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Addressing the current High Alpha Damage Meta


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#41 Phyrce

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:53 PM

View PostMetachanic, on 11 June 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

It's worth noting that high-alpha clan laservom is the weapon combination setting the current time-to-kill limits. Community Proposal nerfs focused on the weapons most popular in that play style, and we believe that things like an AC20 velocity buff (no other changes proposed to that weapon) are unlikely to create a brand-new limit on TTK. PGI's statements in NGNG's podcast #164 were taken to heart and discussed in great detail. Things like the proposed Artemis buff certainly could quicken TTK once those weapons reach their usable range, but it's worth noting that brawling is rather weak in the current Quick Play meta, so we picked a level that is not as strong as previous iterations of Artemis to hopefully find a middle ground.

It is worth noting that quite a few of the weapons for which we proposed buffs have minimal presense in the current Quick Play meta. Clan standard ACs, LB5-Xs on both sides, IS PPCs, etc., are all essentially unused, so a great deal of the effort was aimed simply at getting those weapons to a viable state. Did we go too far on some? Possibly. Hard to know without a PTS or live test. But effectively addressing Clan laservom while keeping the play style alive is a good start.



I absolutely agree with the premise of the change's in that there are weapons that are heavily underutilized for various reasons. I think the disagreement is about how to solve the problem. I guess the question that needs to be answered on a weapon by weapon basis is which weapons are not used be cause they are weak, and which are not used because others are simply too strong.

To be clear, i don't think the statement was to say that all of the suggestions in the document were bad. I think Paul was saying that overall increasing all weapons to match the highest played weapons would have a negative result on the game. Finding a happy medium isn't going to be easy. I absolutely agree with things like velocity changes to the UAC 20 and dropping the heat penalty on the double AC 20 builds for IS. The AC20 nerf directly reduced the viability of mechs like the king crab that rely on those weapons.

I also agree that huge alpha builds are a problem and I do believe that some of the top tier weapon systems need to be brought down in power.

#42 Kill2Blit

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:54 PM

View PostDrunk Canuck, on 11 June 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:


Clans already have a lower heat threshold, IIRC.


there's no difference. base heat capacity is 30 for clan and IS, heat sink increases are the same, 2 for true doubles and 1.5 for external doubles.

#43 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:55 PM

Ok let’s check it out.

Option 1 - gauss nerf
Option 2 - gauss nerf
Option 3 - gauss nerf
Option 4 - lasers nerf
Option 5 - lasers nerf

Option 6:
-return gauss-ppc which was a straight up counter to current cancer clan laservomit meta
-plain buff agility making gauss-ppc harder to use and making brawl stronger

Like seriously you kill the playstyle that is designed to counter long duration clan lasers and nerf mechs’ mobility into oblivion and now admit that you have problems with high alpha-high duration weapons which evaporates those sluggish moving turrets on legs you call mechs? Wow really who in the world could expect that to happen!

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 11 June 2018 - 02:23 PM.


#44 Zh0u

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:58 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 11 June 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

[Redacted]


Edited by Tina Benoit, 11 June 2018 - 02:41 PM.
Staff Abuse/Insults


#45 Bigbacon

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:00 PM

Just make heat freaking matter A LOT MORE!!!!

seriously. You would want alpha that 90 point loadout, go for it but you will insta-pop and die. You have this thing called HEAT which in BT was a serious consideration with serious risk. you didn't go around mashing alpha over and over like we do in MWO.

Make bad things happen as heat rises.
Make even more bad things happen if your heat spikes quickly.
Make heat saturation a thing. You can saturate the mech with heat and bad things happen.

MAKE PEOPLE MANAGE THEIR HEAT.

#46 AgentIce

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

View PostNema Nabojiv, on 11 June 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:


[Redacted]


[Redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 11 June 2018 - 02:42 PM.
Staff Abuse/Insults/Nonconstructive


#47 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:02 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 11 June 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Just make heat freaking matter A LOT MORE!!!!

seriously. You would want alpha that 90 point loadout, go for it but you will insta-pop and die. You have this thing called HEAT which in BT was a serious consideration with serious risk. you didn't go around mashing alpha over and over like we do in MWO.

Make bad things happen as heat rises.
Make even more bad things happen if your heat spikes quickly.
Make heat saturation a thing. You can saturate the mech with heat and bad things happen.

MAKE PEOPLE MANAGE THEIR HEAT.

Another time I wish there was dislike button.

#48 Bigbacon

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:06 PM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 11 June 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Another time I wish there was dislike button.


why because you want to keep EZ mode alpha strike online?

#49 Stinger554

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:06 PM

View PostxUnbreakablex, on 11 June 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

So, there is a lot of hot garbage here but I will try to get through this as painlessly as possible for the readers and the staff.

Lore - From a lore perspective this makes no sense as clan tech has always been superior to IS tech.

CW - have you looked at the map? It has not moved much for a reason. Clan tech is lacking severly. We are limited in our effective builds to combat the Inner Sphere Surrats to that which works.

Clan Gauss - Do not touch it. Stop it right now. It is fine as is. The Freebirths have so much flexability with light gauss, gauss, and heavy gauss. Take a kodiak with dual gauss and an annihilator with dual heavy gauss and there is no competition, the heavy gauss wins every time. The range is what makes the weapon semi-useful, although you will probably never see it used in competitive play because the slow rate of fire makes other equally heavy weapons (see UAC20's), much better. If you have to nerf bat it, add the recoil. realistically, leave it alone. My counter argument is IS gets to fire 3 large lasers with a duration much shorter then our large lasers, faster cooldown, and seemingly almost greater range, and that will mess up any mech with guass.

Lasers - ok i got a little chuckle out of this. "often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side." do you even play clan? or CW at all? Competitive drops? I have had entire teams decimated by IS stalkers, battlemasters, and Thunderbolts boating ER large lasers which fire almost as far as clan ER lasers, with a shorter duration and cooldown, and the icing on the cake is they can fire 3 where as we can only fire 2. That third laser means they get 27 damage (not counting any damage bonus quirks) to our 22. Lets not forget that most IS Mechs have bonus armor, structure, and weapon quirks which can easily give them an advantage over an omnimech.

If you reduce clan laser damage to IS levels you will basically be taking lasers out of the game for clans. You will see a shift to more missiles and dakka. Why? Because who wants to shoot 2 er large lasers for 18 damage so you dont incur a heat penalty (which is already greater than IS counterparts) while the IS nukes you with 3 lasers for 27 damage in a shorter duration.

Lore - Useless as **** when considering balancing a FPS game. Leave it at the door.

Gauss - There needs to be a trade-off for the 3 less tons required to equip cGauss over ISGauss. Doing nothing is unacceptable. Comparing cgauss to Hgauss is not good as they perform different functions and have different engagement ranges; not to mention the various trade-offs required to run Hgauss. cgauss needs to be compared to standard gauss and when compared cgauss is the better weapon system.

Lasers - Ummmm Like have you compared IS laser vom to Clan laser vom at all? Clan wins pretty much every time....

#50 Hal Greaves

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:10 PM

There is not a single clan mech in the top rankings on Solaris. That should say everything that needs to be said about the actual viability of clan mechs vrs inner sphere mechs in a close combat environment.


Seriously, the alpha isn't the problem here. Clans are running out of options to counter IS mechs quick, and it really really really shows in FP. So, unless you want to dump many of the armor and structure quirks IS mechs have, you have to understand that reducing the alpha here isn't going to result in anything.

Please, just stop nerfing the clans. I'm sorry that lesser skilled players cant handle what they bring to the table but you are seriously ruining the actual fun in it with these constant weapon changes.

Bring back gauss-peep meta, buff clan autocannons and SRMS so that clans can ACTUALLY brawl, and then this issue will resolve itself.

Edited by Hal Greaves, 11 June 2018 - 02:10 PM.


#51 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:10 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 11 June 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:


why because you want to keep EZ mode alpha strike online?

Because I play this game in client not on forums like you.

#52 Virtually Dark

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:12 PM

Option 1: Remove IS Light and Regular Gauss charge to reduce skill gap and increase dps.
Option 2: Same as above but increases to range of listed weapons above.
Option 3: Cross Tech.
Option 4: Add X-Pulse Lasers.
Option 5: Make IS lasers same as clan but... They require ammo and Heatsinks become consumables. Quote From VVonka.
Option 6: Take Charging mechanic from Gauss Rifles apply it to all PPC's and give PPC's the ability to track a locked target.
Option 7: Cross Tech.
Option 8: Buff all forms of Auto Cannon Weaponry.
Option 9. Make Clan Lasers Fire Sunshine and Rainbows that increase heat like Flamers and Blind you like being hit by ballistics.
Option 10: Cross Tech.

#53 Tibbnak

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:14 PM

[Redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 14 June 2018 - 12:59 PM.
nonconstructive/meme posts are not constructive feedback to this topic


#54 Cybercobra

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:14 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 11 June 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Just make heat freaking matter A LOT MORE!!!!

seriously. You would want alpha that 90 point loadout, go for it but you will insta-pop and die. You have this thing called HEAT which in BT was a serious consideration with serious risk. you didn't go around mashing alpha over and over like we do in MWO.

Make bad things happen as heat rises.
Make even more bad things happen if your heat spikes quickly.
Make heat saturation a thing. You can saturate the mech with heat and bad things happen.

MAKE PEOPLE MANAGE THEIR HEAT.


this, this this this this this.

#55 Phyrce

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:15 PM

View PostHal Greaves, on 11 June 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

There is not a single clan mech in the top rankings on Solaris. That should say everything that needs to be said about the actual viability of clan mechs vrs inner sphere mechs in a close combat environment.


Seriously, the alpha isn't the problem here. Clans are running out of options to counter IS mechs quick, and it really really really shows in FP. So, unless you want to dump many of the armor and structure quirks IS mechs have, you have to understand that reducing the alpha here isn't going to result in anything.

Please, just stop nerfing the clans. I'm sorry that lesser skilled players cant handle what they bring to the table but you are seriously ruining the actual fun in it with these constant weapon changes.

Bring back gauss-peep meta, buff clan autocannons and SRMS so that clans can ACTUALLY brawl, and then this issue will resolve itself.



Forgive my ignorance but where are you looking at the solaris rankings?

#56 Ed Le Toggaf

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:16 PM

so in retrospec you're gutting unreleased clan mechs before their even out. If you continue at this pace the only mechs that would be worth picking up would be the alrdy grindable IS mechs and any decent heavy or assualt mech paks with a sorta gimmick. So call me up when you release the crusader or the templar. cause unless somethings got a hotrod skin as the bonus for EA then every other mech is just salvage to be picked up with C-bills.

#57 Notorious Meerkat

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:18 PM

I'm just going to opine simply - weaponry nerfs would not be needed if we were to get back the mobility that was HEAVILY nerfed many patches ago. Rolling the damage on your mech used to do wonders. Sure, it helps even now, but given that many chassis have become lethargic walking turrets...

#58 Arend

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:21 PM

Stop this nerf after nerf after nerf crap, make MW:O fun again, make underused bad Weapons vialble and bring back agility!

Community Weapon Balance

Edited by Arend, 11 June 2018 - 02:22 PM.


#59 Doomfist

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:22 PM

View PostxUnbreakablex, on 11 June 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

So, there is a lot of hot garbage here but I will try to get through this as painlessly as possible for the readers and the staff.

Lore - From a lore perspective this makes no sense as clan tech has always been superior to IS tech.

CW - have you looked at the map? It has not moved much for a reason. Clan tech is lacking severly. We are limited in our effective builds to combat the Inner Sphere Surrats to that which works.

Clan Gauss - Do not touch it. Stop it right now. It is fine as is. The Freebirths have so much flexability with light gauss, gauss, and heavy gauss. Take a kodiak with dual gauss and an annihilator with dual heavy gauss and there is no competition, the heavy gauss wins every time. The range is what makes the weapon semi-useful, although you will probably never see it used in competitive play because the slow rate of fire makes other equally heavy weapons (see UAC20's), much better. If you have to nerf bat it, add the recoil. realistically, leave it alone. My counter argument is IS gets to fire 3 large lasers with a duration much shorter then our large lasers, faster cooldown, and seemingly almost greater range, and that will mess up any mech with guass.

Lasers - ok i got a little chuckle out of this. "often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side." do you even play clan? or CW at all? Competitive drops? I have had entire teams decimated by IS stalkers, battlemasters, and Thunderbolts boating ER large lasers which fire almost as far as clan ER lasers, with a shorter duration and cooldown, and the icing on the cake is they can fire 3 where as we can only fire 2. That third laser means they get 27 damage (not counting any damage bonus quirks) to our 22. Lets not forget that most IS Mechs have bonus armor, structure, and weapon quirks which can easily give them an advantage over an omnimech.

If you reduce clan laser damage to IS levels you will basically be taking lasers out of the game for clans. You will see a shift to more missiles and dakka. Why? Because who wants to shoot 2 er large lasers for 18 damage so you dont incur a heat penalty (which is already greater than IS counterparts) while the IS nukes you with 3 lasers for 27 damage in a shorter duration.

If you cap weapon group fire damage to lasers to 30, you will also see a shift to most likely pulse, dakka, and missiles. Why would i want a capped 30 point alpha with a longer burn time when i can just poke out with a uac 20 and 10 and rip off 60 damage and go back into cover. otherwise i'll need to expose for far too long to get my full weapon volley off and end up getting cored before i can get back into cover.

In Conclusion - do not nerf clan stuff, its already bad enough as it is. If you do I would like to hear your thoughts on how you plan to balance the fact that clan can only fire 2 er larges while the IS gets 3, and how 27 damage will always be superior to your proposed 18 for clans.


This.

#60 Lorian Sunrider

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:23 PM

Feels like we are comparing apples to oranges. Clans have higher alphas but are squisher and run hotter. IS has less high alphas, more DPS, more tanky and have stronger quirks.

I'd rather buff other weapons than keep nerfing weapons. Feels like somehow we have less viable weapons now than we did before Civil War jump that introduced new weapons.





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