845 replies to this topic

[CarloArmato]

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

Why just not divide weapon slots in several groups (e.g. small/med/big) and restrict weapons to that groups (for ex. you can't put a erml into small slot)?

Because you would force some mechs to have a particular build or role and, to be fair, it would require a lot of work to PGI to rework EVERY mech in the game. Even if it could solve some problems, it could probably create new issues with old mechs: just think about the fact old negative quirks of the timberwolf has been "hidden" and integrated in the base stats, instead of removed. That mech is nowhere powerfull or anywhere close to be OP compared to years ago.

For instance, if you force a Deathstrike to only mount medium lasers, 6xERML + 2xGR is still a lot of firepower (72 damage) with good precision, despite some IS mech can achieve similar results (Mauler 2P, for example with an identical build can achieve 60 damage, despite being slower and literally have nowhere the same good hitboxes). Forcing a deathstrike to fit Small Lasers in some hardpoints IMHO would be madness and maddening: DeathStrike stock loadout has 4xMPL and 2xERML.

Even if it is meant to nerf OP mechs, on the other hand it could hurt "legit" and "almost harmless" troll builds like AC20 raven, AC10 spider, HPPC locust (or 3xLPPC), dual Heavy Gauss catapult and many others... Or simply kill some variant that will not be able fit that huge weapon it is mainly relying on, like a brawler AC20 Cicada 3M (stock ballistic is an UAC5) or any dual ballistic Warhammer 6R (default ballistics are dual machinegun)

[ZloySergant]

CarloArmato, on 26 June 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Because you would force some mechs to have a particular build or role and, to be fair, it would require a lot of work to PGI to rework EVERY mech in the game. Even if it could solve some problems, it could probably create new issues with old mechs: just think about the fact old negative quirks of the timberwolf has been "hidden" and integrated in the base stats, instead of removed. That mech is nowhere powerfull or anywhere close to be OP compared to years ago.

For instance, if you force a Deathstrike to only mount medium lasers, 6xERML + 2xGR is still a lot of firepower (72 damage) with good precision, despite some IS mech can achieve similar results (Mauler 2P, for example with an identical build can achieve 60 damage, despite being slower and literally have nowhere the same good hitboxes). Forcing a deathstrike to fit Small Lasers in some hardpoints IMHO would be madness and maddening: DeathStrike stock loadout has 4xMPL and 2xERML.

Even if it is meant to nerf OP mechs, on the other hand it could hurt "legit" and "almost harmless" troll builds like AC20 raven, AC10 spider, HPPC locust (or 3xLPPC), dual Heavy Gauss catapult and many others... Or simply kill some variant that will not be able fit that huge weapon it is mainly relying on, like a brawler AC20 Cicada 3M (stock ballistic is an UAC5) or any dual ballistic Warhammer 6R (default ballistics are dual machinegun)

Yep, it will mostly force builds more close to original builds. Thats the point. And, btw, don't forget it'll make some mechs more viable in new circumstances.
For the case of DS. How would it put 2xGS if, for ex. one ballistic hardpoint would be big and one medium, or both are meds (let's presume GR=big)? And base 62 alpha (or less ) is not bad for an assault, IMO.
On the other side Glassome (AWS-8Q) _may_ become a viable mech with, for ex. 3xbig, 1xsmall, and 3xmed energy hardpoints.

[Doomich]

CarloArmato, on 25 June 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:

*tons of water*

My God, you are still pouring this water, you are really crazy
Re-read my previous message to you if you want

You don't know who is a polemicist, right? (I was talking about an inexperienced polemicist). I will show you.
Admit, your love for a one-button gameplay is comparable to my love for a board game, haha.

Now I'm waiting for the next page of your poem, please continue!
How about the fact that you still have not offered any good solution and still could not prove that the spread is not needed? * takes out a microphone *

[ZloySergant]

Doomich, on 26 June 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

My God, you are still pouring this water, you are really crazy
Re-read my previous message to you if you want

You don't know who is a polemicist, right? (I was talking about an inexperienced polemicist). I will show you.
Admit, your love for a one-button gameplay is comparable to my love for a board game, haha.

Now I'm waiting for the next page of your poem, please continue!
How about the fact that you still have not offered any good solution and still could not prove that the spread is not needed? * takes out a microphone *

Nope. I (though i'm not him) must say, random spread is not needed. WoT model is horrible. Maybe something like ARMA/WarThunder is better.

Edited by ZloySergant, 26 June 2018 - 08:36 AM.

[Doomich]

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Nope. I (though i'm not him) must say, random spread is not needed. WoT model is horrible. Maybe something like ARMA/WarThunder is better.

Dude, stop thinking that the thing we're talking about is a shot in a random direction after the first lmb click.
Start reading the previous pages and be informed

Here it is suggested to limit the free huge damage: the more you try to inflict damage in the minimum period of time, the more accuracy you lose.
And in this case, weapons have huge options for balancing
Just think about the right values

Edited by Doomich, 26 June 2018 - 09:11 AM.

[CarloArmato]

Doomich, on 26 June 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

How about the fact that you still have not offered any good solution and still could not prove that the spread is not needed?

One of the following:

* Nerf deathstrike agility: overall a bad choice, due to the fact it won't fix the issue with newer mech which can fit the same build.

* Increase laser duration, while keeping the overall DPS the same (or slightly lower it). This will reduce the damage dealt over laser burn and give more time to response to an incoming alpha strike. If you wish to face tank a 2 second long heavy large laser, it's your choice because after that laser / alpha, you are free to move and shoot for other ~7 seconds.

* Buff every other weapon in the game: instead of nerfing something that still requires good aim to be used properly, why not buff everything else that would actually give more game variety and content? Most of the suggestion made in Community Panel's Weapon Balance seems fair enough to me.

Quote

Here it is suggested to limit the free huge damage: the more you try to inflict damage in the minimum period of time, the more accuracy you lose.

If you simply consider overall damage output, any build that features MRMs will be even more inaccurate.

By the way, have you ever played those huge alpha strike builds? Namely the Space Whale and the Hunter?

[CarloArmato]

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

Yep, it will mostly force builds more close to original builds. Thats the point.

The idea to play a slightly more custom MW:LL but without any other vehicle is not really appealing. I honestly dislike most stock build and the exceptions are really few.

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

And, btw, don't forget it'll make some mechs more viable in new circumstances.
For the case of DS. How would it put 2xGS if, for ex. one ballistic hardpoint would be big and one medium, or both are meds (let's presume GR=big)? And base 62 alpha (or less ) is not bad for an assault, IMO.

Yeah, 62 alpha strike is not bad if there would not be other assaults capable of dishing out 80 damage, like the annihilator 1X dual heavy gauss and 6xML or ERML... If you prevent such builds on IS side, then you could give it a go, but requires a lot of work and fine tuning which I bet PGI can't afford to take. Also, I still don't like the idea of having weapons limited by "hardpoint size", it would also mean that it would have been better to implement something like MW4 mechlab since the launch.

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

On the other side Glassome (AWS-8Q) _may_ become a viable mech with, for ex. 3xbig, 1xsmall, and 3xmed energy hardpoints.

Meh... Black knight 6B can fit and sustain very well 3xLL and 6xERML while respecting the "hardpoint size" rule... This is just to point out how hard the work would be for such a rework.
Plus, IMHO, IS PPCs are not really worth it and lasers have little to no sinergy with PPCs.

[Chris Lowrey]

We have posted an update on this topic here.

We will continue to monitor the discussion here and in this new announcement thread.

[Doomich]

CarloArmato, on 26 June 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

text

increase laser duration was already suggested, including by me - it became clear that almost nothing would change
And if you save the lasers DPS, then nothing will change at all
edit: don't talk about 0.0000001 changes that this will bring, or you will become a waterboy

In the current situation there is no buff for the weapon because it's normal or because it was nerfed for a reason
Lasers have always been the main weapon here, although most often they must be an auxiliary weapon
The community balance document is a good alternative, but the changes in it are interrelated and should be applied completely, and this should also be the focus of a separate discussion, which is what happens here

Your suggestion means that you are stuck in the current swamp and don't try to think in a different way.
Because all you think about is increase or decrease, and not change or add


Get in the discussion without knowing what has already been said is a bad form

Edited by Doomich, 26 June 2018 - 10:21 AM.

[ZloySergant]

Doomich, on 26 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

Dude, stop thinking that the thing we're talking about is a shot in a random direction after the first lmb click.
Start reading the previous pages and be informed

Here it is suggested to limit the free huge damage: the more you try to inflict damage in the minimum period of time, the more accuracy you lose.
And in this case, weapons have huge options for balancing
Just think about the right values

1. Don't try to think i'm more stupid then you are. I've read that crap. Try to think wider.
2. Any free options to do something bad to the balance will be exploited. Live with that.
3. Don't even think to balance weapons in the first place. That's a dead end. Balance mechs.

We do not need another WoT with several tanks (out of 100+) viable for competitive play (maybe something has already changed, but i do not care anymore).

CarloArmato, on 26 June 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

One of the following:

* Nerf deathstrike agility: overall a bad choice, due to the fact it won't fix the issue with newer mech which can fit the same build.

* Increase laser duration, while keeping the overall DPS the same (or slightly lower it). This will reduce the damage dealt over laser burn and give more time to response to an incoming alpha strike. If you wish to face tank a 2 second long heavy large laser, it's your choice because after that laser / alpha, you are free to move and shoot for other ~7 seconds.

* Buff every other weapon in the game: instead of nerfing something that still requires good aim to be used properly, why not buff everything else that would actually give more game variety and content? Most of the suggestion made in Community Panel's Weapon Balance seems fair enough to me.


If you simply consider overall damage output, any build that features MRMs will be even more inaccurate.

By the way, have you ever played those huge alpha strike builds? Namely the Space Whale and the Hunter?

Never ever nerf anything. Reduce possibilities to exploit weaknesses in design (well, technically saying, thats a nerf ).

CarloArmato, on 26 June 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

The idea to play a slightly more custom MW:LL but without any other vehicle is not really appealing. I honestly dislike most stock build and the exceptions are really few.


Yeah, 62 alpha strike is not bad if there would not be other assaults capable of dishing out 80 damage, like the annihilator 1X dual heavy gauss and 6xML or ERML... If you prevent such builds on IS side, then you could give it a go, but requires a lot of work and fine tuning which I bet PGI can't afford to take. Also, I still don't like the idea of having weapons limited by "hardpoint size", it would also mean that it would have been better to implement something like MW4 mechlab since the launch.


Meh... Black knight 6B can fit and sustain very well 3xLL and 6xERML while respecting the "hardpoint size" rule... This is just to point out how hard the work would be for such a rework.
Plus, IMHO, IS PPCs are not really worth it and lasers have little to no sinergy with PPCs.

1. I do remember "road accidents" from beta. And i want them back, really .
2. I do not care about "mechbay rework". It's simple. It's the easiest way (from a programmer point of view) to balance, well, maybe balance those mechs, return pieces of true crap back to the game, etc... BTW, my proposition won't take that much time and effort to change the current situation. At least not to change some server-side code.
3. A "crap" mech maybe, just "maybe", may become viable just because pilot has some skill. And it won't die just because it's a crap.
4. You won't need to make that 6B taller then Atlas.

Doomich, on 26 June 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

increase laser duration was already suggested, including by me - it became clear that almost nothing would change
And if you save the lasers DPS, then nothing will change at all
edit: don't talk about 0.0000001 changes that this will bring, or you will become a waterboy

In the current situation there is no buff for the weapon because it's normal or because it was nerfed for a reason
Lasers have always been the main weapon here, although most often they must be an auxiliary weapon
The community balance document is a good alternative, but the changes in it are interrelated and should be applied completely, and this should also be the focus of a separate discussion, which is what happens here

Your suggestion means that you are stuck in the current swamp and don't try to think in a different way.
Because all you think about is increase or decrease, and not change or add


Get in the discussion without knowing what has already been said is a bad form

Stop reintroducing simple tweaks. THE problem of this game is much wider and needs much more attention and changes.

For example, it could be something like:
1. Non-omni mechs are highly customizable (with respect to the hardpoint limit).
2. Omni do have omnipods with hard-wired weapons. Maybe some free hardpoints respecting the rule "more firepower == less armour/heatsinks/ammo". I still want Pryde TW with current -prime.
3. Due to the rule, most mechs WILL play their proposed role.
4. Whiners/perfectionists can go the way i'm currently thinking of.

[HiProfile]

In case anyone is curious, this is the 94-pnt high-alpha gauss/laser Clan mech that is causing this mess:

[Tesunie]

ZloySergant, on 26 June 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

Why just not divide weapon hardpoints in several groups (e.g. small/med/big) and restrict weapons to that groups (for ex. you can't put a erml into small energy hardpoint)?

Seen as that is what MW3/4 did... and I hated that form of customization for mechs... I'm gonna have to say no. Wasn't a fan of it there, and even then it didn't address balancing chassis at all. Instead, specific mechs where useful, everything else was garbage. (Especially seen as on those games most people's servers had no heat and no ammo, so 6-12 CERLL Novacat was the norm, and anything not an assault/heavy was basically not worth taking.)

Now, I'm not opposed to some restrictions, but you'll have to do a lot of convincing to get me on board that boat...

[Doomich]

Doomich, on 26 June 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

Guys.
About changes:

- c-gauss recoil will not make any changes, this will only add discomfort to those who don't play double gauss
- nerf c-lasers is a very strange decision if you are trying to reduce alpha in this way.

I think these are the best suggestions:

1) Recoil only for double gauss (ideally these are variable values ​​for all ballistics but with additional buffs like projectile speed for example)

2) Increasing the duration of all lasers (ALL LASERS) ~ x1.5-x2

3) AND MOST INTERESTING:
Additional heatsinks don't increase the HEAT CAP (engine heatsinks still increase it, but the value can be decreased)
And remove coolshots
Easy, simple solution.
Heat mechanics has been added to limit, don't forget about it please!

Alpha strike must be similar to the Ultimate ability.
Players should not use alpha every time.

moved

[dario03]

I don't really think clan lasers are all that great right now. A lot of what lets them work good in regular play is lower coordination of teams in solo and small groups games. Peak, shoot, repeat works because the teams don't always rush each other or focus fire that good which gives you plenty of time to fire. In comp though, teams can rush and focus so the hot mechs just don't have the time to put out the damage. I don't recall seeing a ton of clan laser boats in the last mrbc.

With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a change to the lasers. But not just a nerf. A simple damage decrease, but with a cooldown buff so that your dps is about the same but your alpha is lower should work. You will have to peak more often to get the same amount of damage out. Would also need to adjust the hp quirks on some mechs too though.

Clan Gauss should probably just get a cooldown or ammo nerf, or just buff those on the IS Gauss.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 26 June 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a change to the lasers. But not just a nerf. A simple damage decrease, but with a cooldown buff so that your dps is about the same but your alpha is lower should work. You will have to peak more often to get the same amount of damage out. Would also need to adjust the hp quirks on some mechs too though.

The thing is, that's supposed to be the way IS lasers play. But PGI keeps it such that the DPS and heat on the IS ER MedLas is uncompetitive with the Clan version. So the Clan laser boat currently has slightly better range, much better cooling, higher alpha, and higher DPS. The IS laser boat has better duration...but the damage on the Clan ones is so high that this doesn't factor in much except in ERLL trades and on Lights.

[Shadowomega1]

I still think 35 heat cap is the way to go, as it will hit the offenders the hardest, while buffing the weapon limited mechs with a cooling buff to the DHS's just like the SHS's just got.

[Irileth Pryde]

tbh option 1 for guass and lasers sounds really good and honestly would be beneficial but id like to see it in testing frankly i understand what PGI is trying to do and i was on the blargh clan laser nerf refund blood asp boat i play clan mech religiously my jarls list scores are not the best 67th percentile could be better but i have found that the laser vom on the clan side is far easier and i can get the same effective damage per match with other builds ppc/lb10 MCII-2 i have built a 94+ alpha whale that works with cool shot it deletes people hell i even see good use of spls and other considered underpowered weapon systems those two options wont change much but will require the laser vom players to consider there positioning far more then currently as you will no longer reliably be able to shear off a side torso in one volley but with better positioning a good player should be able to effectivly out menouver an opponent to get the second volley in with an increased firerate that would equal roughly that same damage output as previously seen it would also remove the liability off laser vom mechs being able to effectivly fight someone as they push if they manage there heat well most issues players face is bad positioning also staying still the ammount off anis atlas MCII kodiaks cyclopses i have cockpitted when they stay still is insane not to mention the static LRM boats who are effectivly a temparary area denial turret untill a decent light pilot of anyone pushes on them i look forward to seeing these on the test server as honestly if pgi keeps to there word with these the increased fire rate would be an insane buff to clan weapons but also remove the instant high damage potential id be even more happy if they gave us the HAGS 15/30/40 our guas miniguns essentially our heavy gauss/rotary hybrid having those in game would remove the salt off but IS have heavy guass id have no idea off how pgi would implement it but the MWLL way works a charm thou once again id look forward to seeing it on the testing server and i bet those who dont use the guass vomit builds as a crutch wont find any drawbacks in those two options if anything it would increase the effectivness off competant players and remove a barrier of entry "learning precse heat management" to newer players

EDIT: i do hope clan mobility increases or is structure quirks take a small hit. .. PS HAGS

Edited by Irileth Pryde, 27 June 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

Irileth Pride, you might want to restructure your post to make it easier to read.

[Whizbang AGNC]

Well the first thing you can do is quit trying to make the IS and Clan mechs equal. They are not and since MW2 never have been. The entire story doesn't even support it. The Clan mechs were supposed to be new designs by the clans as an answer to leaving and not having the access to IS mechs. They were always faster and more maneuverable with lighter armor and lighter bigger weapons. The toughness of the IS mechs more than made up for the difference. By nerfing them I have seen some very tough classic older builds made useless. The other thing you could do is get realistic with the weapons.

The original designs has the ballistic and missile weapons as the go to weapons when you started overheating because of your energy weapons. You have both generating almost as much heat as an energy weapon. That is a physical impossibility.

PPC's - As much as you might hate to admit it, just because a PPC fires with almost the same characteristics as a ballistic weapon, it is not a ballistic weapon. Therefore assigning a minimum range is impossible. One of the standing rules of physics is that energy can never be weaker closer to the source. Unless a PPC has a 90m barrel on it it is therefore a physical impossibility for it to cause no damage until that range.

LRM's and other non line of sight missiles - Something new has to be done here. All you need for a winning match is the most LRM boats. Sit back behind a hill and wipe out the other side. This game is turning into people standing as far apart as possible and firing missiles until the end. Something needs to be done to get these people into the fight.

Gauss and recoil - go look at the gauss weapon videos the military is firing now. There is virtually no recoil and heat is minimal or they'd be melting down on the pad at the rate of fire they have.

Machine guns - Sorry but I find it hard to believe these would even still exist in the 31st century. Now, I won't wanna hear again how "these are different" with pictures of them being as large as a VW Beetle. Well here is reality. The largest mechs are 100T. That isn't even 2'ce as big as 2 fully battle ready Abrams tanks. You are not gonna mount something that size that is able to to that much damage in multiples of 4 or more even on an assault mech. And that doesn't even touch thousands of rounds per ton. If you are carrying that much ammo per ton it certainly isn't going to easily take out an assault like they do now. And sorry to the little guys but a single light mech isn't supposed to be able to go toe to toe with an assault mech. This is why Jeeps don't go toe to toe with heavy battle tanks today. If you want more armor and firepower, drive a bigger mech. The plain fact is, like in all tank units, everything on the field is supposed to be support for the fatties. It's been that way since WW2.

So the plain fact is, quit trying to make all things equal on the field. They are not and were never meant to be. All you are doing is trying to fix problems that never should have been changed in the first place. Get realistic and quit trying to get everyone a participation trophy.

[The6thMessenger]

So i just read the linking of large lasers to gauss. Lol, **** no. ****'s messed up, it's already linked to PPCs.

The point of gauss, as stressed by PGI and co, is that it's a low heat weapon. Of course it's going to be abused like that. Unless of course C Gauss is made hotter.

Just reduce clan laser damage and be done with it. Or better yet, put heat on Gauss, it should be just doing increased damage/heat, as opposed of practically heatless.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 July 2018 - 11:42 PM.