845 replies to this topic

[Noguchi-san]

Tesunie, on 19 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

You missed the point...

What about IS mechs that have few/less to no health quirks? Are we now petitioning for all IS mechs to get X+ health boosts to all components? Now also, all IS mechs start to have to go for the high alpha race. A DPS mech already has issues most of the time, especially with faster land speeds (and here is why I'm against resynced engines to twist speeds), of "poke warrior online". So, we once again try to invalidate options by going with "bring this mech/build/alpha level or go home".

My 5J has two LLs and four ERMLs and moves 87 KPH (XL engine) with max JJs (I like mobile mechs with JJs). That's a 38 firepower at mid range with a cooling of 1.3. (Edit: I might also want to mention this has dual AMS as well for team support.)
My 5H has three LLs and 4 ERMLs and moves 69 74 KPH with max JJs. That is a 47 alpha at mid range, but only with a cooling of 1.1. So it runs very HOT. (Edit: Realized this mech was somehow under tonned, so I upgraded it's LFE up a few more notches.)
Meanwhile, my Hellbringer has two HLLs and four ERMLs with ECM and moves 81 KPH. That's 64 alpha at mid range, but it's cooling is 1.4.

So the Hellbringer is faster or almost the same speed, has ECM (but lacks JJs) and has better cooling on top of that. And it's also more durable over my 5J do to Clan XL.

So, your Grasshopper may have higher alpha, but what does it's cooling rate look like? I don't exactly like overheating after two alphas, and the Hellbringer can get away with it because it cools so quickly even when it does get hot. So, what trade offs are you taking to get that 60 alpha?

My heavy mech with the highest alpha for IS has 45.2 firepower on a Cataract, with the average of my stable (without LRMs) being closer to upper 30s lower 40s. (I shall admit now I don't own very many heavy mechs, mostly mediums.) Vs my Clan heavy mechs (I own more of them) which range from 36 to 64, with the average looking like lower 50s as a solid number.

On that note, the Clan heaviers still average higher alpah, with higher speeds, with better cooling...


But this is the issue with spreadsheet warrior. I might present a case, you bring up a counter case. I counter with an example, then you counter with another example... And we look at one piece of it because it's a complex issue and hard to look at all of it at once. Also, people tend to cherry pick the data, presenting "this one" that works, and leave out pieces that don't fit with their data.


Edit: This excludes other mechs, such as the Cataphract. My 1X has three LLs and two ERMLs for strong mid range power. It has cooling of 1.4 (Same as Hellbringer), moves 69 KPH (slower than Hellbringer), and has an alpha of 37 (lower than the Hellbringer). What about the Riflemen now? Or the Thunderbolt? How many individual mechs are we going to go through? How many "Well, I wouldn't take that mech/variant for X reasons, and instead take this (superior) choice and do this".

Maybe it's a little presumptuous to say it like that, but just get good! Your skill is your problem, not the Tech!

[Tesunie]

Noguchi-san, on 19 June 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

Maybe it's a little presumptuous to say it like that, but just get good! Your skill is your problem, not the Tech!

How many times should I do the math? How many mechs (particularly IS ones), that are considered horrible.

Shall we consider mechs such as the Hunchback and the Hunchback IIC instead of heavies? Nearly identical mech designs and loadouts, relatively speaking. Which do you consider better in the game?

Enforcer vs Nova/Huntsmen? I don't see many Enforcer's running around (with exclusion to the event). But I do still see Nova's and Huntsmen in larger numbers, even individually.

Marauder IICs and Mad Cat MKII vs Awesomes, Victors or even Kingcrabs?


Oh, and my personal stats have NOTHING to do with this discussion, unless you are relenting and saying you can't counter my point and so must attack me directly?

"get good" doesn't invalidate the fact that Clan mechs can move faster, get higher alphas and cool faster over IS mechs, all with typically longer ranges as well. So, what happens when a force has longer ranges and moves faster and can "shoot more often" because they run cooler?

As the comparison of Grasshoppers to the Hellbringer above, Hellbringer was faster, had a higher alpha AND had better cooling rate. The Grasshopper's additional health was eaten up basically by the Hellbringer's opening volley.


So, do you have a counter argument and evidence? Or you going to try and attack me directly again and admit again that you (personally) seem to have no counter argument and thus nothing to add?

[Tesunie]

PS: My skill seems to be fine. I typically score better damage (and everyone loves to show off their damage scores) with my Clan mechs compared to my IS mechs in return. It's typically easier to get higher damage scores within a short period of time with Clan mechs in contrast to their IS counterparts. More damage means better match scores, which means better payouts and more experience.

[Vxheous]

Tesunie, on 20 June 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

PS: My skill seems to be fine. I typically score better damage (and everyone loves to show off their damage scores) with my Clan mechs compared to my IS mechs in return. It's typically easier to get higher damage scores within a short period of time with Clan mechs in contrast to their IS counterparts. More damage means better match scores, which means better payouts and more experience.

Do you know what's actually strong right now, it's not laser vomit. Easiest way to rack up huge damage numbers right now is boated IS ballistics, and Clan LRMs.

[Tesunie]

Vxheous, on 20 June 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

Do you know what's actually strong right now, it's not laser vomit. Easiest way to rack up huge damage numbers right now is boated IS ballistics, and Clan LRMs.

And Clan ACs as well. Been having a little fun with a quad UAC2 Sunspider as of recently. Quickly racks up the damage fast. My Jagermech can also rack up a lot of damage quickly with it's LBx2s and 5s, with added crit chances once they lose their armor.

I will comment though, my Linebacker (Alpha 57) can quickly and easily get 200+ damage. Four solid alphas and I'm there, and it's fast enough to reposition so it's harder to pin down and press, and lets it run to cool when needed. And it's all HLLs and ERMLs.

The question becomes, DPS stare, or high alpha poke? Each can do well, given the right situation. Just got out of private lobby last night where it was 2v2. My opponent loved to bring dual H Gauss Fafnirs. I had very little that could actually compete with it. Best mech for the job was, surprisingly enough, my Jagermech for some reason. Once I stared at him, he could blat me but I out DPSed him in the end (and crited out the Gauss).

In reverse, in live matches, my Jagermech has had mixed reviews. Sometimes it deals massive amounts of damage. Other times, I'm down after a surprisingly few amounts of hits from some high alpha mechs. (Yes, I know. Positioning, focus fire, teamwork, etc.)

As a side note, I do like my LRMs but I've been trying to leave them out of this. It's easier to get a high alpha number with LRMs, but they are not as likely to deal that full damage to a mech each alpha. Their unpredictability is what makes me leave them out of this discussion.

[Kyrs]

First step would be to increase burn time on Clan H.L.L. to 1.75 and keep the dps average.
Reduce clan Gauss ammo to 9 per tons + skill
In Is Normal Gauss ammo to 12 per tons. + skill
Reduce torso pitch on MadCcat MK II

If your not in ERL battlemaster at long range you may have trouble with the the 98 alpha but if in mid to short range you can kill him with INSTA 60 pin point damage with your Annihilator 3ac10 / 3 snub nose ppc with dual cool shoot.
https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=566&l=046dbe47b3897b6643dc254a46219140cb97d264
But you have to aim first or wait for him to torso twist to get the component that you want to ANNIHILATED.

Edited by Kyrs, 20 June 2018 - 08:14 PM.

[Rusharn]

For the c Gauss the recoil would be the option I would choose.

As for the clan lasers, you might want to consider reducing the effectiveness of the Cool Shots for the clan. The Cool Shot consumable is one of the primary factors that off set the high heat of the Clan weapons, especially during high intensity engagements. All of my highest alpha clan laser vomit builds use Cool Shots, the hottest using double cool shots, allowing me to overcome the high heat. Removal of the Cool Shot, or reduction of it's effectiveness for clans would make the existing heat rating of Clan weapons more potent and require clan pilots have more trigger discipline, instead of just punching a cool shot to vent heat and allowing a second high intensity alpha strike.

Otherwise I would suggest increasing the burn duration on Clan lasers and increasing IS torso and turning speeds to allow IS mechs an easier time to spread the clan laser damage. This would increase the skill needed for the Clan pilots to get maximum damage. Lowering cool downs, heat, etc brings the weapons closer to the IS weapons style of play and I would prefer the clan and IS weapons retain their own personality.

[Chris Lowrey]

Hello everyone.

First off thank you for all of the responses so far. We have been continuously monitoring the discussion and will continue to do so. I wanted to poke in and say that we have not forgotten about this topic. We are working internally on our plan to move forward in regards to the concerns we have brought up for discussion here.

I do want to announce that we will be providing an update on this subject sometime next week. We apologize for the delay on this, but we wanted to allow as many voices as possible to weigh in on these matters, as well as internally get our game plan finalized before weighing in on any particular talking point.

Please feel free to continue the discussion, we are still actively monitoring the feedback and overall discussion points found here.

[Doomich]

I'm most concerned about lasers, because 1 click and you don't have any armor in CT and you're useless now.
May be..
More lasers shoot simultaneously = longer their duration? Like ghost duration (And this is quite logical!)
In my opinion this is a strong solution

And personally, I would forbid simultaneously firing more than one gauss rifle (forgive me Fafnir And yes, I adore Gauss!)
Sounds fair! You still have two gauss rifles and you are still dangerous, because the first one in recharging but you shoot from the second one.

Do you want strong alpha? Be ready to put in more efforts please!

[East Indy]

Good to see this still being monitored. I suppose the update may render any more comments moot, but — why not?

The single biggest issue with MWO, but to be fair, any MechWarrior game, is simultaneous fire that can be aimed in a location-based damage scheme. Very few diminishing returns for multiples of weapons exist, so the obvious best choice for almost all weapons is to combine as many weapons as possible and fire them together. Heat Scale is the only active mechanic for diminishing returns, and this thread is proof enough that Heat Scale isn't sufficient.

The good news is that MWO already has functioning mechanics to add diminishing returns to each weapon type.

• Heat Scale is removed and replaced with the below changes.
  
• Projectile ballistics recoil. Not recoil after a group shot, however: recoil after each weapon fires, enabled by fractional-second delays. In example, four weapons fired as a group walk the 'Mech's torso four times from the original heading. Larger caliber weapons recoil much more than smaller caliber weapons and high-RoF weapons. In groups, projectile ballistics always fire first to prevent alpha-stacking with lasers. This includes autocannons, Gauss, and would probably work best with PPCs, lore science notwithstanding.
  
• Missile weapons spread. High-volume volleys fired increase spread from each weapon accordingly. Spread is calculated per missile volume per 500-millisecond windows, with the effect linearly reduced as 500 milliseconds elapses between shots, so as to address macros and human error. In example, a gigantic volley of SRMs incurs no Heat Scale penalty as it would Live, but is spread sufficiently to reduce effectiveness. Spread is applied more linearly than Heat Scale. Any reduction to missile effectiveness can easily be treated by damage increases, since players are no longer dependent on large alphas to be as comparatively effective. This includes SRMs, Streak SRMs, LRMs, ATMs and MRMs.
  
• Laser weapons generate additional heat. Simply put, a more linear Heat Scale, in which two laser weapons fired simultaneously are always less heat-efficient than one. Like missiles, additional heat is calculated per damage per 500-millisecond window, with the effect linearly reduced as 500 milliseconds elapses between shots. Effects of smaller combinations are never debilitating, but players are encouraged to think of lasers less in terms of "how many before Heat Scale." Additionally, heat for individual weapons can likely be lowered. This includes standard lasers, ER lasers, pulse lasers, heavy lasers and microlasers.
  
• Machine guns increase the size of their cone of fire. Small numbers of machine guns will be very accurate; large numbers progressively less so. This addresses a constant issue of hardpoint inflation without penalizing the weapons themselves. This includes standard, light and heavy machine guns.

The major challenge to effective change is player culture of MWO. We're 6 years in, and many players enjoy the high-output, single-click sledgehammer gameplay that's reigned pretty much since hit-reg came together in 2013. Players are also vocal, and can leverage purchases as a protest vote. At the same time, 6 years is plenty of time to play one way, and many other players believe that current gameplay discourages player retention.

Edited by East Indy, 23 June 2018 - 12:16 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

The lasers are the key. If you let so many lasers fire simultanously, you get such alphas.

A slightly longer burn time? I am sorry but the fastest human reaction time is between 0,2 and 0,3 seconds - if he isn't distracted, then the mech needs to respond and turn etc. You still take at least 1/3 of the alpha and that only if the enemy cannot keep his aim true.

In short: not much will change.

[Naduk]

I believe the core issue is the pin point nature of the games current targeting systems.
This is the problem that allows 94 points of damage to land in a single location.

It does not matter what location that amount of damage hits, it’s a catastrophic hit,
it is the equivalent damage output of standing still in front of a dropship, this is a core failure of the games principle ideas.
What needs to be addressed is accuracy of weapons and the free gunnery skill currently given to pilots.
In the core rules for Battletech, each weapon hit is rolled for separately.
This means that a pilots skill is measured on their ability to land hits anywhere on a target.
NOT in the same location over and over again because the hits a randomly determined.
In tabletop, the best pilot in the universe will never land two successive alpha strikes in a single location on a target.

Battlemechs are the superior war machines because they can absorb vast quantities of damage over multiple locations,
unlike tanks and support units that have much fewer locations.
If you divide a 94 point alpha across all hit locations, its roughly 11points per location,
it is still a big hit for sure, but that illustrates just how effective accuracy is at unbalancing this games design.

This is actively being avoided in MWO because a pilot can deal catastrophic damage in
a single salvo all to a single hit location and instantly kill a mech in one or two hits.
This setup puts to waste all the complexities of the critical hit, armour and item health systems.

The battletech balance concept revolves around paying for power.
a bigger gun costs more in weight, heat, shot count, etc
a pilots gunnery is no different as a focus on gunnery will neglect other skills like piloting.

nowhere are MWO pilots paying for this advantage that would make them better pilots than the greatest legends of the entire battletech universe
Convergence was the original solution to this issue and it is no longer an option due to host state rewind

But we can have a skill based approximation of its effects
We instead turn to an Advanced Cone of Fire
I know a large portion of the community hates randomness
me too
but hear me out
Each weapon should have its own cone of fire
all of whom point towards the central reticules.
Meaning if you were completely stationary and fired an alpha, it would be almost what we currently have now.
Here is where that changes.

After each weapon is fired, its cone of fire increases
As the mech heats up, the cone of fire increases
If the mech is moving, the cone of fire increases
If the weapon is fired with other weapons or within a close period of time, the cone of fire increases

All COF increases would stack.
so moving, getting hot and firing a alpha for the 3^rd time in a row would cause extremely accuracy loss

Decreasing the cone would happen over time as long as you stop causing increases.
Similar to the heat mechanics, pilots would intuitively understand this,
just as in many other fps games where your reticule grows and shrinks, so would this, only we have two reticules that represent several underneath it.
This would provide large amounts of tools for future weapons balance as each weapon or even locations could be affected differently by recoil.

For example
The Clan Gauss rifle, could be the very accurate, high damage, low tonnage weapon it currently is,
but it could have its 3t advantage paid for in a High COF reduction rate.
Meaning your first shot of a dual Cgauss setup, will be very scary, the follow up shots if not given adequate time to reset,
will be much less frighting as the damage will be guaranteed to spread or possibly miss.

Arm mounted weapons could receive a reduction to COF impacts as
they have the additional actuators to help deal with recoil and targeting unlike torso mounted guns.

Any weapon fired as a group will have its base COF increased per weapon in the group (similar to heat spikes)
also any weapon fired within X time of a previous weapon will count as a group shot.
(this number should be variable to prevent avoidance of COF penalties via macros)

This will allow the tailoring of individual weapons for balance purposes.
Small lasers are a great example.
These light and short range weapons have enough problems without a accuracy debuff.
However we know in large numbers these weapons can be monstrous.
In that light their base/group COF penalties could be very slight but ramp up quickly in large amounts (ie 6+)
making them viable in small groups but still not monstrous in large groups and
increase their viability as backup weapons without turning them into the games default weapon.

This effect could flow steadily upwards and even carry unique effects for larger weapons.
For example, the heavy gauss or ac20 cause a great deal of recoil.
This could translate to a brief COF penalty to all weapons across a mech after the firing of such a weapon.
Akin to the current Heavy Gauss mechanic but with an actual accuracy loss across the mech for a brief time

Now to counter these effects we can employ tools and equipment already in game.
We have targeting computers that could provide various buffs or changes to COF behaviours.
This will allow players who simply must have pin point accuracy as much as possible a way to achieve it but at a cost.
The sustainability and fear factor of a dual ERppc/Gauss build goes right down in viability
if you require a 7ton targeting computer to keep your accuracy even close to today’s standard.

If you wish to see this concept in action simply load up HBS’s BATTLETECH and
compare builds (where possible) directly with pinpoint high damage builds within MWO
a simple example is a Dual AC20 mech
In both games, they are a terrifying config, and so they should be due to the dedicated weapon tonnage.

The MWO version will kill literally anything within a few seconds as each shot will land in the same location with some patience from the pilot,
even the super buffed atlas will not last long versus pinpoint dual AC20

This is in vast contrast to the Battletech build, where each shot is check separately and even if both hit,
its highly likely they will hit different locations each time,
this puts the mech fielding the Dual AC20 in just as much risk as its target as getting a quick kill is significantly harder to achieve
… tho not impossible just due to the nature of the setup

Under my proposed COF system many weapons would self-regulate as high heat weapons like
Clan heavy laser and ER Large Laser would automatically cause the mech to drop accuracy.

Pilots might think twice about bringing a boat full of them as the staggering amount of heat would
severely impact future accuracy of all weapons then people will be much more inclined to break up their weapon options

There will always be those pilots who find its acceptable to deal with the increased down time and wait
for the perfect chance to put a giant hole in someone with a single hit.
Those pilots should be rewarded for their patience and this concept would do exactly that,
but also provide an opening for their opponents close range and fight with out taking 94 point alphas to the CT 3 times on approach.

[Doomich]

East Indy, on 23 June 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

The single biggest issue with MWO, but to be fair, any MechWarrior game, is simultaneous fire that can be aimed in a location-based damage scheme.
...

Naduk, on 23 June 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

I believe the core issue is the pin point nature of the games current targeting systems.
This is the problem that allows 94 points of damage to land in a single location.

Reading both of your suggestions, I almost cry with happiness imagining how it will be in the game



It will be a true BattleTech MechWarrior!

Edited by Doomich, 24 June 2018 - 12:51 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

@Naduk: Exactly. In BT tabletop AC/20s were very dangerous because they delivered a lot of damage to one point. In MWO you take 4 ML and do basically the same.

[Jonathan8883]

This would be a major, major change to the gameplay, but it would also hold to lore, conventions for other games, and would add several more balancing factors. I would be willing to try this out on PTS, or even during a 3-day test period on the main server.

Naduk, on 23 June 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

I believe the core issue is the pin point nature of the games current targeting systems.
This is the problem that allows 94 points of damage to land in a single location.

It does not matter what location that amount of damage hits, it’s a catastrophic hit,
it is the equivalent damage output of standing still in front of a dropship, this is a core failure of the games principle ideas.
What needs to be addressed is accuracy of weapons and the free gunnery skill currently given to pilots.
In the core rules for Battletech, each weapon hit is rolled for separately.
This means that a pilots skill is measured on their ability to land hits anywhere on a target.
NOT in the same location over and over again because the hits a randomly determined.
In tabletop, the best pilot in the universe will never land two successive alpha strikes in a single location on a target.

Battlemechs are the superior war machines because they can absorb vast quantities of damage over multiple locations,
unlike tanks and support units that have much fewer locations.
If you divide a 94 point alpha across all hit locations, its roughly 11points per location,
it is still a big hit for sure, but that illustrates just how effective accuracy is at unbalancing this games design.

This is actively being avoided in MWO because a pilot can deal catastrophic damage in
a single salvo all to a single hit location and instantly kill a mech in one or two hits.
This setup puts to waste all the complexities of the critical hit, armour and item health systems.

The battletech balance concept revolves around paying for power.
a bigger gun costs more in weight, heat, shot count, etc
a pilots gunnery is no different as a focus on gunnery will neglect other skills like piloting.

nowhere are MWO pilots paying for this advantage that would make them better pilots than the greatest legends of the entire battletech universe
Convergence was the original solution to this issue and it is no longer an option due to host state rewind

But we can have a skill based approximation of its effects
We instead turn to an Advanced Cone of Fire
I know a large portion of the community hates randomness
me too
but hear me out
Each weapon should have its own cone of fire
all of whom point towards the central reticules.
Meaning if you were completely stationary and fired an alpha, it would be almost what we currently have now.
Here is where that changes.

After each weapon is fired, its cone of fire increases
As the mech heats up, the cone of fire increases
If the mech is moving, the cone of fire increases
If the weapon is fired with other weapons or within a close period of time, the cone of fire increases

All COF increases would stack.
so moving, getting hot and firing a alpha for the 3^rd time in a row would cause extremely accuracy loss

Decreasing the cone would happen over time as long as you stop causing increases.
Similar to the heat mechanics, pilots would intuitively understand this,
just as in many other fps games where your reticule grows and shrinks, so would this, only we have two reticules that represent several underneath it.
This would provide large amounts of tools for future weapons balance as each weapon or even locations could be affected differently by recoil.

For example
The Clan Gauss rifle, could be the very accurate, high damage, low tonnage weapon it currently is,
but it could have its 3t advantage paid for in a High COF reduction rate.
Meaning your first shot of a dual Cgauss setup, will be very scary, the follow up shots if not given adequate time to reset,
will be much less frighting as the damage will be guaranteed to spread or possibly miss.

Arm mounted weapons could receive a reduction to COF impacts as
they have the additional actuators to help deal with recoil and targeting unlike torso mounted guns.

Any weapon fired as a group will have its base COF increased per weapon in the group (similar to heat spikes)
also any weapon fired within X time of a previous weapon will count as a group shot.
(this number should be variable to prevent avoidance of COF penalties via macros)

This will allow the tailoring of individual weapons for balance purposes.
Small lasers are a great example.
These light and short range weapons have enough problems without a accuracy debuff.
However we know in large numbers these weapons can be monstrous.
In that light their base/group COF penalties could be very slight but ramp up quickly in large amounts (ie 6+)
making them viable in small groups but still not monstrous in large groups and
increase their viability as backup weapons without turning them into the games default weapon.

This effect could flow steadily upwards and even carry unique effects for larger weapons.
For example, the heavy gauss or ac20 cause a great deal of recoil.
This could translate to a brief COF penalty to all weapons across a mech after the firing of such a weapon.
Akin to the current Heavy Gauss mechanic but with an actual accuracy loss across the mech for a brief time

Now to counter these effects we can employ tools and equipment already in game.
We have targeting computers that could provide various buffs or changes to COF behaviours.
This will allow players who simply must have pin point accuracy as much as possible a way to achieve it but at a cost.
The sustainability and fear factor of a dual ERppc/Gauss build goes right down in viability
if you require a 7ton targeting computer to keep your accuracy even close to today’s standard.

If you wish to see this concept in action simply load up HBS’s BATTLETECH and
compare builds (where possible) directly with pinpoint high damage builds within MWO
a simple example is a Dual AC20 mech
In both games, they are a terrifying config, and so they should be due to the dedicated weapon tonnage.

The MWO version will kill literally anything within a few seconds as each shot will land in the same location with some patience from the pilot,
even the super buffed atlas will not last long versus pinpoint dual AC20

This is in vast contrast to the Battletech build, where each shot is check separately and even if both hit,
its highly likely they will hit different locations each time,
this puts the mech fielding the Dual AC20 in just as much risk as its target as getting a quick kill is significantly harder to achieve
… tho not impossible just due to the nature of the setup

Under my proposed COF system many weapons would self-regulate as high heat weapons like
Clan heavy laser and ER Large Laser would automatically cause the mech to drop accuracy.

Pilots might think twice about bringing a boat full of them as the staggering amount of heat would
severely impact future accuracy of all weapons then people will be much more inclined to break up their weapon options

There will always be those pilots who find its acceptable to deal with the increased down time and wait
for the perfect chance to put a giant hole in someone with a single hit.
Those pilots should be rewarded for their patience and this concept would do exactly that,
but also provide an opening for their opponents close range and fight with out taking 94 point alphas to the CT 3 times on approach.

[Sorain Ravenshaw]

Jonathan8883, on 24 June 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

This would be a major, major change to the gameplay, but it would also hold to lore, conventions for other games, and would add several more balancing factors. I would be willing to try this out on PTS, or even during a 3-day test period on the main server.

For what it's worth, I would like to see a well announced weekend to test that mechanical change. Of course I'd also like a 'Public Test Week' for the Community Feedback version and another week for the 'Developer Feedback' version.

Let people see the upsides and downsides to both sets of changes (not to mention the cone of fire idea) and get some large scale data on them to play with for decision making going forward. That will be the best for everyone.

Edited by Sorain Ravenshaw, 24 June 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Reno Blade]

While a CoF or some other convergence topics come up from time to time, I think the engine limits the possible changes too much.

Otherwise, we could have paralel reticules for torso mounted weapons and converging + swaying reticules for the arms like this:

[wolvhound]

Naduk, on 23 June 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

I believe the core issue is the pin point nature of the games current targeting systems.
This is the problem that allows 94 points of damage to land in a single location.

It does not matter what location that amount of damage hits, it’s a catastrophic hit,
it is the equivalent damage output of standing still in front of a dropship, this is a core failure of the games principle ideas.
What needs to be addressed is accuracy of weapons and the free gunnery skill currently given to pilots.
In the core rules for Battletech, each weapon hit is rolled for separately.
This means that a pilots skill is measured on their ability to land hits anywhere on a target.
NOT in the same location over and over again because the hits a randomly determined.
In tabletop, the best pilot in the universe will never land two successive alpha strikes in a single location on a target.

Battlemechs are the superior war machines because they can absorb vast quantities of damage over multiple locations,
unlike tanks and support units that have much fewer locations.
If you divide a 94 point alpha across all hit locations, its roughly 11points per location,
it is still a big hit for sure, but that illustrates just how effective accuracy is at unbalancing this games design.

This is actively being avoided in MWO because a pilot can deal catastrophic damage in
a single salvo all to a single hit location and instantly kill a mech in one or two hits.
This setup puts to waste all the complexities of the critical hit, armour and item health systems.

The battletech balance concept revolves around paying for power.
a bigger gun costs more in weight, heat, shot count, etc
a pilots gunnery is no different as a focus on gunnery will neglect other skills like piloting.

nowhere are MWO pilots paying for this advantage that would make them better pilots than the greatest legends of the entire battletech universe
Convergence was the original solution to this issue and it is no longer an option due to host state rewind

But we can have a skill based approximation of its effects
We instead turn to an Advanced Cone of Fire
I know a large portion of the community hates randomness
me too
but hear me out
Each weapon should have its own cone of fire
all of whom point towards the central reticules.
Meaning if you were completely stationary and fired an alpha, it would be almost what we currently have now.
Here is where that changes.

After each weapon is fired, its cone of fire increases
As the mech heats up, the cone of fire increases
If the mech is moving, the cone of fire increases
If the weapon is fired with other weapons or within a close period of time, the cone of fire increases

All COF increases would stack.
so moving, getting hot and firing a alpha for the 3^rd time in a row would cause extremely accuracy loss

Decreasing the cone would happen over time as long as you stop causing increases.
Similar to the heat mechanics, pilots would intuitively understand this,
just as in many other fps games where your reticule grows and shrinks, so would this, only we have two reticules that represent several underneath it.
This would provide large amounts of tools for future weapons balance as each weapon or even locations could be affected differently by recoil.

For example
The Clan Gauss rifle, could be the very accurate, high damage, low tonnage weapon it currently is,
but it could have its 3t advantage paid for in a High COF reduction rate.
Meaning your first shot of a dual Cgauss setup, will be very scary, the follow up shots if not given adequate time to reset,
will be much less frighting as the damage will be guaranteed to spread or possibly miss.

Arm mounted weapons could receive a reduction to COF impacts as
they have the additional actuators to help deal with recoil and targeting unlike torso mounted guns.

Any weapon fired as a group will have its base COF increased per weapon in the group (similar to heat spikes)
also any weapon fired within X time of a previous weapon will count as a group shot.
(this number should be variable to prevent avoidance of COF penalties via macros)

This will allow the tailoring of individual weapons for balance purposes.
Small lasers are a great example.
These light and short range weapons have enough problems without a accuracy debuff.
However we know in large numbers these weapons can be monstrous.
In that light their base/group COF penalties could be very slight but ramp up quickly in large amounts (ie 6+)
making them viable in small groups but still not monstrous in large groups and
increase their viability as backup weapons without turning them into the games default weapon.

This effect could flow steadily upwards and even carry unique effects for larger weapons.
For example, the heavy gauss or ac20 cause a great deal of recoil.
This could translate to a brief COF penalty to all weapons across a mech after the firing of such a weapon.
Akin to the current Heavy Gauss mechanic but with an actual accuracy loss across the mech for a brief time

Now to counter these effects we can employ tools and equipment already in game.
We have targeting computers that could provide various buffs or changes to COF behaviours.
This will allow players who simply must have pin point accuracy as much as possible a way to achieve it but at a cost.
The sustainability and fear factor of a dual ERppc/Gauss build goes right down in viability
if you require a 7ton targeting computer to keep your accuracy even close to today’s standard.

If you wish to see this concept in action simply load up HBS’s BATTLETECH and
compare builds (where possible) directly with pinpoint high damage builds within MWO
a simple example is a Dual AC20 mech
In both games, they are a terrifying config, and so they should be due to the dedicated weapon tonnage.

The MWO version will kill literally anything within a few seconds as each shot will land in the same location with some patience from the pilot,
even the super buffed atlas will not last long versus pinpoint dual AC20

This is in vast contrast to the Battletech build, where each shot is check separately and even if both hit,
its highly likely they will hit different locations each time,
this puts the mech fielding the Dual AC20 in just as much risk as its target as getting a quick kill is significantly harder to achieve
… tho not impossible just due to the nature of the setup

Under my proposed COF system many weapons would self-regulate as high heat weapons like
Clan heavy laser and ER Large Laser would automatically cause the mech to drop accuracy.

Pilots might think twice about bringing a boat full of them as the staggering amount of heat would
severely impact future accuracy of all weapons then people will be much more inclined to break up their weapon options

There will always be those pilots who find its acceptable to deal with the increased down time and wait
for the perfect chance to put a giant hole in someone with a single hit.
Those pilots should be rewarded for their patience and this concept would do exactly that,
but also provide an opening for their opponents close range and fight with out taking 94 point alphas to the CT 3 times on approach.

If they put this on a test server I'd be down.
Hell if it's the only thing they take from this it would be a massive improvement to the game

[CarloArmato]

A Cone Of Fire mechanic would be like ghost heat mechanic, but it would scramble with your aim rather than your heat, which is even more annoying due to the fact you can't control it.

Can we completely scramble ANY idea about adding anything random into the game? Randomness (especially when it interferes with core gameplay like aiming) punishes good and skillful players. If you face tank a 94 alpha strike direwolf (which has an optimal range of 450 meters with maxed range skills) I don't know what you should expect: you die horribly. If you torso twist or you move to spread out the damage, guess what, you survive and you have another ~6 seconds to shoot and hide.

Instead of decrease accuracy for every weapon, why not INCREASE accuracy for non pinpoint weapons, like SRMs, MRMs, LBXs etc.? Try to guess how much dangerous would it be a group of MRMs with a spread more similar to a SRM4 (non-artemis) or a group of clan LBX at longer ranges when a vomit laser build has to face you for a longer time? Given enough laser duration you can even hit twice or even three times the CT of the laser vomit.

If you don't like the idea to increase accuracy for "spreading" weapons, simply increase laser duration for EVERY laser in the game: the issue is not the fact I can 94 alpha strike you in the CT at ~450-600 meters, the issue is that you let me do it because you had to face me the whole time.

Now, I have this build (94 alpha strike direwolf) which is the only build I can think of that can manage to have that alpha strike even anywhere sustainable and you have one of the following builds.

• Do you have a fast light and I happen to be alone? Unless I pop you with those dual gausses, I die. I only have one to 2 shots before you get close enough and I doubt I will be able to hit you once you are below 80 meters and circling around me or backstabbing me the whole time. A piranha or anything that approaches from my back is a death sentence. Even if I'm not alone, you can still poke at my very huge and exposed side and the only way I can reliably deal damage is with my gausses.
  
• Do you have another vomit laser build? Well, you do not trade with a direwolf pointing specifically at you. You either fire first when I'm poking or you wait for me to fire at somebody else, then you backup your friend or whoever I've shot my alpha strike at. If I have to change aim from one cover to another, I'll still likely spread the damage once I start firing to my new target.
  
• Do you have a dakka build? I can apply more damage in a shorter time at 450 meters optimal range with max skills and still deal a good amount of damage at ~550 meters, but you will definitely win the DPS race if I don't torso twist / tank properly or if I get caught in the open. Did I cored your CT with a single strike? Then start torso twisting right before I'm firing my 2nd alpha strike and you will survive.
  
• Are you a LRM / ATM boat? Don't hold the lock, take the alpha first and then shoot. If you face tank, you take the whole alpha on your CT if you don't move or tank... But if anybody on your team does have a lock on me, then you can free trade on me the whole time while I have to look for that little ECM / stealth / NARC mech or for a single UAV that is maybe even out of reach. So, if you get a lock on me before I can even see you, I'll die. If I face you and you don't look away for the shame to tank, you die after 1 extremely very well placed strike or 2... But I have to reach and face you with a 48 km/h mech, while you can rely on any very fast light to deliver your damage before I even have a clue of where you are.

And I didn't even touched the deathstrike (which is way more scarier due to the fact it can actually poke) and AC2 dakka boats, which are still pinpoint with very good aiming and can out DPS you at range while also suppressing you / scrambling your aim.

Edited by CarloArmato, 25 June 2018 - 12:19 AM.

[MiZia]

Have to agree with you Carlo. Even more reading many of the posts and serching those people on Jarls.
Most that are concerned by those high alpha are at same time not really what i would call a good shot.