26 replies to this topic

[IIXxXII]

Scenario(nerd question here):

I've been using the free nova with one ER PPC mounted on the arm with another ER PPC mounted on the side torso. Normally I would put both in the side torsos as the mounts are a bit higher than arm mounts.

Lately I had a few cases where a light mech was running away from me in a straight line.

I alphad the light mech in its RRT/RCT/RLT without seeing penetration to core components the way one might expect.

I'm wondering if having weapons mounted in side torsos versus arms raises inaccuracy of convergence in a way which could cause both PPC hits on an alpha to hit different components. Say one PPC hits the RLT and the other hits the RCT.

With dual wielding is it more accurate and better for convergence to have both weapons mounted in the side torsos or have both in the arms? Is there a difference?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Things only converge on the target if you are aiming at them, if you are leading the target you are converging on a point very far away. This means the further your guns are from eachother the further the shots will land from each other if you are hitting a point before the convergence point.

Here's a picture I made last time this came up.

[El Bandito]

What the guy above said. Convergence is absolutely hilarious/terrible on the Night Star when leading a target.

[IIXxXII]

Solid explanation. Thanks!

[Kaeb Odellas]

They really ought to tie convergence to targeting.

[Prototelis]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 June 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

They really ought to tie convergence to targeting.

Why make it easier to one shot lights and fast mediums from range?

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prototelis, on 08 June 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

Why make it easier to one shot lights and fast mediums from range?

Tie it to target info gathering. Reduce detection range of lights and mediums.

[Bulletsponge0]

El Bandito, on 08 June 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

What the guy above said. Convergence is absolutely hilarious/terrible on the Night Star when leading a target.

they call that "Ebon Jag syndrome"

[Prototelis]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 June 2018 - 08:57 PM, said:

Tie it to target info gathering. Reduce detection range of lights and mediums.

That doesn't really answer the question, and would be just another game mechanic with little in-game explanation.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prototelis, on 09 June 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

That doesn't really answer the question, and would be just another game mechanic with little in-game explanation.

It does answer the question, in that making lights and mediums harder to target with sensors would make them harder to one-shot at long range if convergence is tied to sensors. It would make ECM more useful against all weapon types, and make TAG, NARC, active probes, and targeting computers more beneficial all weapon types, as well as making the sensor skill tree more useful beyond Radar Derp and Seismic.

And the lack of in-game explanation is an entirely separate problem from this. That is fixed by adding sensor and detection stats to the mechlab UI with tooltips explaining what that means. A conceptually very simple thing to add.

[Prototelis]

Waiting a few seconds for convergence is still making the shot easier.

Think about the question outside of the mechanics you are proposing.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prototelis, on 09 June 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

Waiting a few seconds for convergence is still making the shot easier.

Think about the question outside of the mechanics you are proposing.

How about this then:

Lights and mediums shouldn't be out in the open with direct LOS to the enemy long enough for enemy snipers to tag them repeatedly with long range weapons. If a light or medium pilot is doing this, he is making a mistake and should rightfully be punished. He should be moving erratically from cover to cover to prevent the enemy from accurately leading their targets. The slower mediums should should be escorting the heavier, slower mechs who will draw fire away from them by being bigger, easier, and more dangerous targets.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 09 June 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

Waiting a few seconds for convergence is still making the shot easier.

Think about the question outside of the mechanics you are proposing.

These so-called "a few seconds" is enough time for lights to get back into cover, more so in a convergence-on-lock system.

Edited by Mystere, 10 June 2018 - 05:20 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 08 June 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

Things only converge on the target if you are aiming at them, if you are leading the target you are converging on a point very far away. This means the further your guns are from eachother the further the shots will land from each other if you are hitting a point before the convergence point.

Here's a picture I made last time this came up.

I've thought about this a while. Assume you only have torso weapons, like one on left and one on right. Can they fully converge? Visually they seem to, but that doesn't make sense, they are fixed to torso right?

[yrrot]

The torso weapons converge still. Think of it as them having enough play to traverse slightly in their mounts. It doesn't fit the model, but it would play terribly if torso weapons didn't converge at all (but might balance out some builds...).

For completeness, the arms and torsos converge separately too. So wherever your arm reticle is aiming has no effect on torso convergence and vise versa.

[Prototelis]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 June 2018 - 12:20 AM, said:

How about this then:

Lights and mediums shouldn't be out in the open with direct LOS to the enemy long enough for enemy snipers to tag them repeatedly with long range weapons. If a light or medium pilot is doing this, he is making a mistake and should rightfully be punished. He should be moving erratically from cover to cover to prevent the enemy from accurately leading their targets. The slower mediums should should be escorting the heavier, slower mechs who will draw fire away from them by being bigger, easier, and more dangerous targets.

Oh yeah, you're totally right.

Trash lights should just hide the entire match.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Prototelis, on 11 June 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

Oh yeah, you're totally right.

Trash lights should just hide the entire match.

Not one for reading comprehension, are you?

Here. I'll break it down for you.

- Fast lights can run from cover to cover because they are fast hard to hit
- Slow lights travel next to bigger mechs because the enemy will shoot the big targets first.

Now was that so hard?

[Prototelis]

Oh yeah, I forgot a light mechs only other job is screening for other light mechs.

If you haven't guessed, I'm totally against anything that further nerfs the worst performing least played class in the game.

I suspect you don't have a problem nailing lights from max optimal gauss range, not sure why you're advocating making it even easier than it already is.

Edit: BTW, I think you're getting the wrong tone from my posts. Not once did I insult you. My bad if you're getting the wrong vibe.

Edited by Prototelis, 11 June 2018 - 12:02 PM.

[LordNothing]

way convergence is computed depends on a raycast to the target. the game has no way to know what you are trying to shoot at when you lead so raycast just continues until it hits something and convergence is set to that point, or infinity if it doesnt hit any geometry (say aiming out into the skybox, see tasteful infographic above).

the game does have a way to select targets though, the r key. then its just a matter of invoking the pythagorean theorem to compute the distance to the target and set the convergence distance. it would be a cool feature to have though it can get confusing, say having the wrong target locked could comically send your shots wide if the convergence point is much closer than the thing you actually want to shoot at. you could even compute the lead position and check to see if the raycast crosses near that position, say intersecting a sphere collider about that point in space (radius of that collider could be upgraded with target info gathering or some other skill). this could serve as a second check before setting the convergence, otherwise keep the shots parallel. ******* math, easy for me, hard for pgi.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 June 2018 - 01:21 PM.

[LordNothing]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 08 June 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

Things only converge on the target if you are aiming at them, if you are leading the target you are converging on a point very far away. This means the further your guns are from eachother the further the shots will land from each other if you are hitting a point before the convergence point.

Here's a picture I made last time this came up.

best infographic 2018. give that man a cookie!

Edited by LordNothing, 11 June 2018 - 01:16 PM.