845 replies to this topic

[Dungeon 206]

PGI / chris / paul
i spent nearly $400 in the first year of playing MWO cause i loved the game so much.
but ever since then i havent spent another cent.
every patch, instead of listening to the community, you implement ill thought through nerfs and changes that NOT ONLY fail to achieve the desired balance, but ALSO dramatically encourage garbage crappy playstyles that immensely lower match quality

im in Tier 1 with the supposed "experienced" players, and even after all your "balance adjustments" which are supposed to help the game,
now today in June 2018, i just saw a match where the losing team only had 1 person get above 200 dmg.
a cougar. 246.
keep ignoring your top players advice pgi / chris / paul
#greatjobpgi/chris/paul

instead of admitting that you have less insight into the actual game than the top players and streamers who actually play this game 9999 times more than you,
you refuse to listen, thinking that you still know best.
your pride is repulsive, and thats what this game is becoming.

[MiZia]

As a mostly FP player perspective i can say that changes made on Clan Mechanics would just make my decision which Faction i should play really easy (guess it ).
As it is i enjoy both sides but if not in a Team id rather go IS (well guess why).
Changes to Clan Vomit would imply much more than only Clans, all IS Mechs would have to be revisited in Quirks (Range, Duration, Cooldown and Heat) and Armor/Structure Values since in a true DPS fight Clans cant stand IS due to lack of Those.

[Phyrce]

DrUnK3nPaNdA, on 12 June 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

Did we play the same Mechwarrior 2? Because I am 100% certain you are misremembering it. MWO uses close to tabletop weapon damage values with double structure and armor, plus quirks and skills that even further increase that armor and structure. Mechwarrior 2 was a 1:1 conversion. So weapons did literally more than twice as much damage as they do in MWO. It also didn't have stupid systems like ghost heat to further nerf damage, nor did it have nerfed heat sinks that do less to prevent appreciable DPS. Moreover a single leg destroyed would completely immobilize a mech, as it does in tabletop.

The idea is not to be another random FPS, but instead to actually be SOMETHING like the setting that the game is supposed to take place in. In that setting mechs can be and are quickly destroyed.

The difference is that weapons are harder to hit with. I would be very unopposed to adding reticle bloom to the game, decreasing weapon accuracy when you rapidly change aimpoint or move past a certain percentage of your speed. Hell, that would actually make light mechs more interesting for their improved ability to run and gun since even 'walking' they're faster than most heavy mechs 'running.' That also kills the very uncanonical strategy of twisting (I do it, too. I'm not bad at it, but I think it's stupid because the mech hitboxes make some mechs WILDLY more or less viable based on a mechanic that exists nowhere but in MWO.) Finally it makes targeting computers and pulse lasers more interesting options because their accuracy can actually be improved by reducing the inaccuracy from running or frantic aiming, more akin to their canonical counterparts. It makes the game more deliberate and more like actual armored combat as well as the tabletop game. And it fixes the problem of high damage alphas without feeling like you're shooting wet noodles. I'm sure people would complain it takes the skill out of the game, but the VAST majority of shooters (all with more populous and developed competitive scenes than MWO) impart accuracy penalties for certain things like running or jumping.

Not misremembering anything, you seem to have some rose tinted glasses on though. MW2 only had clan mechs, no inner sphere so there was no need to balance weapon systems. You had full mobility control with jump jets, you could actively negate LRMS and streaks by using your jump jets to charge straight at them and then going to the side at the last second.

It had a skill ceiling around concealing your latency by simply slow jumping your mech around, full time on target with lasers wasnt a thing in C1 play. Ballistics had no recoil until MW3 etc.. MW2 was the prime of Mechwarrior games.

Twisting isn't uncanonical some of the most tense fights i ever read in the books was about a pilot positioning while waiting for his weapons to clear a jam or cooldown.

Edited by Phyrce, 12 June 2018 - 02:01 AM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Mighty Spike, on 12 June 2018 - 01:00 AM, said:

^That

I hear all these people saying invest in faction warfare to save game. lol. As someone who plays nothing but faction. NO. We do not exist. That mode died. Nothing to see here.

I say this because the remaining playerbase of that mode has learned the less PGI involvement the better. Everything they have done has just driven off more and more people. The only reason we have an endless stream of T5 underhivers to farm is because its the only place in the game to get mechbays for free. If PGI does anything to the mode again it will die. Because everything PGI does drives the playerbase away. At this point thats not opinion, But fact.

[Drunk Canuck]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 13 June 2018 - 01:53 PM.
unconstructive

[Bud Crue]

Nice OP.
Very reasonable.

Alas, you people have shown that you will do what you will and damn what we say here.
It's your game,you know best, we, the community, aren't all speaking together with "consensus" and "overwhelming support" for something that can be approached and implemented "incrementally" since PGI "doesn't do big changes". It is after all your game and you "know best", yada, yada, yada.

Nevertheless, I will give you the benefit of my great and massive soul crushing doubt, that you are being forthright in your OP, and will simply plead with you to do one thing: don't break or make currently baseline or under performing builds worse with whatever it is you decide to do.

That's it. That is my one request.

So, if you decide to make gauss lower damage or have some goofy desync mechanism, or drop new ghost heat on 5ERML, or 2HLL, or whatever, to address the dreaded 94 point alphas of a mere 2 clan mechs, please give the mechs that don't run this super combo of weapons, but merely some aspect of that combo and which are not OP, some offsetting benefit so they are not outright trashed. Ok? Is that straightforward enough? I can put up some graphs wherein we illustrate that a 2HLL Shadow Cat is not deserving of a nerf just because you want to nerf a 94 point alphs Deathstrike, if it would help.

Edited by Bud Crue, 12 June 2018 - 03:11 AM.

[Guile Votoms]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 18 June 2018 - 02:25 PM.
discussing moderation

[Vellron2005]

It seems to me that the principal objective here is to nerf clan laservomit alpha, and make it similar to that of IS alphas.. but.. nowhere is it mentioned lowering the incredibly high armor and structure bonuses IS mechs have and clan mechs don't..

Right now, IS mechs can out-last Clan mechs easily.. sure they have a lower alpha, and a top-tier brawler can take advantage of that.. but most common players can't easily out-brawl an IS equivalent mech.

I'm just gonna give a few examples... Urbanmech (also known as mini-atlas), which can easily sub as a heavy in terms of armor and endurance.. and Assassin - who is also outperforming both in firepower and toughness..

We all know IS and clan mechs are different.. It's always been so that IS mechs are tougher, and clan mechs are glass cannons with more damage... If you equalize the damage, you have to equalize the toughness, and then you throw out the different tech bases out the window..

And no, longer range on clan weapons doesn't mean alot, when IS ranges are quirked to be comparable, and IS weapons are colder.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Times like this I really miss roadbeer......

[SaltiestRaccoon]

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

The upfront damage of Clan lasers, and the ease of access the clans have at supplementing their fire with heavy upfront damage, at decent ranges, for minimal tonnage directly contributes not just to those Alpha's at the top, but a general lopsidedness in most build performance throughout the entire clan / IS lineup and often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side. While the popular adage sees the belief that only a handful of 'mechs consist as "problem" 'Mechs, the reality is that as a whole, the overall performance of even an average clan 'Mech can put up are often consistently higher then what the average IS 'Mech can put up provided they have access to a certain number of energy hardpoints. This will be a change that is targeted to either raise the skill cap needed to utilized mass Clan laser fire, or will be reduced to a level that does not completely overshadow the IS equivalent weapons.

I legitimately don't understand your reasoning here. So you're saying that Clan mechs specialized for energy hardpoints are better than Inner Sphere mechs specialized for the same. Are you also intending to nerf Inner Sphere ballistics? Because the same is true there. IS has far better ballistic options even per ton. Clans mechs seem to consistently under-perform using anything BUT laser vomit. If you want to see more variety, add more viability to other Clan weapon systems, because the only way a Clan mech can keep up with an IS mech that's gone for a ballistic focused build is to go for an energy focused build.If you legitimately think it's overpowered, then why are these 94 damage alpha mechs seeing little high-level competitive play?

Other users have very astutely pointed out that looking at measurable results in competitive play of your game, that not only does a Gauss/HLL Direwolf not seem to do well, but that Clan mechs in general are not as heavily utilized for high level play. This being the case, there is probably a simple answer: Clan mechs are unpopular because they are markedly worse already. Nerfing them to force weapon diversity is not the solution here.

First off, you need to consider the situation as it is: IS right now is specialized more towards ballistics. Clan is specialized more towards energy. Is that actually a problem? Clan is more specialized for high damage alpha-strikes. IS is focused more on sustainable DPS. Is that a problem? IS is significantly tankier while Clan tends to do more damage. Is that a problem? In my opinion, I would say no to all of those things. Those are the differences that make different factions in games actually interesting instead of boringly homogenized.

The trouble is that as it stands presently, the IS advantages do outstrip the Clans' advantage, again, as evidenced by statistics available within your own game, so you'll have to forgive me, but I don't know how nerfing something that's already clearly (if very slightly) underpowered improves game balance.

Edited by DrUnK3nPaNdA, 12 June 2018 - 02:55 AM.

[D V Devnull]

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

So as Paul stated in his overview post found here, we will be looking to directly address the current state of clan Alphas and bring them closer into alignment with the capabilities on the Inner Sphere side of the tech factions. The current trends of sustainable Alphas on the clan side reaching up to 94 damage when the IS typically cap out at around 60-65 effective damage without serious build concessions is too great of a divide to have fully slanted into the corner of a single faction and we will be taking steps to bring them closer into alignment.

<<<massive snip>>>

Additionally, while we know that many like to utilize other forms of social media to express feedback, in this instance we request that the primary discussion for this topic be centralized within this thread as there will be multiple eyes on these discussion topics.

Okay, first off... 15 pages, 4 days, AND NO FRONT PAGE NEWS ANNOUNCEMENT... Why wasn't this made visible there for discussion right from the start? I don't have time to sit through reading that kind of amount racked up in an extremely short time, dangit!

Ya know what... I'm just gonna stick my thoughts below, sectionally separated by horizontal bars. Oh, and CAPS/bold in order to make things more easy to take notes on.

---

Anyway, I've looked at your options, PGI Staff... I hate to say it, but they MISSED some INNER SPHERE designs which get away with IGNORING Ghost Heat...

• King Crab and a STAGGERING 100 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Gauss, 3 Large Pulse, and 4 MRM 10, to start.
  
• Annihilator and an 80+ ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 LB20-X, 2 LB10-X, and at least 4+ Medium Lasers.
  
• Annihilator OR Mauler, also with a DEADLY 86 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, and 6 Medium Pulse Lasers.
  
• Fafnir and a MINIMUM 90 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, 2 MRM 10 (or Larger), and 4 Medium Lasers.
  
• HighLander and a MINIMUM 84 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 3 MRM 20, and 4 Medium Pulse Lasers
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 3 ROTARY AC2, including the Dragon and RoughNeck, blowing WELL BEYOND A 90 ALPHA as well.
  
• RoughNeck and a POSSIBLE UNHOLY 138 ALPHA that it MIGHT do. Try 3 Rotary AC2, with 4 MRM 10 to do the seasoning. (YEOWCH!!!)
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 2 ROTARY AC5, such as the BushWacker, WarHammer, and/or Thanatos, blowing WAY OUT PAST THE 100 ALPHA LINE, DEFINITELY FURTHER INCREASED BY ANY WEAPON.

...and given time, I COULD CRANK OUT A LOT MORE EXAMPLES. This leaves me to ask, albeit that close range for the Inner Sphere (balanced by I.S. Armor, Clan Range, and Heat already present against Clans) is occasionally needed... Where is this 35-point disparity that you're talking about? I DO NOT SEE IT, PERIOD. The Inner Sphere has the Tech, Armor, and Power already to more than wreck the Clans... and with UNUSUAL EASE.

---

Now PGI Staff, on top of this, you speak of restricting through Ghost Heat on Clan Lasers. If you do that, you ALSO need to RESTRICT INNER SPHERE MEDIUM PULSE LASERS. Or, you ALSO NEED to Buff Cooldown/Heat on Clan Lasers, without changing their Damage Value under the restricted Ghost Heat states. Otherwise the Inner Sphere gets away constantly with options that punch out a RATHER NASTY ALPHA just from Laser Weaponry alone, and with impunity!

---

PGI Staff, I hope you have read this far. If anything, I can present you with a NEW OPTION. That is to...

• DOUBLE ALL ARMOR VALUES on all Mechs. (This is an 'ONLINE Non-RPG MMO' and Armor/Structure [collectively "Health"] is something people tend to whine over when the experience is uncomfortable due to being unforgiving.)
  
• Narrow LRM/ATM Spread by at least 0.2 and MRM/SRM Spread by 0.1, possibly further. It combos properly with the Armor Increase, as it doesn't leave Missile Weapons underpowered.
  
• Increase Missile Health by 20%, preventing a 3+ AMS Setup from being 100% denying of damage to opponents.
  
• Re-Extend the LRM/MRM BaseLine Range by 50 Meters. This will deal with Hiding Snipers causing Unbalanced Problems on the battlefields.
  
• Extend SRM Range by 50 Meters, I.S. SSRM Range by 75 Meters, Clan SSRM Range by 40 Meters, and ATM Range by 100 Meters.

...but ALL of these changes must be implemented together in one go. Particularly in the 1st item's case, they WILL end the "Time To Kill" Issues that people keep whining over. They WILL provide Missile Users with better ability to Support their teammates as they should. Plus, they MOST DEFINITELY put a Nerf on ALL OTHER WEAPONS into being FULLY BALANCED for both TTK and Alpha Potential. As a finisher, they also force more TeamWork if a side is going to Play Better and Win Together.

---

With that, I have posted all that was on my mind about this topic. I have BOTH some Clan and some Inner Sphere Mechs, and play with ALL of them. At some point in the future, I plan to grab another I.S. Loyalty or Merc Contract, as I first started out there. I don't want to see the Clans left feeling like Weak Paper Sheets, but Nerfing their Ballistics/Energy would cause exactly that problem, where buffing BOTH I.S. & Clan Missiles would have a Positive Balancing Effect. I don't know if anything close to these thoughts above have been mentioned, but if they have, then my apologies for the duplicate notes. To PGI's Staff, and ANYONE ELSE who reads this, I frankly hope the rest of you have a nice day, and that no changes that would be glaringly and determinately unbalancing (even in the opinion of a Casual-Class Player) happens to MWO while going forward from here.

~Mr. D. V. "Frankly seeing no reason to Nerf Energy/Ballistics on the Clan Side of these matters/issues..." Devnull





(p.s.: This post took several hours to write... These thoughts are NOT a cheap shot in the dark, and a lot of things had to be checked over at least three times.)





[Single Edit by Post Author to ONLY attach a Quote at the top of the post.]

[One Extra Edit by Post Author to fix a Single Alpha Damage Number... it was 10 points too high.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 12 June 2018 - 04:05 AM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

Okay, first off... 15 pages, 4 days, AND NO FRONT PAGE NEWS ANNOUNCEMENT... Why wasn't this made visible there for discussion right from the start? I don't have time to sit through reading that kind of amount racked up in an extremely short time, dangit!

Ya know what... I'm just gonna stick my thoughts below, sectionally separated by horizontal bars. Oh, and CAPS/bold in order to make things more easy to take notes on.

---

Anyway, I've looked at your options, PGI Staff... I hate to say it, but they MISSED some INNER SPHERE designs which get away with IGNORING Ghost Heat...

• King Crab and a STAGGERING 100 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Gauss, 3 Large Pulse, and 4 MRM 10, to start.
  
• Annihilator and an 80+ ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 LB20-X, 2 LB10-X, and at least 4+ Medium Lasers.
  
• Annihilator OR Mauler, also with a DEADLY 96 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, and 6 Medium Pulse Lasers.
  
• Fafnir and a MINIMUM 90 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, 2 MRM 10 (or Larger), and 4 Medium Lasers.
  
• HighLander and a MINIMUM 84 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 3 MRM 20, and 4 Medium Pulse Lasers
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 3 ROTARY AC2, including the Dragon and RoughNeck, blowing WELL BEYOND A 90 ALPHA as well.
  
• RoughNeck and a POSSIBLE UNHOLY 138 ALPHA that it MIGHT do. Try 3 Rotary AC2, with 4 MRM 10 to do the seasoning. (YEOWCH!!!)
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 2 ROTARY AC5, such as the BushWacker, WarHammer, and/or Thanatos, blowing WAY OUT PAST THE 100 ALPHA LINE, DEFINITELY FURTHER INCREASED BY ANY WEAPON.

...and given time, I COULD CRANK OUT A LOT MORE EXAMPLES. This leaves me to ask, albeit that close range for the Inner Sphere (balanced by I.S. Armor, Clan Range, and Heat already present against Clans) is occasionally needed... Where is this 35-point disparity that you're talking about? I DO NOT SEE IT, PERIOD. The Inner Sphere has the Tech, Armor, and Power already to more than wreck the Clans... and with UNUSUAL EASE.

---

Now PGI Staff, on top of this, you speak of restricting through Ghost Heat on Clan Lasers. If you do that, you ALSO need to RESTRICT INNER SPHERE MEDIUM PULSE LASERS. Or, you ALSO NEED to Buff Cooldown/Heat on Clan Lasers, without changing their Damage Value under the restricted Ghost Heat states. Otherwise the Inner Sphere gets away constantly with options that punch out a RATHER NASTY ALPHA just from Laser Weaponry alone, and with impunity!

---

PGI Staff, I hope you have read this far. If anything, I can present you with a NEW OPTION. That is to...

• DOUBLE ALL ARMOR VALUES on all Mechs. (This is an 'ONLINE Non-RPG MMO' and Armor/Structure [collectively "Health"] is something people tend to whine over when the experience is uncomfortable due to being unforgiving.)
  
• Narrow LRM/ATM Spread by at least 0.2 and MRM/SRM Spread by 0.1, possibly further. It combos properly with the Armor Increase, as it doesn't leave Missile Weapons underpowered.
  
• Increase Missile Health by 20%, preventing a 3+ AMS Setup from being 100% denying of damage to opponents.
  
• Re-Extend the LRM/MRM BaseLine Range by 50 Meters. This will deal with Hiding Snipers causing Unbalanced Problems on the battlefields.
  
• Extend SRM Range by 50 Meters, I.S. SSRM Range by 75 Meters, Clan SSRM Range by 40 Meters, and ATM Range by 100 Meters.

...but ALL of these changes must be implemented together in one go. Particularly in the 1st item's case, they WILL end the "Time To Kill" Issues that people keep whining over. They WILL provide Missile Users with better ability to Support their teammates as they should. Plus, they MOST DEFINITELY put a Nerf on ALL OTHER WEAPONS into being FULLY BALANCED for both TTK and Alpha Potential. As a finisher, they also force more TeamWork if a side is going to Play Better and Win Together.

---

With that, I have posted all that was on my mind about this topic. I have BOTH some Clan and some Inner Sphere Mechs, and play with ALL of them. At some point in the future, I plan to grab another I.S. Loyalty or Merc Contract, as I first started out there. I don't want to see the Clans left feeling like Weak Paper Sheets, but Nerfing their Ballistics/Energy would cause exactly that problem, where buffing BOTH I.S. & Clan Missiles would have a Positive Balancing Effect. I don't know if anything close to these thoughts above have been mentioned, but if they have, then my apologies for the duplicate notes. To PGI's Staff, and ANYONE ELSE who reads this, I frankly hope the rest of you have a nice day, and that no changes that would be glaringly and determinately unbalancing (even in the opinion of a Casual-Class Player) happens to MWO while going forward from here.

~Mr. D. V. "Frankly seeing no reason to Nerf Energy/Ballistics on the Clan Side of these matters/issues..." Devnull





(p.s.: This post took several hours to write... These thoughts are NOT a cheap shot in the dark, and a lot of things had to be checked over at least three times.)

What part of clan OP dont you get? LOL

[Guile Votoms]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 13 June 2018 - 01:57 PM.
unconstructive

[D V Devnull]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 June 2018 - 03:03 AM, said:

<<<snip>>>

What part of clan OP dont you get? LOL

Obviously, that's sarcasm. Clans are NOT OP, period.

EDIT :: Now, please pardon me while I go attach a much-needed quote to the top of my post...

~D. V. "It's glaringly obvious." Devnull

Edited by D V Devnull, 12 June 2018 - 03:17 AM.

[Amerante]

What I would love to see, is to keep the clan weapons power and their weapon identity, but actually limiting the alphas in other ways. even if it would be arbitrary like you can fire only 2 weapons every 0.5sec.
So the aim is to increase TTK, and lower pinpoint alphas.

What I propose is to change the heat system, and lower the heatcap to a really low level. But every weapon instead of spiking the heat should just apply a heating duration, meaning it heats the mech for 10sec (like one round in tt), or for 5 sec (for the speeded up rate of fire). In other words it would be like a negative cooling?. This way you heatsinks would also work as a heatcap itself, if you are shooting weapons that can be handled by a the heatsinks, you are fine, plus you would have some room with a cap itself, like 10-15?

But generally what my aim would be to prevent/discourage the usage of many weapons in the same time.

[AgentIce]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 13 June 2018 - 01:58 PM.
unconstructive

[NUMBERZero1032]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

Okay, first off...

No.


Anyway, PGI, try un-nerfing agility again.
Consider that the best IS alpha can only be achieved via spreadfire weapons, but the clan alpha is achieved through pinpoint weapons. Un-nerfing agility allows mechs to spread the damage quicker from lasers. It increases the skill ceiling, even, and gives people something to learn and work on.

[FuzzyNZ]

Finally! I like the idea!!

Thank you Chris and Paul - keep up the good work!!

[Evonpire]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

Okay, first off... 15 pages, 4 days, AND NO FRONT PAGE NEWS ANNOUNCEMENT... Why wasn't this made visible there for discussion right from the start? I don't have time to sit through reading that kind of amount racked up in an extremely short time, dangit!

Ya know what... I'm just gonna stick my thoughts below, sectionally separated by horizontal bars. Oh, and CAPS/bold in order to make things more easy to take notes on.

---

Anyway, I've looked at your options, PGI Staff... I hate to say it, but they MISSED some INNER SPHERE designs which get away with IGNORING Ghost Heat...

• King Crab and a STAGGERING 100 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Gauss, 3 Large Pulse, and 4 MRM 10, to start.
  
• Annihilator and an 80+ ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 LB20-X, 2 LB10-X, and at least 4+ Medium Lasers.
  
• Annihilator OR Mauler, also with a DEADLY 96 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, and 6 Medium Pulse Lasers.
  
• Fafnir and a MINIMUM 90 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 2 Heavy Gauss, 2 MRM 10 (or Larger), and 4 Medium Lasers.
  
• HighLander and a MINIMUM 84 ALPHA that it CAN do. Try 3 MRM 20, and 4 Medium Pulse Lasers
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 3 ROTARY AC2, including the Dragon and RoughNeck, blowing WELL BEYOND A 90 ALPHA as well.
  
• RoughNeck and a POSSIBLE UNHOLY 138 ALPHA that it MIGHT do. Try 3 Rotary AC2, with 4 MRM 10 to do the seasoning. (YEOWCH!!!)
  
• Anything INNER SPHERE with 2 ROTARY AC5, such as the BushWacker, WarHammer, and/or Thanatos, blowing WAY OUT PAST THE 100 ALPHA LINE, DEFINITELY FURTHER INCREASED BY ANY WEAPON.

...and given time, I COULD CRANK OUT A LOT MORE EXAMPLES. This leaves me to ask, albeit that close range for the Inner Sphere (balanced by I.S. Armor, Clan Range, and Heat already present against Clans) is occasionally needed... Where is this 35-point disparity that you're talking about? I DO NOT SEE IT, PERIOD. The Inner Sphere has the Tech, Armor, and Power already to more than wreck the Clans... and with UNUSUAL EASE.

---

Now PGI Staff, on top of this, you speak of restricting through Ghost Heat on Clan Lasers. If you do that, you ALSO need to RESTRICT INNER SPHERE MEDIUM PULSE LASERS. Or, you ALSO NEED to Buff Cooldown/Heat on Clan Lasers, without changing their Damage Value under the restricted Ghost Heat states. Otherwise the Inner Sphere gets away constantly with options that punch out a RATHER NASTY ALPHA just from Laser Weaponry alone, and with impunity!

---

PGI Staff, I hope you have read this far. If anything, I can present you with a NEW OPTION. That is to...

• DOUBLE ALL ARMOR VALUES on all Mechs. (This is an 'ONLINE Non-RPG MMO' and Armor/Structure [collectively "Health"] is something people tend to whine over when the experience is uncomfortable due to being unforgiving.)
  
• Narrow LRM/ATM Spread by at least 0.2 and MRM/SRM Spread by 0.1, possibly further. It combos properly with the Armor Increase, as it doesn't leave Missile Weapons underpowered.
  
• Increase Missile Health by 20%, preventing a 3+ AMS Setup from being 100% denying of damage to opponents.
  
• Re-Extend the LRM/MRM BaseLine Range by 50 Meters. This will deal with Hiding Snipers causing Unbalanced Problems on the battlefields.
  
• Extend SRM Range by 50 Meters, I.S. SSRM Range by 75 Meters, Clan SSRM Range by 40 Meters, and ATM Range by 100 Meters.

...but ALL of these changes must be implemented together in one go. Particularly in the 1st item's case, they WILL end the "Time To Kill" Issues that people keep whining over. They WILL provide Missile Users with better ability to Support their teammates as they should. Plus, they MOST DEFINITELY put a Nerf on ALL OTHER WEAPONS into being FULLY BALANCED for both TTK and Alpha Potential. As a finisher, they also force more TeamWork if a side is going to Play Better and Win Together.

---

With that, I have posted all that was on my mind about this topic. I have BOTH some Clan and some Inner Sphere Mechs, and play with ALL of them. At some point in the future, I plan to grab another I.S. Loyalty or Merc Contract, as I first started out there. I don't want to see the Clans left feeling like Weak Paper Sheets, but Nerfing their Ballistics/Energy would cause exactly that problem, where buffing BOTH I.S. & Clan Missiles would have a Positive Balancing Effect. I don't know if anything close to these thoughts above have been mentioned, but if they have, then my apologies for the duplicate notes. To PGI's Staff, and ANYONE ELSE who reads this, I frankly hope the rest of you have a nice day, and that no changes that would be glaringly and determinately unbalancing (even in the opinion of a Casual-Class Player) happens to MWO while going forward from here.

~Mr. D. V. "Frankly seeing no reason to Nerf Energy/Ballistics on the Clan Side of these matters/issues..." Devnull





(p.s.: This post took several hours to write... These thoughts are NOT a cheap shot in the dark, and a lot of things had to be checked over at least three times.)





[Single Edit by Post Author to ONLY attach a Quote at the top of the post.]

I have never in my entire team in IS faction play experience seen build 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Big Alpha doesn't mean overpowered build, Direstar (Max Erppc direwolf for the uninitiated) for example isn't op but has a stupidly inflated alpha and will die after shooting it.

No IS medium pulses don't need changing, most medium lasers are fine it's heavy larges that could use some tweaking as it's damage for tonnage is nuts and it's heat nor range justifies that damage. Also by the way Heavy Guass is not overpowered I'm seeing most people say that it's op have never actually took a like at the weapon it has extremely high damage but has a extremely low range to justify that, meanwhile the hll does not have the range to justify its damage.

Also last note, please try some of those builds you'll change your mind.

(My English may not be too well I'm bilingual in French and English and sometimes its hard to keep track of both languages)

[SmokedJag]

I am skipping the intermediate sniping pages. SIAP.

Chris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

So as Paul stated in his overview post found here, we will be looking to directly address the current state of clan Alphas and bring them closer into alignment with the capabilities on the Inner Sphere side of the tech factions. The current trends of sustainable Alphas on the clan side reaching up to 94 damage when the IS typically cap out at around 60-65 effective damage without serious build concessions is too great of a divide to have fully slanted into the corner of a single faction and we will be taking steps to bring them closer into alignment.

You are broadening the problem beyond what it is. Very few Clan 'Mechs can run double Gauss + lasers + heatsinks to use them (as you are correctly discarding gimmick builds). This is due to hardpoint or tonnage limitations or both. List of 'Mechs that *can* run and back up double Gauss:

Night Gyr
Supernova Boiler (max achievable Alpha without ghost heat is 76 but it can handle the Gauss comfortably).
Mad Cat Mk.II - 1
Mad Cat Mk. II Deathstrike
Blood Asp
Dire Wolf
Kodiak 3 (no one uses it for this, but it's possible)

Clan heavies can't run this setup and most Clan assaults are not designed for it. The Night Gyr is also borderline as the most it can tease out is 83 damage and that requires getting pretty gimmicky. It still can work with 4 tons clear for Gauss ammo though so I included it.

Single Gauss + lasers fits in the acceptable damage range already. So it's not worth discussing.

That's it. So the question isn't even so much as "are Clan assaults a problem" as "are these specific Clan assaults a problem played this way?"

It's relevant that only heavyweight Clan assaults can do this because of the possible changes you propose.

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[color=orange]Base Direction[/color]

To streamline discussion on the topic, it's best to think of solutions that we will be looking into following two overall approaches that we can take when looking at individual changes:

• Changes that result in Desynced fire as the optimal method of fire to reward the clans overall higher damage outputs.
  
• Reduction in baseline Damage output to something that is much better aligned to what the Inner Sphere is capable of keeping up with.

Changes that target more de-synchronized fire will keep the overall damage outputs and performance values of the Clan weapons at their current state, but will require players to break up their fire to optimally use. This can further play into the asymmetry between the two tech factions by allowing the Clans to keep their higher baseline values, but require a higher amount of trigger discipline skill to keep the reticle on target across multiple shots to make the most out of their damage output.

Because these loadouts only fit on Clan assaults, there is a problem making them take more face time to deliver them. Clan assaults are not designed to tank. The Dire Whale is quite fragile if just standing there, which is a fine tradeoff for it having the ability to two-shot assaults or kill lighter/damaged 'Mechs outright. That's what the Dire Wolf has always been in BT/MW. Difficult to use, God help you if you face tank it. It will remain a really bad idea to do this regardless, just worsening quality of life a little for Dire Wolfs (which are hardly OP because of their other shortcomings).

The Boiler can't achieve a truly high spike build either, although it can be in 75+ band much more comfortably than the Night Gyr.

Excluding the KDK-3 build no one runs, the remaining offenders (MkII, Blood Asp) are 90 tonners with no defensive quirks. While they are much better laid out than a Dire Wolf, they're still no Annihilator. Requiring more exposure would nerf them without compensation which is a problem because two are pay-only 'Mechs. While both can kind of stand a nerf of some kind, this is difficult to achieve by nerfing weapons as I will go into below.

I'll also note that PGI was responsible for the design of the most dangerous weapon boat offender - the Deathstrike. Sure it comes with UAC but the potential for Dire Wolf+ firepower in-line with the cockpit was obvious.

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[color=#ffa500]Options[/color]

What is described bellow are some of the options we are considering for addressing this. These are all individual things being explored, and should not be seen as an "all or nothing" series of changes so much as what options we have on the table to address the above points. We are divulging these things to spur discussion on the matter and monitor what is considered the best way forward to address this particular issue. Based on feedback received, we will more then likely only integrate either a single larger change to a single item, or a series of smaller changes across multiple items depending on community feedback on overall direction.

[color=#FFA500]Clan Gauss Rifles[/color]

The 3 less tons needed to equip Clan Gauss rifles need to come with meaningful give and take compared to their heavier IS equivalents. Off of two clan Gauss rifles, the 6 saved tons over their IS counterparts is often plenty of tonnage to compliment the weapons with payloads that their IS counterparts are often strapped to compete with. This will be adjusted to offer fairer give and take between the two tech base's rifles.

[color=#FFA500]Option 1: [/color]

• Upfront damage reduced to something more in-line for the tonnage invested in the weapon, Other attributes adjusted to keep the same current DPS.

[color=#FFA500]Option 2: [/color]

• The Clan Gauss rifle is given a recoil effect similar to, but not as intense as, the Heavy Gauss rifle. No other attributes are changed.

[color=#FFA500]Option 3: [/color]

• The Clan Gauss Rifle and all Clan Large Class Lasers are linked into the same heat penalty group.

Nerfing Clan Gauss hurts *all* Clan 'Mechs that build around a Gauss, which is a lot of them, all of which deal alpha strikes in the "acceptable" range as-is. This is nerfing things that aren't the problem.

Linking lasers with Gauss will not work because probably the best way of playing these things to begin with is the Gauss slugs being "beam riders." Fire laser and Gauss triggers at same time, discharging the lasers and charging the Gauss, then fire the Gauss slugs into the laser burn. Funny thing is that while it isn't intended for this, the Gauss charge guarantees you won't trip ghost heat with the lasers. So if this change was made it would not impact these builds at all.

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[color=#FFA500]Clan Lasers:[/color]

The upfront damage of Clan lasers, and the ease of access the clans have at supplementing their fire with heavy upfront damage, at decent ranges, for minimal tonnage directly contributes not just to those Alpha's at the top, but a general lopsidedness in most build performance throughout the entire clan / IS lineup and often sees the Clan 'Mechs with access to a large number of energy hard points consistently outperform equivalent 'Mechs on the IS side. While the popular adage sees the belief that only a handful of 'mechs consist as "problem" 'Mechs, the reality is that as a whole, the overall performance of even an average clan 'Mech can put up are often consistently higher then what the average IS 'Mech can put up provided they have access to a certain number of energy hardpoints. This will be a change that is targeted to either raise the skill cap needed to utilized mass Clan laser fire, or will be reduced to a level that does not completely overshadow the IS equivalent weapons.

[color=#FFA500]Option 1: [/color]

• Upfront damage is reduced to IS equivalent levels. Superior range values are kept.
  
• Instead of superior upfront damage, we can reduce the cool-downs, heat, and other attributes to move the natural boosted per-turn damage that the Clan weapons are historically known for in the fiction, as a higher rate of fire leaving them overall where they are now, but shifting the added damage perks away from Boosted Alpha strikes and more towards higher overall DPS. Keeping closer alpha damage

[color=#FFA500]Option 2: [/color]

• Clan Laser's heat scale triggers set to 30 damage caps similar to their IS counterparts. All other weapon attributes remain unaffected.
  
• This will keep the superior damage for the weapons as it is now, but mass lasers will come with a higher skill ceiling in order to effectively utilize the entire payload in combat.

It's been said before (specifically with the unannounced laser change) but the problem with nerfing Clan lasers is that it nerfs everything besides the Gauss boats worse than it nerfs them. Because they're using double Gauss to begin with. Double Gauss is the best weapon system in the game and moreover it is the least impacted by laser ghost heat because, with it contributing no heat, you can still eat large penalties and stay running. For example, even after the PPC/Gauss heat merge, firing two Gauss lets you still fire 2xGauss/1PPC and stay running while the 'Mechs that don't have tonnage for more than 2xPPC and 1 Gauss can't use it because of the PPC baseline heat. Moreover, the 2xGauss pilot knows he can do this because he can fire ice cold alphas for his next exchange or two that still have to be respected because its 30 pinpoint damage.

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[color=#ffa500]In Closing:[/color]

As stated above, we will not be looking to integrate everything at once, but instead focus on player feedback, concerns, and opinions, and move forward for addressing this particular issue. If the community can produce an alternative solution that meets the same intended goals of reducing Clan upfront damage alpha from its current 94 damage peak, to instead peak off closer to the 60-65 damage peak the IS reaches without serious build concessions, as outlined in Paul's overview post, then we are open to implementing that solution provided its technical feasibility.

Additionally, while we know that many like to utilize other forms of social media to express feedback, in this instance we request that the primary discussion for this topic be centralized within this thread as there will be multiple eyes on these discussion topics.

I've got a more direct solution for going after gigaspike alphas - nerf the Deathstrike. Specifically, change the hardpoints in the torsos to 1E 1M/B and knock the Deathstrike back to a maximum laser alpha of 56. That solves two problems, the second being that the Deathstrike is flat-out superior P2W over the base MkII-1, rather than just different.

Dire Wolf doesn't need nerfs and can run so many different things it will still remain a bad idea to stare at. Blood Asp is too new to nerf and its weapon locations aren't as dangerous as the Deathstrike.

In general, I think the faction balance thing is also the wrong way to approach this. Faction Warfare is not played by most of the community bar events and isn't a focus of the Solaris 7 branding either. The top-tier Clan assaults are, for most players "just" the capstone item in the game, the expensive thing that is worth it once you've worked your way up to that. QP - and it is QP where these builds are used, Solaris disfavors them because you don't have time to cool off safely - should not be balanced around factions anymore than it is balanced around Solaris. Most top Solaris builds don't work well (if at all) in QP.

I suggest doing what most games do and when there's a specific standout problem vehicle/player weapon in FPS, nerf that.

Edited by SmokedJag, 12 June 2018 - 03:44 AM.