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Addressing the current High Alpha Damage Meta


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#441 Nicodemus Rosse

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:23 PM

I've been mostly off playing BattleTech for the last several weeks and it's reminded me of why I love the franchise and why, for all that I like this game, it feels really "off" for what it's theoretically supposed to be. I mention this because it's been interesting seeing the number of replies that were more out-of-the-box—as opposed to ideas about damage per tick, heat, burn time, and ghost heat.

If we're constrained to just the handful of variables on the table now, I'm strongly on board with at least trying a week or two of PTS (or even public server) where all the stats are set based on the community weapons rebalance project. I don't like everything they suggest, but at least it all makes some kind of coherent sense and steps away from balance as an exercise in applying band-aids to your band-aids that were applied over past band-aids. It's very "the old lady swallowed a cat to catch the mouse she swallowed to catch the spider she swallowed to catch the fly" thing.

It's exhausting.

A quick fix for excessive Clan laser alphas might be to reduce the effectiveness of Clan coolshots instead of debuffing the weapons globally or removing coolshots entirely.

If we could get whatever we wanted...
For matchmaking and factions:
  • Get rid of un-themed 12 v 12 mixed tech base Quick Play by tweaking the MM to drop you into 4 v 4 (IS), 5 v 5 (Clan), 5 v 8 (Clan vs. IS), 8 v 8 (IS), 10 v 10 (Clan), 10 v 12 (Clan vs. IS), or 12 v 12 (IS) games based on current player queue population. Try to make the biggest IS vs. Clan match first, then the biggest IS and biggest Clan matches you can separately, then move on to smaller match sizes in a similar order. If the population is large enough, try to group by faction.
  • Mercenaries are an IS only faction.
  • Set the game to pick mission types based on the size of the match, so Incursion is reserved for 10x10 and up, Escort is 10x10 and below, etc. Once the MM assembles a match, it bans mission modes that are outside the match size.
  • Let players set several camo options for each 'Mech, based on maps, a bit like the new feature to let you save Skill Tree configurations and re-use them. No decals, just "for drops on Polar, use W pattern with colors X, Y, Z."
  • Find a way to wrap FP and QP together; the modified MM above would let you have matches that actually align with faction-vs-faction combat, and adding Scouting as a mission mode for small groups is fairly workable. The main challenge here would be how to handle drop decks, and how to manage the faction scoring overall. Suddenly all the players are either doing Solaris or participating in a conflict that makes more sense than the current mixed QP format.
  • Add a "Grand Melee" game mode for Clan 5v5 drops that's effectively a Battle Royale. Because why not?
  • Modify match rewards system to incentivize Clanners to try for Solo Kills and KMDD (because Zellbrigen) and IS for good cooperation. When Clan players end up with lower match rewards for concentrated fire, it might counteract their range/damage advantage a bit. Incentives can work, given good overall balance.
For weapons and engines:
  • Fix isXL engines by upping the number of Engine crits that kills you from 3 to 4. You can lose one side, but if the other side is open you might get critted out before the other side is actually destroyed. Still incentivizes LFEs, both for space and durability, but maybe not as much as now. Could drop their prices a bit to compensate? Another balance option would be to introduce a heat management spike with the 3rd crit, rather than it killing you, so you run hotter than with just 2 engine crits but don't actually die.
  • A partial fix for convergence: Disable arm lock entirely. Aiming all your arm and torso weapons at one spot with precise convergence is not helping. Instead, let players toggle which reticle (arm or torso) follows the mouse and which one lags the mouse.
  • Another fix for convergence: A modified energy draw system, where instead of ghost heat for firing lots of linked weapons, each weapon draws X power, and once your 'Mech has drawn all of the available power any remaining weapon lags a fraction of a second behind the previous one before it fires. (A group of 6 cERML might fire three together, and the other three fire one at a time partway through the burn duration of the first three.) Bigger energy weapons draw more power per weapon shot, so you could manage 2 PPCs, but the third lags. The point of this is not to limit alphas (heat does that) but to reduce the number of weapons you can fire at once and get precise convergence. Gauss Rifles that are charging use 100% of your power, so literally nothing else can fire while they're charging—they basically lock your power supply while they charge, and you get it all back when they finish (this is supported in lore, where a warrior firing a single Gauss Rifle found it pulled so much power that his Dire Wolf noticeably slowed down, the cockpit lights dimmed, and subsequent laser shots lagged just an instant before actually firing). Autocannons, MGs, and missile weapons don't draw energy at all.
  • Prevent PPFLD autocannon mayhem by giving the AC/10 and AC/20 weapons recoil just enough to keep them from hitting the same spot even when fired simultaneously, and remove the recoil when chain-firing at the normal chain fire interval. Switching IS ACs to multiple shells like Clan ACs use for the 5, 10, and 20 guns would also help a bit.
  • LRMs fired at a target you have a lock on fly straight. LRMs fired at a target an ally has locked will home in as long as the ally holds the lock, but you don't know the ally has a lock until the ally used the command wheel to invoke "target spotted." Your own lock breaks as soon as the target leaves line of sight, no delay. To compensate, boost LRM flight speed considerably when they're flying straight at a target you have locked. When you lock a target an ally has spotted for you and you don't have LOS, your lock is actually an "indirect firing solution" and not a normal weapon lock. LRMs treat it as a lock, all other weapons treat it like you have no lock on anyone. This means you can direct-fire LRMs effectively, or you can provide indirect fire if you have a cooperative spotter, but none of the current nonsense where you're chasing someone else's locks whether they want you to or not while you hide from the fight.
  • Multiple AMS don't cleanly stack; the first one is 100% effective, the second is only 80% effective, the third is only 60% effective, the fourth only 40% effective. Multiple AMS aren't necessarily going to play nice, and they'll probably waste shots trying to take out the same missile with shots from 2+ AMS systems, so diminishing returns make sense and reduce the magic of triple AMS missile shields.
  • Same for massed machine guns, diminishing returns will help.
For role warfare, because why not?
  • Quirk 'Mechs based on their roles, and modify their match rewards for those roles! By linking these to chassis instead of build, you provide an incentive for builds that suit the "personality" of the chassis, but still allow players to play the builds they want and do well enough.
  • Scout 'Mechs should have longer sensor range by default, before skill tree, or should get those skill nodes for free. They get better match rewards for locking new targets, holding locks for allies, flanking, and so on.
  • Skirmishers should get some agility bonuses and better rewards for flanking, kill assists.
  • Fire support should get better rewards for kill assists but not for KMDD or solo kills, and buffs to long- and longer mid-range weapons like light ACs, large lasers, Gauss Rifles, and LRMs.
  • Brawlers should get substantial agility and durability buffs, and bonus rewards for KMDD to de-incentivize them from hanging back and kill-stealing, and reward guts.
  • ...and so on.
None of that's gonna happen, but a nerd can dream.

Edited by Nicodemus Rosse, 12 June 2018 - 09:42 PM.


#442 James Wirth

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:06 PM

Aff, let us make Clan mechs and weapons even less fun to play than they already are by nerfing them yet again and even harder.

So what is the point any more?

#443 Too Much Love

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:28 PM

Clans appeared in MWO in 2014.

4 years passed and PGI is still trying to nerf it.

Meh.

#444 zudukai

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:33 PM



#445 Dungeon 206

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:51 PM

View PostTesunie, on 12 June 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

For the record, I am not exaggerating the account. Faced off with an Annihilator, I know I'm going to lose. I shot once, twist (doesn't seem to count with HSR), and got nailed in the CT with one alpha and promptly died. I only have 6 points of rear armor, rest is all front loaded.



it was me. im sorry for DHGRing your CT.
and im sorry Pelmeshek and Vxheous for being the source of the argument.
Posted Image

Edited by Dungeon 206, 12 June 2018 - 10:58 PM.


#446 H I A S

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:48 PM

View PostColonel ONeill, on 11 June 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

[Redacted]

View PostALKALIN3, on 11 June 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

[Redacted]

View Postkjubert, on 11 June 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

[Redacted]

View PostFileTitan, on 11 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

[Redacted]

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 11 June 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

Because their opinion gets [REDACTED]


Ill have to agree with all of that.

/e: Can we have a guy who knows what is fun for balance?

Edited by H I A S, 13 June 2018 - 12:10 AM.


#447 lazorbeamz

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:18 AM

View Posteyeballs, on 12 June 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Firstly, until pin point accuracy is addressed, this is all pointless. This is the root of the issue. No pin point accuracy: Who cares how big your alpha is. Pin point accuracy: Lights and Mediums are mostly screwed once alpha goes above 50, heavies above 70 and assaults above 90. As PGI is never going to address that, and the community is going to continue to react violently to any suggestion that it might be an issue, the rest of this discussion is pointless theory crafting that serves no purpose.

Secondly, until the system for determining player skill is addressed, any changes made are ultimately futile. You can have the best balanced game in the industry, but if your match-maker is being fed garbage data about your players' skill the game is still going to be a lop-sided chunderthrust that no one finds satisfying. The upward bias of the PSR system results in all players with a win/loss ratio of 1 or greater getting to Tier 1 (eventually). That makes it useless as a metric to base match-making on, resulting in supposedly 'high Tier' games that are actually filled with players that have been carried by friends or over-performing team-mates/meta-builds matched against the best of the best, a game play situation that neither side finds acceptable or fun.

Lastly, as long as there is no interest by the devs and outright hostility from the community in using heat as anything other than a binary 'can I alpha or not/oops I'm dead' system, an entire axis of balance levers is missing from the equation. That such a system of ramping penalties existed in all previous versions of MechWarrior seems not to matter to those who roundly poo-poo any attempt at discussion on the topic, it is as verboten as cone of fire and lobby-based matches. Why? I can only conclude that those who dismiss it out of hand, as has happened numerous times in this very thread, don't want anything to interfere with their big and repeated alphas, and therefore engaging them in any kind of discussion is simply a waste of time.

TL;DR : Fix pin-point, fix PSR, make heat matter, then we can talk about weapon balance.

Hmmm... remove coolshots and weapon convergence. Sounds good for me. You have a bunch of lasers which shoot parallel to each other and spread all over. And you cant reset your heat with a paid consumable either.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 13 June 2018 - 01:18 AM.


#448 Leon Ward

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:57 AM

As I wrote in last month, the Nerf trozdem comes, oh PGI is so transparent.



Almost everyone wants the TTK to be longer and the Mega Highalpha builds to be screwed down.

The ominous 94 DMG Alpha which can be driven by the Dire and Mad Cat is so popular thanks to the heat that drives everyone. The said builds are also the reason why in CW the clans win every game in half asleep.



Yeah well, the Anni with DHG and 6 MPL and an alpha of 86 DMG can barely keep up even though he can outball the Alpha 2x. (6 seconds for a hellbringer ..... that's what I call super TTK)



Balancing is good but unfortunately this is going in the wrong direction. Clanners are except for a few exceptions glass cannons and thanks to the lack of defensive queries, they would be patched at future allowable 30 damage per Laseralpha without reasonable compensation quasi from the game.



What should make the 'Mechs like the supernova or the nova, to name only 2? 3 weapon groups and even longer burning time so they have blown so thanks to the non-existent Quirks of Battlemaster 1G in the Nirvana in Laserduell?



I've been a clan fanboy since I started with BT as a kid. I have 73 'Mechs, 7 IS and the rest are Clanmechs. What should you do with it!?! I will no longer spend any money on Clanmechs! And if the clans still continue to be just nerf without compensation even though now the IS has the edge I'll probably get out of the game ... A pity!


PS: Sry for Googletranslater my English is not good enough and the German Forum you don´t read i think

#449 cougurt

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:59 AM

the biggest culprit when it comes to weapon imbalance is the clan ER medium laser. nerf its damage by .5-1 and give it compensatory buffs elsewhere. this way it remains a useful weapon across all weight classes and builds while helping to tone down excessively high alphas. you can take a similar approach to the large laser class as well if necessary. i would also recommend a comprehensive balance pass on mech agility, including a moderate agility buff across the board. the sluggishness of most mechs plays a big part in many of the game's current balance issues, the relative strength of clan lasers being one of them.

i don't understand the aversion to buffing underused weapons. it can hardly be considered power creep when most of the weapons in question have gone through multiple nerfs to begin with, or have been useless since their introduction. you're making a huge amount of needless work for yourselves if you're using the worst weapons in the game as your balance baseline.

#450 Leon Ward

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:01 AM

Please make all weapon systems no matter what the lore says. Doubles the armor and the TTK is better. Removes all quirks. But trying convulsively over Ghostheat and Quirks to balance leads to nothing.

Edited by Lance-a-Lot, 13 June 2018 - 03:02 AM.


#451 D34DMetal

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:29 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 12 June 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:


It's detrimental because whatever point you set the first heat penalty at governs how big the alphas can be, meaning you don't need to invest in more guns once you hit that point, you just invest in more heatsinks. Only one side has hyper tonnage efficient weapons that can fit more than enough heatsinks to completely offset the higher base heat on them. That's what happened during the Energy Draw PTS; Clan DHS boating was the new meta. Even with ballistics, to get a given amount of firepower the IS had to sacrifice more DHS.

So you've got 'Mechs that have to run hotter to get similar firepower having a harder time riding the line.

TL;DR: you will have to adjust more than just the heat system if you want heat penalties.



There's no point in discussing the specifics because they really don't matter. If heat penalties trigger at 30%, then we treat 30% like we treat 100% now. You can easily extrapolate the rest from that.

What's wrong with governing how big alphas are; isn't the point of these balance changes to start limiting damage potential? The energy draw system is not analogous to this proposed heat-scale so you can't make such comparisons (so there goes your argument right out the window).

Again: limiting the potential alpha strike damage before heat-scale penalties is a good thing. How is a player optimizing their build for a certain amount of upfront damage before it hits the heat-scale effects a bad thing? You'd have a mech that's good for DPS, but lacking in the PPFLD department; isn't this what balance is trying to accomplish?

The matter of fact is you don't know how a heat-scale system would work in-game (never mind how players would adapt their play to such a system) without actually testing it in the game.

#452 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:36 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 12 June 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:


It's detrimental because whatever point you set the first heat penalty at governs how big the alphas can be, meaning you don't need to invest in more guns once you hit that point, you just invest in more heatsinks. Only one side has hyper tonnage efficient weapons that can fit more than enough heatsinks to completely offset the higher base heat on them. That's what happened during the Energy Draw PTS; Clan DHS boating was the new meta. Even with ballistics, to get a given amount of firepower the IS had to sacrifice more DHS.

So you've got 'Mechs that have to run hotter to get similar firepower having a harder time riding the line.

TL;DR: you will have to adjust more than just the heat system if you want heat penalties.


There's no point in discussing the specifics because they really don't matter. If heat penalties trigger at 30%, then we treat 30% like we treat 100% now. You can easily extrapolate the rest from that.


Not necessarily true. At 100%+ is the final governor, be it internal damage, regardless of shutdown or override and keep moving/more damage. Using 3 soft HS thresholds @ 40-60-80% or 50-70-90% or two HS thresholds 50-75%, etc no self damage is being inflicted.

Take the Heavy Lasers, most people want to fire and move/twist but people are willing to suffer the long burn times to inflict higher damage. Now add a more functional heatscale. Said player has to decide at any moment if firing an alpha of heavy lasers, or would heavy laser/smaller lasers the better choice due to how his speed/agility will be affected?

No, just adding a more functional heatscale should NOT be the only item but there should be more soft thresholds in between lets do it til we actually can not (damage-shutdown).

#453 D34DMetal

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:16 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 13 June 2018 - 03:36 AM, said:


Not necessarily true. At 100%+ is the final governor, be it internal damage, regardless of shutdown or override and keep moving/more damage. Using 3 soft HS thresholds @ 40-60-80% or 50-70-90% or two HS thresholds 50-75%, etc no self damage is being inflicted.

Take the Heavy Lasers, most people want to fire and move/twist but people are willing to suffer the long burn times to inflict higher damage. Now add a more functional heatscale. Said player has to decide at any moment if firing an alpha of heavy lasers, or would heavy laser/smaller lasers the better choice due to how his speed/agility will be affected?

No, just adding a more functional heatscale should NOT be the only item but there should be more soft thresholds in between lets do it til we actually can not (damage-shutdown).

Yes I like this. The idea is that the player will need to make more choices than "I can load all this PPFLD and fire it at the same time before I hit the max heat threshold". With a proper heat-scale, players would need to navigate other effects such as the following:
  • mobility/agility and speed (maybe even adding in a feature like your torso twisting ability getting locked or torso twist speed getting drastically reduced after firing an alpha strike
  • increased weapon cool down times (could be after an alpha strike OR after a certain heat threshold like 40% heat)
  • weapon recoil or accuracy: again something depending on how much heat you have accumulated
I don't think it's a 100% perfect system, but it would be better than what we have now and it would be more substantial than adjusting ghost heat.

#454 Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:05 AM

Lower the heating of all the ballistic weapons, except for the AC-2, in order to make it more justified. (I do not need to put a balistik if I can buy a better laser robot) It would not be profitable to lower the chiller's capacity so much that it would shoot with more than 20 damage.
Thus, it will be meaningful to diversify the fighting with all types of weapons. Since now, the most effective weapons are lasers. And the robot under the volley of lasers lives less than before any other weapons. They more than justify themselves, even if deal 50 damage per volley.

#455 SlippnGriff

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:05 AM

TAKE ME HOOOOME, COUNTRY ROOOOOAAAD

Edited by SlippnGriff, 13 June 2018 - 05:05 AM.


#456 Nightbird

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 06:43 AM

View PostNightbird, on 12 June 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:

Energy draw for energy weapons and gauss.

Capacitor: 30 pts fixed.
Recharge: 15pts/sec

Only lasers, PPC, gauss use energy

Lasers, PPC use 1 pt per damage, gauss uses .5pt per damage

Behavior:
Lasers draw evergy as it fires, cuts off if runs out of energy (45 damage alpha possible with 1sec laser duration)

PPCs only fire if there is enough pts in total

Gauss draws energy as it charges, needs 15pt for dual gauss, 25 for dual heavy gauss, if run out of capacitor energy can charge at reduced rate as regen

Changes needed:
Large lasers need faster cooldown, medium lasers need slower cooldown, balance DPS/ton


Remove ghost heat from all affected weapons

View PostNightbird, on 12 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:


An example of clan gauss+vomit meta with this change:

If you have 2x C-Gauss and lasers, you can still charge your Gauss, which consumes 15pts over 0.75 seconds, at which point your capacitor will have regenerated to 27 pts, wait another 0.25 seconds for a full capacitor, and fire your gauss + vomit about 45 damage over a 1 second period for a total of 75 damage.

This is still a little higher than what IS can do, but a little less outrageously so. If the Night Star ever has its hands removed, it would be able to do IS gauss+vomit of 60 damage.

The major difference though, is that if you turn a corner and panic alpha, charging your gauss and vomiting at the same will choke your energy system, meaning your lasers get cut short and your gauss doesn't finish charging. This increases the skill needed to use this combo by a little.



Another benefit of this approach is that you allow people to mix and match lasers they want. Many mechs don't have the tonnage to run more than CERMLs, so the earlier proposed 4GH limit on them was cringe worthy. That been said, it must be made meaningful to use large lasers over the medium ones, and the easiest way I can think of is DPS versus alpha per ton.

Medium lasers are Alpha boosting/backup weapons, large lasers are low alpha/ton, high DPS weapons. The CHLL for example needs to have the same DPS as 4CERML to justify its existence. Do you want a big alpha once in a blue moon or do you want a gun you can shoot with minimal downtime? Medium pulse lasers likewise can be twice the DPS (2x tonnage) as well as having a more intense burn for its range tradeoff.

Edit: also want to note that while the 68 damage clan alpha today is nerfed by this idea..
You have to space your shots out, you get in return 2 things:
1. You can alpha more CERLL (4) (dps and duration prolly needs tweaking)
2. You can emulate a fast IS burn by shooting more lasers than your capacity and using the out of energy laser cutting mechanic to twist earlier.

Edited by Nightbird, 13 June 2018 - 06:59 AM.


#457 Mister Glitchdragon

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:08 AM

View PostChris Lowrey, on 08 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

[color=#FFA500]Option 3: [/color]
  • The Clan Gauss Rifle and all Clan Large Class Lasers are linked into the same heat penalty group.

I'll take option 3.

#458 Jman5

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:10 AM

A lot of people talking about heat being a balance issue and I agree. I wonder if part of the problem is that heatsinks scale linearly. Each heatsink improves performance by the same values whether you're adding your 12th heatsink or your 24th heatsink. Maybe a better approach would be to have the effectiveness of each individual heatsink decrease the more you add.

So in this example, adding your first heatsink does a lot, but adding your 20th heatsink isn't going to improve your build by all that much.

If you do this, you can better curtail some of the more overpowered builds without breaking the weapons themselves and screwing up builds that weren't a problem.

#459 Tesunie

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:31 AM

View PostDungeon 206, on 12 June 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

it was me. im sorry for DHGRing your CT.
and im sorry Pelmeshek and Vxheous for being the source of the argument.
Posted Image


Don't be apologizing for doing something the game lets you do (if it was you, not that it would matter). It's a sound strategy in this game at the moment.

My only reason for even bringing it up is more so the questions (which no one seemed to want to answer); Is this the TTK we are really looking for? Are we looking for a TTK where even heavy mechs (granted, a 60 ton mech, but still a heavy) can basically be killed in a single alpha form a single mech? (I believe crit damage finished me off, dealing the extra damage needed to drop me.)

If it is, then all is fine and we need to do nothing to change things. If that isn't want we want, then we need to make a change somewhere to prevent it from being possible or reduce the ability to do it without some kind of serious penalty.

If we don't want this TTK and choose to reduce/remove it, the new question becomes: How do we do this fairly? How do we desire to address this problem?


In this specific case, PGI has said "we don't want this in the game, how do you (the players) feel we should address this problem?" I was just trying to provide a reason why I agree with PGI, a case for those who say "naw, it's fine".

#460 Hydrocarbon

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:35 AM

View PostKanajashi, on 11 June 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:


Paul mentioned in his post that the community's balance document was a good starting point for the discussion and to direct feedback towards Chris in this forum thread.



What do you call all PGI's balance decisions placed at the bottom of the deepest sea? A start.

Stop UNFUNNING mwo with your nerfs already!





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