845 replies to this topic

[Stinger554]

For cGauss Rifle Option 1 is probably best, Option 2 wouldn't in practice change anything and option 3 is harsh, though I'd find it acceptable.

For lasers I'm fond of option 2 less alpha is good and this way the damage potential doesn't change, you just have to wait .5 seconds it gives the player on the receiving end more time to react and start twisting.

[Alilua]

If I had to choose, option 2 gauss, option 1 lasers. But please put them on test first and make sure to give clan mechs actual quirks to match the IS.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Is it really 'power creep' when a lot of those changes are bringing nerfed weapons back out of the gutter?

[Metachanic]

Phyrce, on 11 June 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Paul addressed the document in his post. it leads to a buff of 74 weapons while nerfing only 4. The power creep associated with that would be detrimental to the game design as the TTK would be insanely reduced with such a change. That would heavily degrade game play overall as everything would be "how big of an alpha can you make and will it one shot an atlas?".

It's worth noting that high-alpha clan laservom is the weapon combination setting the current time-to-kill limits. Community Proposal nerfs focused on the weapons most popular in that play style, and we believe that things like an AC20 velocity buff (no other changes proposed to that weapon) are unlikely to create a brand-new limit on TTK. PGI's statements in NGNG's podcast #164 were taken to heart and discussed in great detail. Things like the proposed Artemis buff certainly could quicken TTK once those weapons reach their usable range, but it's worth noting that brawling is rather weak in the current Quick Play meta, so we picked a level that is not as strong as previous iterations of Artemis to hopefully find a middle ground.

It is worth noting that quite a few of the weapons for which we proposed buffs have minimal presense in the current Quick Play meta. Clan standard ACs, LB5-Xs on both sides, IS PPCs, etc., are all essentially unused, so a great deal of the effort was aimed simply at getting those weapons to a viable state. Did we go too far on some? Possibly. Hard to know without a PTS or live test. But effectively addressing Clan laservom while keeping the play style alive is a good start.

Edited by Metachanic, 11 June 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[process]

Dropping Gauss damage is the easiest option, but won't really address the source of the balance concern, i.e. complementary builds like dual Gauss + 6 er medium lasers. Reticle shake is a gimmick that doesn't actually affect performance. Linking large lasers is annoying and doesn't address medium lasers.

For lasers, ghost heat solution are not fun. Dropping damage with some heat/duration/cooldown offsets would be much more palatable. The problem with energy weapons has always been the high heat cap.

Also, the changes in that balance document mostly sought to improve underused or historically nerfed weapons. Not much, if any, power creep from what I recall.

Edited by process, 11 June 2018 - 01:43 PM.

[TP1024]

Let me add Option 3, possibly in combination with the others:

Make heat decay dependent on heat level. That is (e.g.) If you are at 90% heat, your heat sinks are 2x as effective. If you are between 75% and 90% they are 1.5x as effective. The colder the mech, the longer you have to wait to lose the same amount of heat.

The overall effect would be, that in order to maximize damage output, you have stay in a narrow band at the upper heat levels. This would naturally make alpha-heavy builds much less effective, as you would have wait forever to pull off another alpha strike once your mech is hot. But you would quickly be able to fire off 1-2 weapons. Natuarraly achieving what you are aiming for - while rewarding skilled play.

[Cybercobra]

i actually highly agree with agentice's suggestion.

either cut the heat cap in half, this will result in the vision you want of chainfiring actually being a good thing.

or make it so that the higher heat you go, the more negative effects happen to your mech. (hell maybe even some bonus ones to create a interesting risk reward. like say on high heat weapons are less effective or you risk injuring internals, but you gain more agility)

[Drunk Canuck]

AgentIce, on 11 June 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

The biggest issue that has sabotaged all attempts at balance has been the huge heat capacity that mechs have.

Both sides can Alpha their entire loadout with no consequence.

All mechs get 30 heat cap for no reason other then the TT rules have a ~30 point system of increasing penalties for overheating.

Cut the heat cap in half.
only 15 points base + 1 per heatsink. And only 1 per SHS or DHS.

Clans already have a lower heat threshold, IIRC. It hasn't changed anything either way. Single Heat Sinks are unviable and should never be used in a discussion since literally every Mech in the game should be running them. I'd be fine with a lower capacity so long as double heat sinks across the board get a dissipation increase to be true doubles. 2.0 heat per second would actually make up for a lower capacity for Clans. You'd have a lower threshold, but you'd be able to fire more frequently. At which point you have to decide if you want to have a higher alpha strike or higher DPS, which would make SRM brawlers more efficient because they rely more on making modest sized alpha's but usually don't have the heat dissipation like laser boats do. Clans having the ability to pack more heat sinks into their chassis due to lighter weapons and less slots needed, is also a near impossible thing to balance.

[Eisenhorne]

Phyrce, on 11 June 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

Im actually pretty shocked that everyone seems to be clinging to the "but muh alpha strike!" mentality. If i wanted a head shot kill type game id go play that. People are crying out about allowing the game to be "Different" while simultaneously trying to turn it into COD with robot suits. Simply stunning.

Nerfing that 94 pt alpha though by any of these suggestions would cripple other clan mechs that don't have 94 pt alphas. The Night Gyr for example is very useful with 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL. All these suggestions would ruin that build. Leaving the massive alpha that's only situationaly useful is preferable IMO to destroying other mechs that aren't a problem.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I've talked about the laser vomit issue being due to heat cap, lowering it would severely reduce the current alpha limit, without having as big an effect on IS mechs. Heat cap should be the pillar to a new balancing process.

[Ilfi]

Have you considered buffing bad IS weapons instead of nerfing the three remaining viable Clan weapons? I've essentially abandoned my Clan Mechs because the only things they do are UAC boating, Gauss Vomit and vanilla Laser Vomit. Clan SRMs? Dead. Clan SPLs? Dead. Clan MPLs? Dead. Streaks, ATMs, LRMs? Don't make me laugh.

There's nothing exciting or effective Clans can field except for their hot-as-the-Sun 76'er, and with Gauss spiced in on the heavier paper-armor Assaults. These builds only work in firing line setups because 12 v 12 affords them the space they need to sit on their hands for 15 seconds between alphas.

IS mega-quirks are so wildly above anything Clans can field in the Medium and Heavy tonnage range that these kinds of balance announcements are honestly disappointing.

[NUMBERZero1032]

Instead of nerfing the clan Gauss nonsensically, just buff the IS Gauss, and by that I mean make the IS Gauss 3 tons lighter, wave your hand, and say "ahh yes, the IS have acquired this piece of clan technology." Mix the tech base a little. Just a tiny bit.

Edited by NUMBERZero1032, 12 June 2018 - 02:22 AM.

[Metachanic]

Regarding proposed Clan Gauss Rifle nerfs; the Clan Gauss Rifle is not primarily responsible for the current strength of high-alpha builds, or we would see Clan Gauss Rifles used before equipping a mech with lasers. As it stands, laser-only clan mechs remain preferred in nearly all heavy and some medium chassis, even on lights like the Cougar and Adder. Gauss Rifles are simply a heat-neutral way to add damage on top of mechs that happen to have tonnage available after equipping bog-standard high-alpha laservom builds, specifically assaults like the Mad Cat and Blood Asp. On that basis, it's probably wisest to address laservom first, and independently, then see if Clan Gauss Rifles need attention on a subsequent PTS/patch.

[Drunk Canuck]

Cybercobra, on 11 June 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

i actually highly agree with agentice's suggestion.

either cut the heat cap in half, this will result in the vision you want of chainfiring actually being a good thing.

or make it so that the higher heat you go, the more negative effects happen to your mech. (hell maybe even some bonus ones to create a interesting risk reward. like say on high heat weapons are less effective or you risk injuring internals, but you gain more agility)

I'd be all for more game mechanics, but definitely the Cool Shot + Override + high heat cap combos are an issue. Doesn't help that most of the other Clan weapons like UAC's are pretty garbage as singular or even paired weapons. Crit cannons like LBX's have been nerfed too, which doesn't help. If they got rid of the multiple shell mechanic entirely, I'd be entirely fine with Clan UAC's. Even Clan ER PPC's feel weak for the heat they generate.

WTB PPC's creating brief targeting system jams like MW3 and 4 though.

[PobbestGob]

Cybercobra, on 11 June 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

i actually highly agree with agentice's suggestion.

either cut the heat cap in half, this will result in the vision you want of chainfiring actually being a good thing.

or make it so that the higher heat you go, the more negative effects happen to your mech. (hell maybe even some bonus ones to create a interesting risk reward. like say on high heat weapons are less effective or you risk injuring internals, but you gain more agility)

This. more ghost heat is going in the wrong direction, the whole idea of it is convoluted and unnecessary. reduce the heat cap (especially heat sinks effect on it) and high heat, high alpha builds aren't an issue.

[xUnbreakablex]

So, there is a lot of hot garbage here but I will try to get through this as painlessly as possible for the readers and the staff.

Lore - From a lore perspective this makes no sense as clan tech has always been superior to IS tech.

CW - have you looked at the map? It has not moved much for a reason. Clan tech is lacking severly. We are limited in our effective builds to combat the Inner Sphere Surrats to that which works.

Clan Gauss - Do not touch it. Stop it right now. It is fine as is. The Freebirths have so much flexability with light gauss, gauss, and heavy gauss. Take a kodiak with dual gauss and an annihilator with dual heavy gauss and there is no competition, the heavy gauss wins every time. The range is what makes the weapon semi-useful, although you will probably never see it used in competitive play because the slow rate of fire makes other equally heavy weapons (see UAC20's), much better. If you have to nerf bat it, add the recoil. realistically, leave it alone. My counter argument is IS gets to fire 3 large lasers with a duration much shorter then our large lasers, faster cooldown, and seemingly almost greater range, and that will mess up any mech with guass.

Lasers - ok i got a little chuckle out of this. "often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side." do you even play clan? or CW at all? Competitive drops? I have had entire teams decimated by IS stalkers, battlemasters, and Thunderbolts boating ER large lasers which fire almost as far as clan ER lasers, with a shorter duration and cooldown, and the icing on the cake is they can fire 3 where as we can only fire 2. That third laser means they get 27 damage (not counting any damage bonus quirks) to our 22. Lets not forget that most IS Mechs have bonus armor, structure, and weapon quirks which can easily give them an advantage over an omnimech.

If you reduce clan laser damage to IS levels you will basically be taking lasers out of the game for clans. You will see a shift to more missiles and dakka. Why? Because who wants to shoot 2 er large lasers for 18 damage so you dont incur a heat penalty (which is already greater than IS counterparts) while the IS nukes you with 3 lasers for 27 damage in a shorter duration.

If you cap weapon group fire damage to lasers to 30, you will also see a shift to most likely pulse, dakka, and missiles. Why would i want a capped 30 point alpha with a longer burn time when i can just poke out with a uac 20 and 10 and rip off 60 damage and go back into cover. otherwise i'll need to expose for far too long to get my full weapon volley off and end up getting cored before i can get back into cover.

In Conclusion - do not nerf clan stuff, its already bad enough as it is. If you do I would like to hear your thoughts on how you plan to balance the fact that clan can only fire 2 er larges while the IS gets 3, and how 27 damage will always be superior to your proposed 18 for clans.

[Peiper]

You gotta be kidding me, Chris! Nerf the clans even more??

How about let the two techs be different and finally introduce battle value. Rather than balancing the mechs, you make some mechs more valuable than others. Trade tonnage for battle value. You won't have to balance any mechs ever again.

And for Pete's sake, can you re-couple the engines to agility?

This whole proposal makes me want to walk away from the game. The solution, from the beginning, has been battle value. But have you ever seriously considered trying it?

I voice my vehement disapproval of your ideas.

[panicbutton]

If we’re concerned about avoiding power creep, can’t we just take the values provided in the document along with all of the other weapons system values… do a quick element-wise multiplication by some fraction and then launch it into PTS? Just curious. I recognize we don’t want to push time-to-kill off the nearest cliff, but still might be worth looking into what the effect of those changes would be in a relative sense.

Edited by panicbutton, 11 June 2018 - 01:53 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 3:[/color]

[REDACTED]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 11 June 2018 - 02:23 PM.
Staff Abuse/Insults

[Stinger554]

Metachanic, on 11 June 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Regarding proposed Clan Gauss Rifle nerfs; the Clan Gauss Rifle is not primarily responsible for the current strength of high-alpha builds, or we would see Clan Gauss Rifles used before equipping a mech with lasers. As it stands, laser-only clan mechs remain preferred in nearly all heavy and some medium chassis, even on lights like the Cougar and Adder. Gauss Rifles are simply a heat-neutral way to add damage on top of mechs that happen to have tonnage available after equipping bog-standard high-alpha laservom builds, specifically assaults like the Mad Cat and Blood Asp. On that basis, it's probably wisest to address laservom first, and independently, then see if Clan Gauss Rifles need attention on a subsequent PTS/patch.

Cgauss nerf isn't only coming from the aspect of it's use in laser vom builds. It's from the disparity between IS and Clan Gauss there needs to be a trade off for the 3 ton difference in weight between the two.