845 replies to this topic

[D V Devnull]

NUMBERZero1032, on 12 June 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

Explain the shot spread value for RACs in the game code, as seen in the community balance sheet.

SneekiBreeki, on 12 June 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

haHAA!

I'm gonna tell you right now that I don't even need to go over there. Regardless of that, I took a look at the first link I could find in regard to it.

Frankly, I can tell you looking at the spread number is going to throw your mind more than you realize, as it's not actually that bad. It's nowhere close to as spreadfire as you think it is. My personal experience with even up to 4 RAC2 and 2 RAC5 has shown that shots will hit basically on-target without fail, and whoever you have it pointed at is going to definitely feel the pain from being pounded by it.

~D. V. "The shots don't really spread far enough to cause an issue." Devnull

[BARRY SHlTPEAS]

At the risk of repetition plug the community balance changes into the PTS and see how it works. What is there to lose if this happens? A day of someone's time in the office to adjust the weapon systems?

[Kidd Sykes]

After reading through the available info and considering the options provided, both option 1's for bothe the cause fix and laser fix are practical and will achieve your desired effect, it'll take finesse and a gentle touch to get I just right but those would give the balance you're talking about in my humble experience

[Weagles]

Thanks PGI for continually looking for ways to improve the game and play and involving the community. Any change is good so the metas shift and the play does not get stale.

Clan Gauss needs only a slight change. Make them more fragile to reflect their lower weight cost with less critical hits needed for the weapon to be destroyed.

All weapons(clan and IS) if mounted in a exposed position should have an increase in the chances of the weapon being critted vs other components. The chance for a crit overall stays the same its just these exposed weapons are the most likely component to be critted. High lighting exposed slots in the mech lab would help all pilots in their builds recognize the danger. .

A well placed strike on a position should have a good chance of damaging one or more weapons. Keep the capability but make it worth while for the mech to move or potentially lose a favored weapon.

A slight adjustment to high alpha laser vomit is needed. When lasers (both clan and IS any type or size) are fired in an alpha strike combination of 60 pts or greater and the mech gets to the point of heat damage using current values, increase the weight of the heat damage chances for the component that is critted is a heat sink. This creates a potential for a cascading fail effect but only for using high damage laser alphas.

[D V Devnull]

You, sir, need a separate post...

CarloArmato, on 12 June 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

Dude, did you actually even TRIED to fit those builds?

I was curious to see how those build performed and only to fit the King Crab, and by simply maxing armor and mounting those weapons with no ammo and DHS the mech has only ~13 ton free and still an engine to fit... Oh, and I'm already using endo steel (+5 free tons). Smuprhy link here

So best case scenario you made that argument by bringing impossible, troll, unsustainable or unreliable DireStar-like builds... And MRMs and LBXs, which either does have duration and/or spreads damage over 100 meters.

Your argument is invalid.

In fact, the ONLY build I have ever seen in Pug or Solaris is the build number 2, but it's not even that great compared to dual Heavy Gauss and 6 Medium lasers annihilator because LBXs will spread the damage no matter how much you are skilled, while double heavy gauss can one-shot headshot you ~400 meters.

EDIT: also, alpha strike with RACs? What?

Actually, I did plug it all through my head, and my argument is NOT that far-fetched. Try an XL250, and lower the leg armor by 20 each, head by 2 points, and the arms to make up the rest. Sure, not much ammo, but that wouldn't be a big issue with a 100 Alpha. It probably isn't a build I would run myself, but that kind of design could quickly put some targets down in a hit-and-run manner. Strike, leave, come back after a cooldown, repeat... Not everything has to be 100% Brawl.

Oh, by the way, you could also do the design with 3 Standard Large Laser, instead of 3 Large Pulse. Still a Deadly 97 Alpha, to deck it off. Much bigger Engine, more HeatSinks, more room for Armor, possibly more Ammo too.

As for RACs, the Alpha Potential, aka "Firepower", is measured as a 5-second Duration. It's quite valid, though. Generally speaking, if you get a good shot off, you'll get a full 5 seconds to use on it. That, and some weapons have that long of a cooldown, which is why that time length is part of the calculations.

~D. V. "Geez... hasn't anyone heard of a Ninja Assault?" Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought. And a second one later on for a missed item or two. And a third one because the second one was rushed due to time constraints... Bleh.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 12 June 2018 - 05:31 AM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 12 June 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

You are listening to the wrong people about high alpha laser vomit. Is mechs are so quirked for brawling now that clanners have to bring high alpha and kite against is brawl. I spend nearly every moment I play in this game in faction play for both sides. I am telling you right now that without a large corresponding buff to clan mechs to compensate for breaking laser vomit you are effectively breaking clan vs is balance. Stop looking at quick play. Quick play is a bad arbiter to balance is vs clan

Are you a faction play player? lol if your not div A comp or t5 potato your opinion dosent matter sir.

PS. lol I forgot comp dont matter either now.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 12 June 2018 - 05:01 AM.

[Ensaine]

Why is this thread buried? Once I closed my browser, and came back, I was hard pressed to find this thread........if feedback is wanted, you guys should consider making this thread more accessible .....

[Cyriann]

After taking time to read through this all, and leaving some time to cook at my mind With a few games in between I realize that High damage Alphas are a problem that can be adressed in two ways.

-The devs line, trying to overall keep the actual TTK

A valid option which will surely please the community and give builders way to think outside the box and make some probably more interesting builds than pure Alpha strikers.
I might point out that damage distribution accross parts could as well be given a look over, as, after playing Battletech, and thus witnessing the way mechs should be murdering each other according to cannon of the universe, is extremely different compared to MWO's take. Idon't mean shots should be as random as they are in the tabletop, but after seeing a mech taking the time to aim with one shoulder weapon then twisting to try and get the second one (on the other shoulder) to hit the same location got me thinking that maybe we could get the skill celling up a bit more by actually having this lack of precision of Shoulder and Torso mounted weapons.

-Taking another route by rethinking.

I will sound like an old coot saying this but, I preferred the game when it started, back then TTK was far, far longer than it is now, not long enough to leave you a way to escape a certain death if you get juped by enough enemies but, longer than it is now, when basically you can die without having the time to fire even once.
So my question is : Why not increase TTK and establish back, or partially, the previous high importnace of teamwrok ?
As in my memory a Light would never had been able to destroy an Assault, alone and under three seconds just because the little guy packs 12 Machine guns and nothing else.
It is clear a form of power creep occured that allowed lower weight mechs to come to par in damage and tanking to Assaults, which are supposed to be the priority one targets closely followed by lights, and not be at the bottom of the concerns of a team due to their low mobility.
I though understand this statement I make is not easy to understand, but as I have now played many games based around team playing, having a totally evened out playing field among almost role based decisions in creating a loadout for a mech, is only dmaaging to the game's image to me, as it is what got all the friends I tried to bring in to leave the game in a matter of a few moths.

MWO presents its weight classes as roles, lights are scouts, mediums ambushers and flankers, Heavies front liners and Assaults tanking powerhouses, unfortunately in its actual state none of these designations are true, and I belive this is what should be looked up when rethinking the way all those weapons work.

[CarloArmato]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

You, sir, need a separate post...

Actually, I did plug it all through my head, and my argument is NOT that far-fetched. Try an XL250, and lower the leg armor by 20 each, head by 2 points, and the arms to make up the rest. Sure, not much ammo, but that wouldn't be a big issue with a 100 Alpha. It probably isn't a build I would run myself, but that kind of design could quickly put some targets down in a hit-and-run manner. Strike, leave, come back after a cooldown, repeat... Not everything has to be 100% Brawl.

~D. V. "Geez... hasn't anyone heard of a Ninja Assault?" Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought.]

So you are telling me that a King Crab that moves at 40 km/h, with an XL engine, shaved armor, 3 total tons of ammo for an MRM40 and dual Gauss (no free slots!), no additional DHS and 12% cooling efficiency is a threat because it can deal a bigger ghostheat-less alpha strike with low spread below 100 meters?

Again, did you actually tried those builds or see them in action? Because those build are trash and any point you made is invalid.

The point missing here is that some builds (not EVERY build) that can fit a particular set of weapons is OP compared to others.

• 2xHGR + 6x(ER)ML
  
• 2xcGR + 6xcERML
  
• 2xcGR + 2xcHLL + 2(+)xcERML
  
• 2xcHLL + 6xcERML

These are the strongest (and most annoying) builds, because they can ideally deal every single damage on a single component even at ~400 meters (yes, even heavy gausses, because at ~450 meters they deal the same damage as standard gausses).

The fact is that most of these builds needs at least 5+ seconds of cooldown before the next alpha strike...
If PGI buffed brawling or med-short range DPS weapons I would bet that most people would switch to other weapons.

The main issue is clanners ONLY has one reliable and strong meta, which is laser vomit / gauss vomit: ATMs can be countered by AMS / cover and are not meant for brawls; (U)AC10/5/2 can deal damage at range and are the only other "pinpoint" weapon; SRMs became too inaccurate even with artemis. Streaks are good only when facing smaller targets. ERPPCs are damn hot and quite slow, but at least they deal 10+5 damage.

The fact that some build can exploit those ghostheat-less weapon combination doesn't mean that the weapons used are OP all by themselves: 2xcLPL + 1xcGR ebon jaguar is not OP, but it was part of the old meta. If those nerfs goes live, that build will become even more useless, which means game variety will be hurted even further.

Mechs capable of fittings and to use reliably those specific weapons combinations should be nerfed / hit by the nerf hammer, NOT the entire weapon category.

OFF TOPIC: this is also the reason why the Piranha 1 is OP compared to other lights. There is no light capable of dealing 12+ DPS and move at ~140 km/h, or being capable of killing some heavies face to face. Just saying.

[Detergent II]

The Year: 2019
The Game: MechWarrior: Online - Kentares IV
The Playerbase: 24 salty diehard loredads
The Current Meta: 2 LGR
Notes: 2 light gauss rifles are the highest possible PPFLD alpha; AC20s and gauss rifles now ghost heat at 1. PGI has masterly managed, finally, to make LGR useful while avoiding a damage buff by simply nerfing every other weapon in the game. Clan mechs are subteir, now that they no longer have the damage output to make up for their abhorrent survivability and mobility. Still, many misled mechdads pilot these terrible 'Mechs, chainfiring a medley of different-ranged lasers at the superior InnerSphere 'Mechs. Some survivors of the horrid events which occured within MW:O - K4 say the lament of the damned echo through the night; Southern drawl, Midwestern and German accents, incomprehensible reeing, and the droning chants of "IS OP," "NEGATIVE QUIRKS UNFAIR," and "BUFF THE TIMBER WOLF" continue to prevent any chance of meaningful rest for these haunted souls.

[SilentScreamer]

In addition to review of Alpha capabilities, please consider the current system of balancing mech's performance based on tonnage may not be optimal.

Balance for Clan VS I.S. mechs has always been focused on ton for ton matching. This lead to the introduction of the Quirk System which has been both good (boost to underplayed mechs) and bad ( power creep). Please consider Clan Tech was designed as significantly superior by source material and it may not be possible to reach equality on a ton for ton basis.

I suggest that instead of pidgeon-holing mechs to perform according to their tonnage, transition MWO to a Point System used from the Match Maker and Faction dropdecks.
- First, each mech assigned a point value equal to it's tonage. This is the starting point.
- Second, if a mech grossly out-performs or under-performs assign a point handicap or adjustment based on that mech's performance for the purpose of Quickplay Matching Making. +5 /-10 etc.
- Third, regularly evaluate performance compared to others of it's tech-base only in regard to balancing Alpha/ Manuverabilty/ Survivability/ Performance. If minor adjustments are needed use Quirks. If major changes are needed adjust the point handicap.

Ex: If the optimal mixed pod Timberwolf, Gargoyle and Ebon Jaguar all perform similarly in-match they would have the same point value despite the tonnage differences. Omnis would have different Value adjustments based on stock pods or mixed. Similarly each varient would be rated on specific match performance. The Locust 3V would have a seperate adjustment from the 1M or 3S models etc. The performance-equivalent-match for a Nova might be a Thunderbolt 5SS or a Quickdraw, not a I.S. 50 tonner. Additionally, the point value could be different for each game type; Quickplay, Invasion, Scouting, and Solaris7 as some mechs are good performers in one or two, but bad in another.

By matching on performance in-match rather than the game-coded capabilities AND rebalancing the mechs quarterly via review of both point value and quirks I believe I.S. vs Clan balance would improve for both Quickplay and Faction Play.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 12 June 2018 - 06:50 AM.

[process]

SilentScreamer, on 12 June 2018 - 06:00 AM, said:

Balancefor Clan VS I.S. mechs has always been focused on ton for ton matching. This lead to the introduction of the quirk system which has been both good (boost to underplayed mechs) and bad ( power creep). Please consider that Clan tech was designed to be superior in the source material and it may not be possible to ever reach equality on a ton for ton basis.

A point or battle value system would be waaaaay too complex and subjective to establish and maintain, even for a highly competent developer. Every variant, every omnipod, every conditional combination of weapons and equipment; the list goes on. The simple truth is how something looks on paper doesn't always translate to its actual performance.

Edited by process, 12 June 2018 - 06:14 AM.

[Prototelis]

Team glass cannon doesn't need more reasons for long exposure time.

If you take the deathstrike and the standard meta of 2 gauss, 2 er large, 4 er medium for example, you take an incredible risk exposing yourself long enough to get the whole 80dmg.

Target the problem mechs, ghost heat knocks down under performers and it isn't a fun mechanic. Trigger discipline is irrelevant when you allow macros.

Out of all the options I like the recoil one the best, but it should only take place when firing two clan gauss simultaneously with a slight cool down or damage nerf, in my opinion.

On battle value;

It will be gamed. Peeps that enjoy seal clubbing will min-max the worst mechs and continue to stomp.

[SilentScreamer]

process, on 12 June 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

A point or battle value system would be waaaaay too complex and subjective to establish and maintain, even for a highly competent developer. Every variant, every omnipod, every conditional combination of weapons and equipment; the list goes on. The simple truth is how something looks on paper doesn't always translate to its actual performance.

Neither does PSR, but MWO uses it anyway.

Prototelis, on 12 June 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

On battle value;

It will be gamed. Peeps that enjoy seal clubbing will min-max the worst mechs and continue to stomp.

Agreed that it wil be gamed. However, this is not a " fix it all proposal". Paul and the rest of the responders here can talk about specific builds, good or bad, AlphaStrike capacity, etc... It is outside the scope of my proposal. What am saying is while BALANCE is being discussed why not talk about how the matchmaker populates mechs in-match? So why dismiss my proposal based on a current flaw, the matchmaker ignoring mech build, which is both part of the current system and the same in my proposal?

I believe it would be better to downscale Quirks and have the Matchmaker use a Centurion and a Kitfox as equivant opponents rather than ANY 50 ton mech or continuing to creep quirks until the Centurion performs equal to the Nova or any other Clan 50 tonner (until the next mech release). Likewise, matching a Locust with a Pirahna is absurd even if they are both 20 tons. Most Locust variants would be better matched by a Commando and the Pirahna to the Mist Lynx despite the 5 ton difference.

Ultimate simple solution nobody wants - make Quickplay match maker match Clan to Clan and IS to IS. You play against what you drop as. No mixing! Great right (sarcasm)?

Edited by SilentScreamer, 12 June 2018 - 10:56 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

If it were, I wouldn't have posted all that. I would have posted something instead that Matt Newman enjoys, a Meme Image. Maybe you could try plugging my thoughts through tables of facts, like those over at Smurfy's MWO MechLab, which gets its' info from MWO itself. I actually use them as my primary reference, and they're frankly pretty darn 'on the ball'. The only thing missing is price data on the Newest Mechs and Civil War Tech.

~D. V. "No jokes here, sorry." Devnull

If you're taking 100+ damage from rac2s you need to find a new game to play. That's why it's a joke. Your criticisms are nonsense.

And yes IS XL assaults are possible.

Luckily it's countered by being a moronic choice. Every XL Atlas or KC I kill in QP makes my heart sink at just how low the skill is in this game

Edited by thievingmagpi, 12 June 2018 - 06:40 AM.

[Moadebe]

Something that the people who are arguing "clan SHOULD do more damage due to both lore and survivability/mobility comparisons to IS" are forgetting that IS can only respectfully field a 60 point alpha. That is it. They (Chris and Paul) already stated this. Clans having the capability to alpha at 94 (albeit on one...maybe two mechs) is simply too much. I think what they want is somewhere akin to IS 60....clan 80 as their "ceiling." Which makes sense.

Honestly, clan gauss needs to go untouched. If you want to add anything to it add the screen shake. If you want to hit on that 94pt alpha...hit the culprits. More than likely heavy lasers. Gauss is seeming like its a culprit because it is simply a great weapon on the clan side of things. Seriously its great. I personally don't use it much, but that is because of the types of clan mechs I play.

I do know how however that gauss is mixed in with lasers to create that high alpha. It is over-performing because the lasers are over-performing. Hit the lasers. Knock HLL damage down by 2 (its heat by 1), ER meds.... knock a half to a point off of it (and give it one or a half less heat for compensation) and I promise you those high alphas will tone down quickly. The heavy meds you probably "could" do something similar but their heat is punishing enough.

Don't...and I repeat.....don't link anything more on ghost heat...especially the heavy large lasers. Heavy large lasers are already a "niche" weapon as it is. Putting ghost heat on firing 2 of them will kill the weapon system.

I could probably come up with some more after coffee infusion, but yeah....for starters.

[Moadebe]

Something else to consider. Nerfing heavy large laser optimum range. Where you can risk getting its full damage, but you have to be in a brawl range to get it. Thus risking taking more damage for its burn. This should taper off the high damage quicker at sub-optimal ranges....with a high risk/high reward gameplay.

The ermeds are tougher. Dont wanna mess with ranges on it. I will stick with my suggestion up there ^ since it can be boated more readily.

Also, Chris/Paul .... I am sorry but I MUST say this. The agility/mobility thing. I know its a bandwagon comment, but it does need to be upped. NOT across the board....but on the clan side. Was thinking about it. IS has the heavy handed tanky, but not as much damage approach. The clans could be the COMPLETE opposite lighter handed (armor wise) not as tanky, higher damage, higher mobility approach. Suiting to a vastly different play style with each one having its own rewards.

I REALIZE that the skill tree is there. I get it. We do NOT want to over do things on the baseline since someone can take the mobility skills and multiply its baseline stats too much. Makes sense. Honestly, anything over 70 tons on ONLY the clan side of things need to be touched. Also have it on a sliding scale. 70-75 tons = 5% increase to torso twist speed, 80-85= 7%, 90-95=10%, 100= 13% on twist speed.

It SHOULD buff them JUST enough to make it worth while again. DO NOT do the same to IS. Honestly, IS is fine on that. Allow IS to have its armor be its defense and clans have its ability to spread damage as its defense.

Also, for goodness sake.....it is like one of the only mechs in the game to have negative quirks....just remove ALL quirks (both negative and positive) from the timberwolf. There are omni mechs who really dont have any bonuses to it for having 8/8 set (direwolf I believe) .... just do that for the Timby. Its nerfs are outdated since the engine desync. It looks like a bandaid placed on another bandaid with the negative and positive quirks both addressing the same thing.

[Revenant Kitsune]

I've only been playing for about a year now, and have mechs on both sides of the fence. While I understand that the 94 point alphas going on from the clan side are undesirable.. they came about for a reason. Laser vomit was going on when I started and it has increased some. As more of an average player I may have a skewed look on it, but I believe in part it has increased simply to keep up with the new IS weapons. When I'm playing out on the field I get hit by high alpha laser vomit fairly often. I torso twist like crazy and try to get to cover. If I'm in a good position I may try to return some fire while they are staring at me with that long burn time/face time. After that I know they need to back off a little and get some cover to cool off.

Those laser boats aren't generally my main concern on the field though. Usually what I am looking out for and generally fear is the IS mechs that I know are running dual heavy gauss. Those are the most terrifying things on the field because it's pin point damage. When that hits I'm either missing most of my armor in a location or missing part of my mech, or in a few cases dead. I feel that is in part why even more have shifted towards the laser boats on the clan side. They have to have a way to deal with the new firepower the IS has. Clans didn't get a real good answer for the Heavy Gauss with the new weapons tech. Heavy lasers are their best answer. There is no twisting to spread the damage on those heavy gauss monsters. It hits and it's done. Yeah the laser boats hurt, but as others have stated you can twist to spread the damage some lowering their effectiveness in dropping your mech quickly. Clans try to keep the fight at a distance especially against mechs wielding the heavy gauss weapons so that they are out of the optimum range.

What I am saying with this is the heavier shift towards laser vomit and higher alphas is a response of the new weapons to try to compete by the main bulk of the players on the clan side. If you nerf the clan lasers (yet again) something needs to happen on the IS side as well. That and a nerf to damage should come with a reduction in heat values.

Don't forget that main bulk of the players are not "Competitive Players" we should get a say in things to. So for those that are saying "If you aren't competitive players you don't get a say" With out the bulk of the casual players, the game won't continue as there won't be enough people to keep it afloat.

[Edited a little because I'm still waking up and haven't had caffeine yet]

Edited by Revenant Kitsune, 12 June 2018 - 07:36 AM.

[deathlord]

Hello everyone and welcome to page 18 of this circus. Do yourselves a favor: just go back and reread Tarogato's post https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6113114 until it sticks.

[Dogstar]

Well 18 pages in and Clan Crocodile Tears has had a good old rampage through the thread, is anyone from PGI still listening? Because not everyone has had a chance to put forth their opinion.