845 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

You are going to buff IS and nerf Clans again and a month from now people will still be crying. If you want to make a meaningful change, then put QP back to 8v8 like Paul suggested.

Edited by Ed Steele, 12 June 2018 - 02:40 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Bennesto, on 12 June 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

The reason that light and medium Mechs continue to diminish is not the damage potential of bigger Mechs but the fact that they just lost so much agility due to unreasonable nerfs, engine desync and skilltree system that they no longer can effectively spread or dodge that damage values.

So instead moving forward with more obnoxious powernerfing, please for the love of god BUFF AGILITY!

You are right and wrong. What you mention is, indeed one of the reasons. However, the higher damange potential also is the reason why lights' and meds' numbers are declining. Simply because their TTK is very low because they need to get quite close.

I just have played a match were I ate only 1 alpha from an assault and it too out my ST. How fun is this? This is nearly a 1-shot because a light mech without a ST is basically dead

Nevertheless I agree with you also in buffing the agility of lights. Especially the 35t mechs which are terrible considering their drawbacks of less armour, structure, heat dissipation, alpha capability, dps etc.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 12 June 2018 - 09:36 AM.

[Paywar]

STOP NERFING please

Just go backward buff everything you nerfed

[Rydiak Randborir]

Paywar, on 12 June 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

STOP NERFING please

Just go backward buff everything you nerfed

Upward balancing is a terrible idea because it isn't sustainable over time.

Edited by Rydiak, 12 June 2018 - 09:59 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Admittedly part of the problem is that not all Clan mechs can take advantage of super high alphas. Some lack the slots to stack heatsinks. Others the tonnage. Would changing weapon damage and buffing other stats hurt those mechs? Or would tighter ghost heat with same weapon values?

On the one hand. Tighter ghost heat leaves them about the same. They couldn't get up to that level anyway. So they wouldn't be as effected, except in the case of heavy lasers possibly.

But on the other, cooler weapons with less duration might play better for the less optimal clan mechs. Since they'd need less dubs, thereby less weight and slots. But it would be a lower alpha all the same compared to larger mechs.

Edited by MechaBattler, 12 June 2018 - 10:17 AM.

[Xx_M01S7R47JU1C35_xX]

Tarogato, on 12 June 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

sorry for tangent:


Several people have said something along these lines. Mind you, 1500 comments is does not mean 1500 individual people, nor does it even mean that every person who commented's opinion is reflected (that is, quite plainly... impossible to achieve.)

On the other hand there were probably a few thousand lurkers who saw their opinion already represented by others in the comments and just upvoted what they felt was close. I didn't comment on the doc, neither did my clan, but the 20 or so of us were all well aware of the doc and found a lot of it to be inline with our own thoughts. I even remember multiple discord conversations on three different servers about it.

I would fully expect a lot more people support and are aware of the community effort than it appears at first. To say a thousand people support it is most likely an understatement.

@PGI Why don't we find out and you poll the community on wether or not you try the community initiative on the public test server? That's all most of us want at this point. A chance to prove the rebalance and an opportunity to see what really happens. It's win-win for you. Either the balance initiative works, it's saves you some work, and the community feels some responsibility for making the game better, or it fails on the ptr by not solving the problems it set out to adress, the community backs down, and you earn more freedom and respect to make changes your way. Just put it on the PTR, you have nothing to lose.

Edited by ExRedux, 12 June 2018 - 10:23 AM.

[SHIN BRODAMA]

Tarogato, on 12 June 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

sorry for tangent:


Several people have said something along these lines. Mind you, 1500 comments is does not mean 1500 individual people, nor does it even mean that every person who commented's opinion is reflected (that is, quite plainly... impossible to achieve.)

The point of those 1,500 comments being mentioned is that we've already done this. The community as a whole has provided feedback, hence why you kept gauss/PPC out of the balance doc despite comp player desires.

Now PGI is asking us to start over, when the work has already been done. What a waste.

[Vxheous]

Bush Hopper, on 12 June 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

You are right and wrong. What you mention is, indeed one of the reasons. However, the higher damange potential also is the reason why lights' and meds' numbers are declining. Simply because their TTK is very low because they need to get quite close.

I just have played a match were I ate only 1 alpha from an assault and it too out my ST. How fun is this? This is nearly a 1-shot because a light mech without a ST is basically dead

Nevertheless I agree with you also in buffing the agility of lights. Especially the 35t mechs which are terrible considering their drawbacks of less armour, structure, heat dissipation, alpha capability, dps etc.

I don't know what mech you're using, but you either didn't front load your armor, and/or not using the defensive tree. My stock HBK-4G (MWOWC 2018 legal) with stock armor values, no front loading + defensive tree nodes lets me eat a 72 alpha to the left torso (that's the unquirked torso, not the giant hunch right torso that has huge armor quirks)

Edited by Vxheous, 12 June 2018 - 10:24 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Vxheous, on 12 June 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't know what mech you're using, but you either didn't front load your armor, and/or not using the defensive tree. My stock HBK-4G (MWOWC 2018 legal) with stock armor values, no front loading + defensive tree nodes lets me eat a 72 alpha to the left torso (that's the unquirked torso, not the giant hunch right torso that has huge armor quirks)

I was referring to light mechs

[Vxheous]

Bush Hopper, on 12 June 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

I was referring to light mechs

Light mechs have always been capable of being 1 shot in the torso.....with or without a 72 alpha. Dual Gauss hits used to XL check lights all the time. Seems more like a PEBKAC issue to me, first rule of lights is never stand still. If someone actually held a full laser burn on your torso while you're moving at full speed in a light, that's an amazing shot, and there's very few people in this game that could do that.

Edited by Vxheous, 12 June 2018 - 10:33 AM.

[Tesunie]

Vxheous, on 12 June 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

I don't know what mech you're using, but you either didn't front load your armor, and/or not using the defensive tree. My stock HBK-4G (MWOWC 2018 legal) with stock armor values, no front loading + defensive tree nodes lets me eat a 72 alpha to the left torso (that's the unquirked torso, not the giant hunch right torso that has huge armor quirks)

I might mention... I've died (twice in a row) from a single alpha to my Riflemen's CT, which has far more health than your Hunchback's left torso. I had no skills unlocked (brand new mech, thanks mech sales), and I also should not NEED skills just to be able to play the mech without dieing in a single hit/alpha.

For the record, I am not exaggerating the account. Faced off with an Annihilator, I know I'm going to lose. I shot once, twist (doesn't seem to count with HSR), and got nailed in the CT with one alpha and promptly died. I only have 6 points of rear armor, rest is all front loaded.

[Vxheous]

Tesunie, on 12 June 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

I might mention... I've died (twice in a row) from a single alpha to my Riflemen's CT, which has far more health than your Hunchback's left torso. I had no skills unlocked (brand new mech, thanks mech sales), and I also should not NEED skills just to be able to play the mech without dieing in a single hit/alpha.

For the record, I am not exaggerating the account. Faced off with an Annihilator, I know I'm going to lose. I shot once, twist (doesn't seem to count with HSR), and got nailed in the CT with one alpha and promptly died. I only have 6 points of rear armor, rest is all front loaded.

How much total HP does a Rifleman CT have? My Anni 1x has a 89 alpha, granted that's inside 250m. Dual heavy Gauss, 1xLarge laser, 6xmedium lasers.

Edited by Vxheous, 12 June 2018 - 10:52 AM.

[Tesunie]

Vxheous, on 12 June 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

How much total HP does a Rifleman CT have? My Anni 1x has a 89 alpha, granted that's inside 250m. Dual heavy Gauss, 1xLarge laser, 6xmedium lasers.

74 armor on the front, 40 internal structure. Total health 114.

As I said, single alpha and i died. Can't say I was expecting to survive and win, but I would have thought I should have survived a little longer than that... Ya know?

I'm going to guess I was hit with bad luck, some (most? All?) of the hits that breached the armor got crits, dealt more damage to the internal structure, and boosted it to killing values. (Which, I also feel crit levels have been feeling a little too high as of recently. But that could be just me.) I still feel it really shouldn't happen...

And yes, I was within 250m range... Rounded a corner, saw the assault, died at his feet.

I should mention I did take a single glancing hit before hand that turned my CT armor yellow (not even yellow orange), but I don't think it should have been significant enough to result in a kill. Maybe 2-5 less points of CT armor max from my estimation. (Really wished I recorded my matches sometimes.)

[Pelmeshek]

Tesunie, on 12 June 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

I might mention... I've died (twice in a row) from a single alpha to my Riflemen's CT, which has far more health than your Hunchback's left torso. I had no skills unlocked (brand new mech, thanks mech sales), and I also should not NEED skills just to be able to play the mech without dieing in a single hit/alpha.

For the record, I am not exaggerating the account. Faced off with an Annihilator, I know I'm going to lose. I shot once, twist (doesn't seem to count with HSR), and got nailed in the CT with one alpha and promptly died. I only have 6 points of rear armor, rest is all front loaded.

Well, i hope u write skill u mean skill tree, not ur own skill. Because facetank anni on rifleman its really idiotic idea.

[Tesunie]

Pelmeshek, on 12 June 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

Well, i hope u write skill u mean skill tree, not ur own skill. Because facetank anni on rifleman its really idiotic idea.

Skill tree, paid for with experience, which should have been a strong insinuation with the fact it was a brand new mech...

Not personal skill, as I shot and twisted, which didn't (and continues to not seem to) do any help (as I do believe HSR takes back my twisting action from lag to when the opponent shoots, so I have to predicatively twist... so I take a lot of CT damage even when I am twisting, even in mechs like the Crab). It was not my intention to face tank an Annihilator... It's called "not knowing they are there" or also "poking out to deal damage and finding out they aren't as distracted as I believed/not where I thought they were"...

Still, doesn't change the fact a single shot took out an "unskilled" Riflemen (and to be clear, unskilled means no skills unlocked on the skill tree as the mech has no experience to unlock said skills on it's skill tree, meaning that the mech has no unlocked skills making it deemed as unskilled... I have no other way of explaining this any farther).

[Admiral_Korean_Jesus]

Tesunie, on 12 June 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Skill tree, paid for with experience, which should have been a strong insinuation with the fact it was a brand new mech...

Not personal skill, as I shot and twisted, which didn't (and continues to not seem to) do any help (as I do believe HSR takes back my twisting action from lag to when the opponent shoots, so I have to predicatively twist... so I take a lot of CT damage even when I am twisting, even in mechs like the Crab). It was not my intention to face tank an Annihilator... It's called "not knowing they are there" or also "poking out to deal damage and finding out they aren't as distracted as I believed/not where I thought they were"...

Still, doesn't change the fact a single shot took out an "unskilled" Riflemen (and to be clear, unskilled means no skills unlocked on the skill tree as the mech has no experience to unlock said skills on it's skill tree, meaning that the mech has no unlocked skills making it deemed as unskilled... I have no other way of explaining this any farther).

You came around a corner, full expose, did not even try to cut the pie, and are mad because you died... if you twisted, right you might have lost a side torso. Obviously you didn’t.

With that, I digress. In addition to previous more detailed post here, here are some other things to consider. First, @PGI if your head balance guy’s pilot stats are that bad, you should reconsider who does your balancing. Other games have dedicated personal who play the game for hours a day, and with that, constantly gather feedback from their top players. You will never be able to balance a skill disparity. Also, you should seek opinions from other forms of social media. Your forums have always been a heavily censored potato tornado. While tier isn’t a big measure, people without sufficient game experience should not even be part of the conversation. That’s like playing a racing game, and just hearing a brand new player complain every one is faster then them.

Edited by Mikato Soul, 12 June 2018 - 11:19 AM.

[Pelmeshek]

Tesunie, on 12 June 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Skill tree, paid for with experience, which should have been a strong insinuation with the fact it was a brand new mech...

Not personal skill, as I shot and twisted, which didn't (and continues to not seem to) do any help (as I do believe HSR takes back my twisting action from lag to when the opponent shoots, so I have to predicatively twist... so I take a lot of CT damage even when I am twisting, even in mechs like the Crab). It was not my intention to face tank an Annihilator... It's called "not knowing they are there" or also "poking out to deal damage and finding out they aren't as distracted as I believed/not where I thought they were"...

Still, doesn't change the fact a single shot took out an "unskilled" Riflemen (and to be clear, unskilled means no skills unlocked on the skill tree as the mech has no experience to unlock said skills on it's skill tree, meaning that the mech has no unlocked skills making it deemed as unskilled... I have no other way of explaining this any farther).

No, its because u dont know hitboxes and looks like really bad in torso twisting. Rifleman vs crab. Plus u write about "not knowing they are there", so why u think only one anni shot on u? Mb try to not cry on forum about alpha and gid gud?

[Charles Sennet]

Gartenlaube, on 11 June 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Beating a dead horse... Do you even play the game, PGI? I mean, like really in a unit with strong people in FP against another premade good unit?

IS has armor quirks, the weapons shoot faster (damage over time, much more important than high alpha ), and run sooo cool (yeah we played both sides in FP, but if you want fast drops, choose clan as SO MANY PLAY IS cause it is soo more convenient)

High alpha on clan side is NOT a problem, as is is achieved by an insane burn duration! (and HEAT HEAT HEAT) The cooldown takes ages, too. So any IS mech that is not standing still (but many noobs do), does get the damage spread ALL over his mech.

And, btw, talking about HIGH ALPHA: So IS Heavy Dual Gauss is NOT a problem? There is no chance to torso twist or avoid it for clans, IS pushes and shoots ya, one shot- kill... No penalties whatever. It was fun doing that on IS side... (total damage output in the end seems lower, as you dont strip the enemy mech apart but just instant kill)

IS has nice autocannons, that dont shoot tons of bullets and each bullet doing fractions of damage, no, if it hits, it does the full ****. Clan has to deal with those "salvo" style ********, while having lower armor, too.

Range? Did ya see a battlemaster with like 4-6 er large lasers and TC? Go to a private game and test it with a friend on alpine, you will be surprised against a clan er large laser mech. And no claner can carry 6erlarge and fire em, like IS does.

Nah, you nerfed clans hard enough and enough is enough. Stop beating a dead horse. (Not even getting into ridiculous armor quirks).

Teach the people how to play, cause if I see an IS mech standing still, shooting his M lasers at 800 meters at me, yes I ALPHA HIM with zoom in and do a lot of damage. But that is the players fault! If he does not understand the game mechanics and weapons!

You seem to listen to those BEEEP players, so honestly, you never seem to play your own game enough to understand that there is NOTHING LEFT TO BALANCE! You added so many screws and adjustment possibilities and playing with em like a little kid in a toy story without any common sense that it is SCREWED now and none of your suggestions show an understanding of the current state the game is in!

FP examples:
-12 urbies / Assassins just rushing a 12 man premade of assaults on clan side. Guess the outcome? (Talking about premade against premade)
- 12 Annihis and Cyclops just rushing
- 12 battlemasters+ stalkers with erlarge (alpine)
...
Nothing on clan side can provide sth against this and it has been shown and proven so many times. Clan has no amazeballs lights or assaults left. You nerved the heavies like the timber to death... the Kodiak is useless and soft, like all clan assaults.

Now you want to nerf stuff LIKE A CLAN GAUSS? What is wrong with you, PGI? No more money from me until you REALLY fix and balance stuff and everyone unhappy with the game mechanics should follow that example!

Almost every Clan pilot I drop with regularly (loyalist or not) feels the same way even though they do not post on the forums. The frustration has also led many to leave the mode. Speaking for me personally, once there is no reason to play FP, there is no reason to play the game.

Playing FP is the best way to experience how the two factions are balanced because there is no mixed tech. And yet, for reasons passing understanding, I cannot recall the last time I saw anyone from PGI playing FP.

I've played and drop called more than 10,000 matches in FP and I can tell you with 100% conviction that the largest balance issue we currently have the game is the degree to which IS dominates over Clans in short range confrontations which is 80% of the mode. Clans have simply no direct answer to a lot of things IS can field beginning with Anni walls but extending down to other outliers like the Assassin and Bushwacker which are still comically hard to kill. Put 6-12 of these mechs on the field at once and it often takes Clans multiple waves to clear them out. Clans starting a match down 24-12 is common with pre-made vs pre-made and I'm talking about about equal skill here. Its crazy and not sustainable for the game. Its good to finally see some IS players voicing their agreement on the forums.

If FP dies for balance (among other reasons like long-term neglect) then a lot of players die with it including many whales I know.

Balance being bad is more than about Clan high alpha capability. Please understand this.

[Agent of Change]

Honestly a general cap on the ability to fire more than 30 points without a SEVERE penalty (or just prevent it entirely) is a great idea.

Since the beginning teh biggest issue MWO had is that it's meta focused on putting as much damage on a mech as possibly and firing it all at once. Which has led to ridiculously short TTK's, and endless rounds of balancing around an issue that shoudl have been dealt with from the start.

An Alpha strike from an assault should be a relatively uncommon act, something that is an act of desperation or calculated risk. The fact that just about every build commonly used is designed to fire functionally off a single mouse click doesn't really feel BT.

Ghost heat was never the answer really, most agree on that. Energy Draw mechanics have real draw backs too. But if a way to basically prevent more than 30 damage a trigger pull then that could increase TTK, and place IS and Clan mechs on more even footing (armor vs. maneuver). Truly making the game more about DPS is probably the way to be thinking about it.

Edited by Agent of Change, 12 June 2018 - 11:16 AM.

[Sable]

TL:DR for responding to balance choices near the bottom. Explanation

I know Paul is worried about the maximum potential alpha strike capability and i know there's cheesers out there that will try it. But that build just isn't practical in comparison to tanky mctankertank Inner Sphere mechs.

In case you're wondering where the 94 point alpha comes from, It's a Direwolf with 2 Gauss rifles (30 damage), 2 ER Large lasers (22 damage), and 6 ER Medium Lasers (42 Damage). Which is insanely hot and will put you at 70-80% heat immediately. You could even swich out some omnipods for some additional lasers in the torso to boost it even higher but you'll never have enough heatsinks to sustain that kind of firepower for long. Is this an actual playable mech? The short answer is No, it's like the Direstar - 10 PPC DIrewolf you have 100 damage pinpoint with 150 damage total, barely any armor and you got one shot before you're basically out of the game from overheat damage. These builds are NOT practical. I think one of my old Direwolf builds was 2 Gauss, 2 ER large, and 6 ER small for close up fights but i would rarely alphastrike and it ran hot with the ER smalls. I can't imagine giving up tonnage from heatsinks in order to have those ER smalls as ER Mediums. The build just wouldn't survive first contact with the enemy.

Sustained DPS is the name of the game. Which is by far where the IS mechs do well at. They can alpha and alpha and alpha and nobody seems to care about that.

I play a lot of clan mechs, not because of an inherent power level, i just like the way they look better. Clan mechs are usually sleeker and are far more often symmetrical when it comes to weapon loadouts, which is what I prefer. But with quirks for not only weapons but armor as well the IS mechs have become monsters of their own. And i find it annoying that with each "balance pass" me and my clan mechs become weaker and my opponents become that much tougher to fight. I barely play my Ebon Jaguars anymore because they just can't compete very well, even against mechs of the same tonnage. My lasers are hotter, my cooling bonuses from skilltree are lower, my gauss rifles crit out faster than ever. I also can't get the same amount of cooldown from the skilltree as IS mechs. I feel like my clan mechs have been whittled away to a shadow of their former selves. I don't use ER mediums the most because of their range, i use them because they cost less tonnage than pulse lasers. Most engagements end up under 300meters anyway so the person that has less heat and faster cooldowns and tankier armor is going to come out on top. And in those cases that means the IS mechs will win against a clan mech. The clans used to have maneuverability but that got taken away too with the engine desync.



TL:DR
So to recap, clan mechs are slower, hotter, more fragile and can fire less often but they still need more nerfing. So here's my response if i absolutely must choose one of the options presented.

Clan Gauss Riffles:
Again if i "have" to choose one of them i'd choose the reticle shake. Which would do nothing because then you would just shoot lasers first (if you weren't already) and release gauss charge second. I already do this and use the lasers as a guide for the Gauss.

Clan Lasers:
If i absolutely had to choose one i'd rather go with lower damage. But only if that that meant you'd have less heat also. If firing 6 ER medium lasers now bring me up to 35-40% heat for for 42 damage I don't want to see that same levels of heat for 36 damage.

Final thoughts:
In both cases one of the options had to do with ghost heat levels. I'm still very much an advocate that ghost heat was and is a bad idea and should be removed. So please keep anything to do with ghost heat off the table. If you aren't going to take it away at least don't make it any worse.