845 replies to this topic

[Yondu Udonta]

MiZia, on 25 June 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

Have to agree with you Carlo. Even more reading many of the posts and serching those people on Jarls.
Most that are concerned by those high alpha are at same time not really what i would call a good shot.

I almost cried at half the comments on this thread. Not tears of joy but tears of disappointment because of the amount of ignorance people are displaying. How about instead of addressing the high damage meta we address the level of pilot skill because from what I can deduce from this thread is that torso-twisting is Lostech to most pilots. Why not add to the academy lessons on how to torso twist, deadside shield, poke with minimal exposure and hop with jumpjets. Increase TTK by teaching people how to increase the longevity of their mechs instead of nerfing the tech.

Edited by Yondu Udonta, 25 June 2018 - 01:57 AM.

[Noguchi-san]

Yondu Udonta, on 25 June 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

I almost cried at half the comments on this thread. Not tears of joy but tears of disappointment because of the amount of ignorance people are displaying. How about instead of addressing the high damage meta we address the level of pilot skill because from what I can deduce from this thread is that torso-twisting is Lostech to most pilots. Why not add to the academy lessons on how to torso twist, deadside shield, poke with minimal exposure and hop with jumpjets. Increase TTK by teaching people how to increase the longevity of their mechs instead of nerfing the tech.

THIS!

[Doomich]

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

...

Warning, Incoming Missile
Warning, the following message will look offensive

I'll be pretty rude now, but you asked for it.

Spoiler

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

Can we completely scramble ANY idea about adding anything random into the game? Randomness (especially when it interferes with core gameplay like aiming) punishes good and skillful players.

CS pro scene is laughing in your face
Because it makes you show your true skill, not 94 alpha direwolf run

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

If you face tank a 94 alpha strike direwolf (which has an optimal range of 450 meters with maxed range skills) I don't know what you should expect: you die horribly. If you torso twist or you move to spread out the damage, guess what, you survive and you have another ~6 seconds to shoot and hide.

Haha, torsotwist! Turn to the left - lose RT. And now turn to the right - lose LT. Well done, you saved your CT

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

Instead of decrease accuracy for every weapon, why not INCREASE accuracy for non pinpoint weapons, like SRMs, MRMs, LBXs etc.?

Hey, are you still with us? Hello? Are you okay?

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

the issue is not the fact I can 94 alpha strike you in the CT at ~450-600 meters, the issue is that you let me do it because you had to face me the whole time.

Come on, use that torsotwist and lose half the firepower in your ST!
You still have your CT, hold on!

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

Now, I have this build (94 alpha strike direwolf) which is the only build I can think of that can manage to have that alpha strike even anywhere sustainable

Congratulations, your gameplay is officially called direwolf warrior online

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

• Do you have a fast light and I happen to be alone?

Deserved to die

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

• Do you have another vomit laser build? Well, you do not trade with a direwolf pointing specifically at you. You either fire first when I'm poking or you wait for me to fire at somebody else, then you backup your friend or whoever I've shot my alpha strike at. If I have to change aim from one cover to another, I'll still likely spread the damage once I start firing to my new target.

1. Get alpha in your CT
2. Turn away
3. Now choose one:
3.1. turn back and die from the second alpha
3.2. walk sideways all remaining timee

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

• Do you have a dakka build? I can apply more damage in a shorter time at 450 meters optimal range with max skills and still deal a good amount of damage at ~550 meters, but you will definitely win the DPS race if I don't torso twist / tank properly or if I get caught in the open. Did I cored your CT with a single strike? Then start torso twisting right before I'm firing my 2nd alpha strike and you will survive.

See previous ^
...
ask to start torosotwist with DPS build?
Best ******* advice, ty

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

• Are you a LRM / ATM boat?

No comments

CarloArmato, on 24 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

And I didn't even touched the deathstrike (which is way more scarier due to the fact it can actually poke) and AC2 dakka boats, which are still pinpoint with very good aiming and can out DPS you at range while also suppressing you / scrambling your aim.

oh no! deathstrike! please no!



All those who support this - I can call you regular casual player.
You think that torsotwist and gauss firing is an achievement! Haha.
It's just forced, and it's pretty simple.
And something tells me that in shooters you prefer a sniper class.

You did not play in the tabletop BT and you have no idea what you're talking about.
With tabletop mechanics, this game should have elements of randomness, but in a shooter a player with skill can compensate for this
And you're just afraid that your alpha will stop blowing the torso with two shots, because you can't do anything else.

my God, I got an epiphany.. You're assault! How can you not kill anyone with a single shot? Oh oh

upd (moved from spoiler):
You did not play in the tabletop BT and you have no idea what you're talking about.
With tabletop mechanics, this game should have elements of randomness, but in a shooter a player with skill can compensate for this

Edited by Doomich, 25 June 2018 - 05:08 AM.

[Yondu Udonta]

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

You did not play in the tabletop BT and you have no idea what you're talking about.
With tabletop mechanics, this game should have elements of randomness, but in a shooter a player with skill can compensate for this
And you're just afraid that your alpha will stop blowing the torso with two shots, because you can't do anything else.

Is MWO a RTS turn-based game? Or a FPS? Torso-twisting is to spread damage across components instead of having damage focused on one component, not mitigate damage taken. You trying to use tabletop BT stuff and translating it to the real game is ridiculous.

[Doomich]

Yondu Udonta, on 25 June 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Is MWO a RTS turn-based game? Or a FPS? Torso-twisting is to spread damage across components instead of having damage focused on one component, not mitigate damage taken. You trying to use tabletop BT stuff and translating it to the real game is ridiculous.

Are you kidding me??
We have all the elements taken from the board game! Hello!
And first of all it concerns the characteristics of the weapon!
I said that you have no idea what you're talking about

upd:
read post #693 pls

Edited by Doomich, 25 June 2018 - 05:20 AM.

[McHoshi]

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

Are you kidding me??
We have all the elements taken from the board game! Hello!
And first of all it concerns the characteristics of the weapon!
I said that you have no idea what you're talking about

upd:
read post #693 pls

Battletech and Mechwarrior is not one and the same.
What works in a RTS like Battletech will NEVER work in a Shooter like Mechwarrior.

Also i do not understand the High Alpha Problematik at all because bringing those 94 Alpha into one single Component is mostly not possible - maybe at the lower Tiers ( never been there ). Every good Player is able ( or at least should be able ) to roll the Damage. But there is the exception of the Dual Heavy Gauss, because you just can't roll away that damage!

[Yondu Udonta]

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

Are you kidding me??
We have all the elements taken from the board game! Hello!
And first of all it concerns the characteristics of the weapon!
I said that you have no idea what you're talking about

upd:
read post #693 pls

Not worth my time arguing. Probably terrible at this game. Go back and play Tabletop BT if you want elements of that game. MWO is part of Battletech but that doesn't mean that everything in Tabletop must be included in MWO. Want me to roll a die and see where my weapons hit? Lets just remove all elements of skill eh?

[Doomich]

McHoshi, on 25 June 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Battletech and Mechwarrior is not one and the same.
What works in a RTS like Battletech will NEVER work in a Shooter like Mechwarrior.

Isn't that what we're talking about?
So, now can you explain to me why we use the tabletop weapon characteristics (which does not allow pinpoint) in a shooter without spread?

McHoshi, on 25 June 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:

Also i do not understand the High Alpha Problematik at all because bringing those 94 Alpha into one single Component is mostly not possible

1 vs 1, ye, and the one who has more DPS will win
Very exciting gameplay. Turn around, shoot, turn away
It's like babymechs and not on battlemechs who can withstand a huge amount of damage and fight like sumo wrestlers
and who use blocking by another part at the right time and not always
The obvious solution is to find a compromise between the shooter and the tablettop. And this compromise is a controlled spread, which can realize the mechanics taken from tabletop

[CarloArmato]

There I go, point by point.

TL;DR version is: it looks like you want to play a tabletop turn based game, not a Real Time shooter. If I would like to play with RNGs, I would be playing a card game or an actual strategy game: if I'm skilled enough to make a "called shot" on a component, I can't understand why the game should force me to behave like a crappy AI.

Do you really think that changing the game to a stare contest will make it engaging? Because that is how it sounds like how you are wishing it will become: no need to torso twist, just keep on shooting aiming for CT hoping that the RNG god will roll a torso hit instead of an arm or a leg.

Spoiler

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Quote

Can we completely scramble ANY idea about adding anything random into the game? Randomness (especially when it interferes with core gameplay like aiming) punishes good and skillful players.

CS pro scene is laughing in your face
Because it makes you show your true skill, not 94 alpha direwolf run

Sure: the first shot of an AK47 one-hit-on-the-head-one-kill never lands at the center of a crosshair if you are standing still, so Headshots are NEVER possible. Oh, and what about recoil patterns? Definitely predictable. That's not randomness: it's predicting movement and recoil which are an element of randomness, it's not completely random or off you reticule, you know the bullet will land ALMOST exactly in that position. In CS:GO the actual spread of a weapon is pretty low to none in the right conditions: getting to that right condition while moving (step-firing or whatever it was called) is damn hard. Hitting a cockpit while both are moving is extremely hard if not close range or not moving sideways.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Haha, torsotwist! Turn to the left - lose RT. And now turn to the right - lose LT. Well done, you saved your CT

You are saying that like ALL the damage MUST hit one, and only ONE, component in any given case. It is true that MOST of the damage will hit the intended component, but it's not true at all that you can't take from 1/3rd to half the damage on CT and the rest on a side torso.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Hey, are you still with us? Hello? Are you okay?

I am. What's your argument about it?

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Come on, use that torsotwist and lose half the firepower in your ST!
You still have your CT, hold on!

Same as before: you are saying that like ALL the damage MUST hit one, and only ONE, component in any given case, which is not entirely true.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Congratulations, your gameplay is officially called direwolf warrior online

Try that build. Seriously. DO IT.
First in solo quick play, then in Public Group.
You will notice how you will get your face wrecked in public group most of times compared to solo queue because you are a fat, giant, slow washing machine with little to no torso twist and a huge CT.
I've only recalled later that the main offender is the Deathstrike because it's fast and it is too agile for the firepower it can unleash. THIS build is scary because it can hide as fast as it will shoot the whole alpha strike, not the direwolf. If you own one, try it and let me know how much low skill is required to kill an opponent without spreading damage during those 1.55 second duration. You will see pretty clear how the Deathstrike needs a nerf, not the direwolf.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Deserved to die

I never said it should not be dead.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

1. Get alpha in your CT
2. Turn away
3. Now choose one:
3.1. turn back and die from the second alpha
3.2. walk sideways all remaining timee

Assuming a 1v1. You have other 11 people with you, just saying. And in solari 1vs1 every direwolf / deathstrike I've encountered got its *** kicked because of the lack of DPS compared to ballistics.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

See previous ^
...
ask to start torosotwist with DPS build?
Best ******* advice, ty

1vs1 solaris. I have dual heavy gauss +MLs annihilator and I'm facing a 6xAC2 + MLs annihilator. Due to the fact I always fire laser first and gauss later, my opponent slightly torso twists to spread the incoming dual gausses on the freshiest side torso. He doesn't fire 1-2 shots worth of AC2, but I miss my 50 point damage strike which is fired every 6 seconds while he loses ~1.5-3 seconds worth of damage. Just because it's hard to do it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

No comments

Why not?

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

All those who support this - I can call you regular casual player.
You think that torsotwist and gauss firing is an achievement! Haha.
It's just forced, and it's pretty simple.
And something tells me that in shooters you prefer a sniper class.

***** please: I've always been a decent to good pilots (jets, helicopters, tanks) and as an infantry I've mostly preferred assault / front line classes to support pushes by reviving / resupplying. I played scout / snipers only where there was nothing else to do or there was a complete lack of intelligence on the field.

About MWO, what's wrong about torso twisting? Don't you think about the fact that if you make ANY weapon not pinpoint anymore, it would just be exploited another way? Due to the fact there is no weapon capable of concentrate damage on a single component at optimal conditions, there will only be a race for who deals the most DPS with the least spread while having the most tank (*cough* annihilator *cough*), or mounting EVERY weapon on a single side and tank the whole incoming damage on a dead side torso to reduce incoming damage (marauder 3R dual LBX10). Why marauder is not meta? Because there are pinpoint builds which can focus that same side torso. What would prevent a marauder to only expose a side torso as a bait while the comrades hammer whoever is waiting for the right moment to shot? Oh, guess what, you can do it even against another pinpoint build if it can't shot or focus the right component.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

You did not play in the tabletop BT and you have no idea what you're talking about.
With tabletop mechanics, this game should have elements of randomness, but in a shooter a player with skill can compensate for this

Assume that we have identical mechs, armed only with RACs. One of the 2 mechs will always jam more often or earlier and die, while the other will survive. This case is not skill based.

Being it increased laser duration, reduced ERML damage or whatever, any of the suggested from PGI will only delay or shift the problem, it will not resolve it.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

You did not play in the tabletop BT and you have no idea what you're talking about.
With tabletop mechanics, this game should have elements of randomness, but in a shooter a player with skill can compensate for this

First thing: there is no way you can make work a balanced Real Time FPS shooter with a table top game rules for the simple reason they resolve common issues differently, e.g. fast mech moving between 2 covers very close. I don't know if it is a case managed in the table top, but if I need to move from point A (LoS blocked), to point B (exposed and clear LoS) and finally point C (LoS blocked), in RT FPS game you have a small time window to spot / shoot the fast target, in a table top you have no chance to do it.
Also, don't forget that the tabletop game involves tanks, helicopters, jets, dropships, turrets (I hated calliope turrets in MW4), elementals and maybe even infantry... Here everything is simply mech vs mech action, so most weapons that could be useful against smaller targets, here in MWO are plain UP or useless.

The other point is that player skill can compensate about in game randomness it's not completely true. No matter how much someone can be good, LBXs, LRMs, MRMs, SRMs will spread damage, while Gausses, single pellet AC, PPCs will never spread and finally UACs and lasers could spread, depending on player ability to track the target and the target's own awereness and reflexes to attempt to spread the damage. That's why most meta involve either autocannons, gauss and lasers, while other spread weapons are ignored with very few exceptions due to very high alpha / low heat but good DPS (namely LBX20, SRM6).

MRMs are not competitive: they always spread too much even at close range (plus tonnage, heat, etc.)
LRMs are not competitive because they can be easily countered by proper usage of cover and ingame skills (radar deprivation), plus they won't deal any damage close range. Pretty much the same goes for ATMs: pretty much too situational.

Do you really think that changing the game to a stare contest will make it engaging? Because that is how it sounds like how you are wishing it will become: no need to torso twist, just keep on shooting aiming for CT hoping that the RNG god will roll a torso hit instead of an arm or a leg.

Edited by CarloArmato, 25 June 2018 - 07:29 AM.

[Doomich]

Yondu Udonta, on 25 June 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

Not worth my time arguing. Probably terrible at this game. Go back and play Tabletop BT if you want elements of that game. MWO is part of Battletech but that doesn't mean that everything in Tabletop must be included in MWO. Want me to roll a die and see where my weapons hit? Lets just remove all elements of skill eh?

Have you ever heard of a controlled spread?
I think no.

Have you even read this thread?
No one offers to move the entire tabletop mechanic!
MWO already has tabletop elements, because this game is based on this! what are you talking about?!
AC20 deals 20 damage because it was not meant to cause damage to the same area in a row, and 4 med laser should not do the same!
The tabletope characteristics were moved to a pinpoint shooter, and are you trying to prove to me that this is normal?

And if you offer me to play only in the tabletop, I also suggest you to play MW4 and don't go with your casual pve gameplay in the pvp game.
Because I'm here for mechwarrior pvp, and it looks ugly when it combine incongruous things

Edited by Doomich, 25 June 2018 - 08:05 AM.

[Doomich]

CarloArmato, on 25 June 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

...

Spare me this demagoguery. I read it all

All we need to know about your opinion is in this phrases:

CarloArmato said:

Want me to roll a die and see where my weapons hit? Lets just remove all elements of skill eh?
...
if I'm skilled enough to make a "called shot" on a component, I can't understand why the game should force me to behave like a crappy AI.
...
Do you really think that changing the game to a stare contest will make it engaging? Because that is how it sounds like how you are wishing it will become: no need to torso twist, just keep on shooting aiming for CT hoping that the RNG god will roll a torso hit instead of an arm or a leg.

This exaggeration is rather miserable
It's like a casual selfish player words.
You see only what you want to see. My condolences.
It fully shows your opinion and desire to swim in this swamp and enjoy the degradation that you can't or don't want to see, because you can't imagine what people are talking about here

BECAUSE

Thousands of times it was said that the proposed changes can be controlled by the player skill, and without moving you get the same 100% accuracy for example, and all other characteristics can be configured more flexibly
And yes, it will require more skils from player, and not just press 1 button and rotate your torso.



You all, stop talking about that tabletope can't be combined with fps.
this should be done, because we are starting from the tabletop, but NOBODY WANTS TO COMBINE THEM COMPLETELY, HELLO!
It is better to talk about how to do it!
Just if you take damage value from tabletop weapons, then you must make countermeasures for pinpoint! Because the damage from this weapon is not intended for tunnel damage in one component!
And the controllable spread is one of the better solutions.

[Shaggath]

This post become stupid.

Actually faction play is ..... understand we don't care.

So implement asap the possibility to make game with only is clan or both.
Like that clan crybaby stay playing her ****** meta in her side.
And the other play something more balance.
After 3 month like that you can see mentality will have evolved and they will come here asked herself for nerf.
I think if you do that we can see 80 % IS game lauched 0 % clan games and 20 % both launched with only clan inside.
And player have the choice.

THIS STATE IS HERE FOR TOO LONG NOW.

If you remember long time ago is gauss have heritate her mechanic to addressed pinpoint 60 alpha ... now we have 94 pinpoint alpha .....
After if you really want to address the big problem stop make the blind all energy clan weapon have anormal room size.
ER large for 1 erppc for 2 each hardpoint can have one no limitation. mix all atoms weapon to avoid ghost heat tada 94.

Edited by Shaggath, 25 June 2018 - 12:15 PM.

[Reno Blade]

If we want to keep TTK high, reduce alphas and so on...
Sure a CoF or Ghost Heat can spread out damage, but it's also possible to achieve most of the effect (dmg spread/missed) by "nerfing" the weapons to be harder to use.

E.g. the uAC20 is "too hard to use" compared to other weapons, as many people claim.
PPCs got slowed down and without quirks they are "not easy".
MRMs are also very spread compared to SRMs.

all the "difficult" weapons are best used against slow targets (assaults).


Other blaim the slow agility of mechs since Engine Desync to be the sole cause of the killing power of the large alphas.
-> Sure it's even easier to core an assault than an light, because they are not turning/twisting or moving as fast.
BUT: even if you can twist away some of the alphas (it might work with Laser, MRMs and UAC20, but does not work against SRM, Gauss or LBX), the sheer amount of damage will cripple you so fast, that you don't have much benefit from twisting.

With this environment, you are basically denying mechs that are not outrunning or out-damaging your build.
There is no place for a slow medium, even slow heavies/assaults can eat dust against fast and strong builds.


So, I believe that there is only one way to get longer battles that are more exciting than two-shotting everything:
- Increase weapon difficulty overall
- Reduce Alpha dmg overall
This can be achived by some Ghost Heat or better, with improved Energy Draw for the overall damage output.
And longer burn/burst/charge or volley durations or higher amount of spread/splash.

[The6thMessenger]

Wouldn't it be funny if they made Clan Gauss also burst fire? Lol.

To be fair, there are concepts about the AP effect of multiple bullets hitting the same spot, so maybe Clan Gauss would capitalize on that?

Like have it 2400 velocity, of 0.06 interval between fire, and fires 3 slugs each dealing 5 damage.

[CarloArmato]

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Thousands of times it was said that the proposed changes can be controlled by the player skill, and without moving you get the same 100% accuracy for example, and all other characteristics can be configured more flexibly

So you are promoting both running and gunning with homing missiles and camping and forming up a firing line compared to poking said firing line, because if I want to poke, my aim will be crappy compared to a guy waiting for my poke. Nope, sounds garbage to me, even if it is common in other tactical shooters.

Also, this won't work properly in MWO because not every mech has a ~90° yaw angle, which means side stepping (or the mech equivalent) is not possible with any mech (direwolf, kodiak, battlemaster, to name the few I remember right now). Also, keep in mind at the moment with the current maps is not always possible to poke from different angles or locations, further enhancing this issue... And don't forget about fighting the same identical build: if you are promoting standing still versus poking, whoever pokes at a non optimal range will likely lose the trade or at least be less efficient compared to one who already positioned himself where it think it will be better.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

And yes, it will require more skils from player, and not just press 1 button and rotate your torso.

Because waiting for someone to poke and firing while he has the disvantage of the first shot is totally fair, fun and engaging.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Just if you take damage value from tabletop weapons, then you must make countermeasures for pinpoint! Because the damage from this weapon is not intended for tunnel damage in one component!
And the controllable spread is one of the better solutions.

How do you make controllable spread even barely predictable for such weapons like autocannons? By adding another hidden patter / game feature which you will never know it exists unless you consult the forums or any out-of-the-game wikia (like XL engine side torso loss and stealth armor) or by adding another crosshair that you need to follow?

Also, stop comparing 4xML with an AC20, because you keep on ignoring the fact you have to hold the aim on the same component for 0.9 seconds. If it seems a low time, try focusing a single component of any fast light or medium that is actively engaging you: good luck popping one of his side torsoes if he doesn't manage to run straight and perform a bad torso twist: it's still hard even with MPLs.
You will very likely spread the damage across at least 3 components or just 2 if you can only see one side and CT is almost completely hidden. The fact that you can focus fire a single component only applies to the slowest heavies and assaults.

Also, consider this: if 4xML are required to match 1xAC20...
20 damage, 6 heat, 4 second cooldown, 14 ton +2 ton ammo = 16 tons, 10 slots
5x4=20 damage, 3.4*4=13.6 heat, 3.5s+0.9s=4.4 seconds (cooldown + duration), 4 slots.
To achieve a similar heat efficiency (AC20 has 1.5 hps, 4xML has 0.77 hps) we need 1.5-(0.77*4)=1.58 hps from DHS, so we need at least 1.58 hds / 0.15 hps = 10 DHS (4+10 tons, 4+30 slots). Nearly same tonnage, requires way more DHS (and yes, I know I've ignored the internal DHS, so this won't really apply in-game, but it proves how much better AC20 is compared to 4xML when engaging small targets and running hot).

So ML can spread the damage during those 0.9 seconds, but it will become very slightly better with ERML because it actually deal very slightly more damage over second compared to IS (5.5 vs 5.6). Still, longer cooldown, spreads the damage, same alpha.

We are talking about adding a new gameplay feature that will scramble your aim when there is already a similar feature right now: both Jump jets and Heavy gauss will randomly move the actual aiming pointer in a single random fixed location far away from the center of the hud, which is nowhere close to be meant to be balanced if not to prevent (or, in fact, limit) poptarting... Plus it's not even close to anything PGI suggested or will probably do to fix it.

If they can manage to do something that slightly disrupt your aim when firing and that can be countered by a human being, it could be worth a shot (I higly doubt it it will be worth it). If you add the fact it should trigger greater swing the hotter your are or when you are moving, things will degenerate to simply prefer DHS over weapons to never reach that swing threshold (or limit that swing as much as you can with the highest alpha / DPS sustainable to keep on pinpointing despite the nerf), or no one poking at all and simply waiting for a push if a team knows the other team is already settled on a better position.

How about gauss rifles? Because table top will roll a dice for every shot, then I would need to chain fire them with even the charge time? They would become useless.

You can't stop the DPS / alpha pinpoint race. Meta will just shift to something slower and probably even more boring and less compelling (or fulfilling) due to the fact you could exploit homing missiles as a 2nd wave alpha strike (MPLs alpha first and ATMs alpha later, for example... Or do you want to nerf poor missile precision?).

Would be really worth it to add another reason to force players not to shoot?
If there ever gonna be a nerf, it should hit those specific mechs and builds, not the weapons themselves. The only thing that I could think of to help player tank those damage without recurring to ghost heat is to increase laser duration (increase duration even IS side and lower cooldown to keep the DPS), but that will affect any build.

A swinging crosshair would probably kill any chance for a lighter mech to solo kill a bigger mech at range, especially in solaris.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Said it before, make everything one heat one dmg, and 10m range, problem solved.

[Doomich]

CarloArmato, on 25 June 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

bla bla bla

Spoiler

Damn son, what nonsense lol

Have you already made any changes and set the values???
You can't distinguish the concept from your assumptions about how it will look like!
Your arguments are literally sucked from your finger, you are like an inexperienced polemicist who has to say something.

Oh no, lasers should be hold on this light! Wow! It's not AC!
What? AC20 has a projectile speed and must calculate prediction?

You understood what I meant, but you need to write 9000 words about the fact that 4 med lasers are not AC20. Are you really dumb and don"t see the point? Or is my explanation too complicated?
I'm tired of you, because you pour so much water that I could not even finish reading your poem. Leave it for yourself.

just go play your alpha-meta-onebutton-megafun-direwolfs builds pls
You are a weakling, because instead of solving the problem, you simply took the side of this proble.
So beware of my locust and enjoy the remaining time until there are no changes, you will have time to complain after any changes are released, save your breath for this.
Farewell one-button gameplay fan

[Jonathan8883]

Reno Blade, on 24 June 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

While a CoF or some other convergence topics come up from time to time, I think the engine limits the possible changes too much.

Otherwise, we could have paralel reticules for torso mounted weapons and converging + swaying reticules for the arms like this:

I want to play with this reticle.

[CarloArmato]

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Have you already made any changes and set the values???

You can't distinguish the concept from your assumptions about how it will look like!
Your arguments are literally sucked from your finger, you are like an inexperienced polemicist who has to say something.

***** please, did YOU set any value about how much the aim should shake or swing or any proof of concept rather than "since it works in the tabletop game, it will work as expected despite the actual videogame doesn't features everything from the whole tabletop game"?
About being inexperienced, did you ever bothered checking Jarls, open any of solaris leaderboards or visit some build sites like mechspecs? Just saying.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Oh no, lasers should be hold on this light! Wow! It's not AC!
What? AC20 has a projectile speed and must calculate prediction?

AC20 needs to anticipate enemy movement, while lasers needs to track enemy movement... So, what's the matter? If I hit you with an AC20, you get 20 pinpoint damage where I hit, otherwise I completely miss the shot. If I use lasers, the result will range from missing completely (very rare) to a partial miss / damage or apply full damage.
Not necessarily every single point of damage will hit you (especially the same component), unless you aimbot. From my experience I tend to have an easier time ruining a light day or killing it with a well placed dual autocannon or dual gauss rather than any common lasers vomit for the simple reason lasers are easier to use, but it's harder to maintain the crosshair over the same component.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

You understood what I meant, but you need to write 9000 words about the fact that 4 med lasers are not AC20. Are you really dumb and don"t see the point? Or is my explanation too complicated?
I'm tired of you, because you pour so much water that I could not even finish reading your poem. Leave it for yourself.

Yeah I tend to be too verbose, sorry for that.
About your explanation, tell me how it would be balanced to force spread on lasers. The issue of lasers becoming pinpoint will apply if you either do not torso twists or you are using something bigger than a 45 tonner. If aiming reticule swing is predictable, it could work, BUT I'm very doubtful about HOW aiming reticule could be predictable.

If aiming reticule shake is completely random, then it will simply disrupt aim, so you are making EVERY weapon in the game like a RAC or an MRM.

Meta will probably shift to sustain aim stability and apply a final "alpha strike" with homing weapons, like ATMs or LRMs for ranged combat or, even worse, perma-chainfire lasers / PPCs. Also, you can't remove torso twist and if you do really "limit" torso twist by applying the same aiming penalty when simply yawing, you will make the game unplayable.

Doomich, on 25 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

just go play your alpha-meta-onebutton-megafun-direwolfs builds pls
You are a weakling, because instead of solving the problem, you simply took the side of this proble.
So beware of my locust and enjoy the remaining time until there are no changes, you will have time to complain after any changes are released, save your breath for this.
Farewell one-button gameplay fan

Fun fact: I've never finished skilling that direwolf because that mech sucks, and that very same build is so old that it was depicted as an old meta build even on metamechs site itself.

MetaMechs said:

Before there was Gauss Vomit, there was the Space Whale. One of the first builds to be used on the Dire Wolf, the original Space Whale was a goddamn menace, and the the style has persisted ever since. It has fallen out of favor due (in part) to its high exposure time, but it still has a simply ridiculous alpha, manageable weapon groups, and even some shielding ability.

Have you ever tried that direwolf? Because that very direwolf was just a bait to see if you were actually aware of the fact that this very old "Space Whale" build is not an issue: it will get his face wrecked by most assaults right now because it's slow, sluggish and unusable in most situations (very easy to isolate side torso, big CT, no armor / structure quirks, very bad torso yaw). When I previously asked you if you ever tried that build in quickplay both solo and public group, I really meant that.

In fact, this Deathstrike is an issue because it can get away due to better maneuverability, good torso yaw, nice hitboxes, has shield arms, very good hardpoints so it can even hill poke... But it has 1.5 second laser duration.
You can't poke and tank with a DireWolf like you would do with a Deathstrike, that's why you will rarely find a Space Whale, while the deathstrike has become a common sight despite being incapable of firing two alpha strike sequentially.

Have you ever played either that space whale or the deathstrike? Because if not, simply shut up: you really don't know what you are talking about.

EDIT: one last word: in FP, I've always preferred to play IS rather than clan. Just saying.

Edited by CarloArmato, 26 June 2018 - 05:15 AM.

[ZloySergant]

Why just not divide weapon hardpoints in several groups (e.g. small/med/big) and restrict weapons to that groups (for ex. you can't put a erml into small energy hardpoint)?

Edited by ZloySergant, 26 June 2018 - 03:07 AM.