65 replies to this topic

[Mighty Spike]

hm, dont know started to play today at 100 am berlin time and had it definitly more often as usual.And the matches where pure annoying horror. I was in and survived evry single lurmagedon from CB on til today but even with2 ams in my Laser grasshoper and the knowledge how to keep my head down and 40% radar depri it was bad today.. Uf wow the firrst poxitiv match in Sollaris city for today finally

[Tesunie]

Mighty Spike, on 16 January 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

hm, dont know started to play today at 100 am berlin time and had it definitly more often as usual.And the matches where pure annoying horror. I was in and survived evry single lurmagedon from CB on til today but even with2 ams in my Laser grasshoper and the knowledge how to keep my head down and 40% radar depri it was bad today.. Uf wow the firrst poxitiv match in Sollaris city for today finally

I think people are "checking out the changes to LRMs"... which hasn't gone onto the live servers...

I've noticed that whenever a PTS is announced, people tend to spam whatever is being checked on the PTS on the live servers... Since that announcement, I too have been seeing a little more of the LRM spam (and usually of the boated "can't defend myself if someone gets within the mnimum" kind of LRM boats...).

[Mighty Spike]

Tesunie, on 16 January 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

I think people are "checking out the changes to LRMs"... which hasn't gone onto the live servers...

I've noticed that whenever a PTS is announced, people tend to spam whatever is being checked on the PTS on the live servers... Since that announcement, I too have been seeing a little more of the LRM spam (and usually of the boated "can't defend myself if someone gets within the mnimum" kind of LRM boats...).

yea and people play on the PTS servers everything else but not that what is going to be tested. Same thing on the Clan alpha test. Peoplewas nning around with mg lights and guess what : lurms^^....

Edited by Mighty Spike, 16 January 2019 - 11:34 AM.

[Tesunie]

Mighty Spike, on 16 January 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:

yea and people play on the PTS servers everything else but not that what is going to be tested. Same thing on the Clan alpha test. Peoplewas nning around with mg lights and guess what : lurms^^....

Some people "have to win no matter what", even if it's not going to matter to them (or their stats). That's what I tend to find.

However, in some cases it can fall into "how well to the changes to X weapon compare to Y weapon's base". But, in the test for LRMs... that shouldn't be much of a concern...

[Void Angel]

People will also use the PTS as an opportunity to test radical departures from their normal builds and playing practices.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2019 - 09:43 PM, said:

People will also use the PTS as an opportunity to test radical departures from their normal builds and playing practices.

Pft. I do that on the live servers. Where is the fun if you don't experiment a little?

[Oberst Wilhelm Klink]

azmodanb, on 18 June 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Polar ******* Highlands

Still worst map ever.

[Tesunie]

Oberst Wilhelm Klink, on 19 February 2019 - 07:08 AM, said:

Still worst map ever.

You mean "still worst map ever" in you opinion.

Some of us have no issue with the map and like the difference it brings compared to other maps.

I mean, I could argue that Crimson Straights is the worst map ever due to it's lopsided design that always favors one team over the other...

Or old Tera Therma, which had the congested center with could cause whole teams to get stuck on each other if the lead person stopped in the narrow entrances during a push (but was actually a fun map, especially if people fought outside the center, and even then it was still different and interesting even if you fought in the center).

Or, what about the ever popular River City being "worst map ever" because of it's stale gameplay (go to the citadel, beat each other with clubs till one side drops) that also favors one side over the other (especially the older version before the new ramps where added).

So, I'd beg to differ when calling any map "worst map ever".

[Void Angel]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 02 March 2019 - 09:55 AM.
unconstructive, replies removed

[ImperialKnight]

Tesunie, on 19 February 2019 - 08:25 AM, said:

You mean "still worst map ever" in you opinion.

Some of us have no issue with the map and like the difference it brings compared to other maps.

I mean, I could argue that Crimson Straights is the worst map ever due to it's lopsided design that always favors one team over the other...

Or old Tera Therma, which had the congested center with could cause whole teams to get stuck on each other if the lead person stopped in the narrow entrances during a push (but was actually a fun map, especially if people fought outside the center, and even then it was still different and interesting even if you fought in the center).

Or, what about the ever popular River City being "worst map ever" because of it's stale gameplay (go to the citadel, beat each other with clubs till one side drops) that also favors one side over the other (especially the older version before the new ramps where added).

So, I'd beg to differ when calling any map "worst map ever".

EVERY MAP is about beating each other with clubs until one side drops. Except on Polar, you don't know where you are, you don't know where you're going, cause EVERYWHERE is the same. And you have no hard cover, so everyone playing LRM boats pick it. And those not running LRMs or ECM, just hopes their team have at least some mechs with ECM on it.

So yes, it is THE worst map...except maybe Alpine Peaks. but at least that one gives you some scenery

[Tesunie]

ImperialKnight, on 23 February 2019 - 08:08 AM, said:

EVERY MAP is about beating each other with clubs until one side drops. Except on Polar, you don't know where you are, you don't know where you're going, cause EVERYWHERE is the same. And you have no hard cover, so everyone playing LRM boats pick it. And those not running LRMs or ECM, just hopes their team have at least some mechs with ECM on it.

So yes, it is THE worst map...except maybe Alpine Peaks. but at least that one gives you some scenery

Except for Therra Therma. Except for Alpine Peeks. Except for River City. Except for Frozen City. Except for...

Just because you do not like the map does not mean it is the worst map. That is my point here.


As far as the expression on "beating each other with clubs" is referring to the more route nature of some maps that lead strongly to mid to close range (clubbing range) by the natural paths players choose to navigate around the map with.

For Polar Highlands... There is plenty of scenery and plenty of terrain if you know how to use the map. Where as most times people like to say and think "the high ground is good", for Polar the high ground typically just plasters your silhouette for anyone with long range to shoot at. With Polar you need to utilize the low ground to get into position unseen, and crest hills carefully. It's a good map for higher risk ambushes. (Which is already different from other maps, by your own admission, which means it's a map we NEED to have if we want variety.)

To give a comparison:
- HPG: Go to center point, try to dominate that high center area, then flush... I mean spin counter clockwise most times to chase the enemy around the center.
- River City: Go to the center cathedral, move your way counter clockwise behind it (or get to the statue park of you spawn on that side), and then intercept the enemy as they try to close combat their way through the park and your ranks.
- Tourmaline: Go to central feature of the dropship ring/fortress. Then, spin counter clockwise to get behind said fortress or through said ring into the enemy.
- Caustic: Go to the central feature, go around the feature in a counter clockwise motion. Utilize mid to short range weapons to blast your foes to pieces. Avoid the exact center, as it's hot and no one will support you if you go in there...
- Canyon: Go to the central formation. Spin counter clockwise around the feature using the ramps to get up. Blast the enemy at short range. Optional: May set up limited number of snipers just to the side of the feature, so that enemy fast mechs can have some solo targets to chew on.
- Frozen City: This map actually has three different tactics. Either you go to the central feature and spin counter clockwise again with snipers set up on each hillside, or you go into the upper city limits and fight there, or you go to the crashed dropship and fight there, each also typically moving in counter clockwise motions at mid to close range, with maybe some actual long range elements able to be used early on.
- Forest: Go to the central feature, the rock bridge/flat raised area. Move around it in a counter clockwise motion, utilizing close range elements, but avoid "the Valley of Death" just to the other side of the rock bridge. Might have some long range engagements from the lake or early match. Said lake elements typically get eaten by the opposing side's fast mechs.


Even Polar has a "map meta" for it. Go to H9 to I10, stand on hills and stare at each other till the long range elements kill enough of one side. Complain about how useless your brawler build is as you intentionally stood at long range on a hill motionless... (Rather than sneaking along the lower side of the hill, looping around, and getting in close on the enemy's side or even rear completely undetected. But... why do that? I mean, HIGH GROUND people... It's all powerful.)

PS: Sniper weapons actually tend to perform better on Polar than LRMs do, depending upon if you invested in Radar Deprivation, use what cover there actually is, and don't let enemy NARC units get close (and those that are good will use the low ground to get close enough to make your day a bad one, and most people wont see it coming because "high ground").
This is NOT saying LRMs are bad on Polar, but making the notation that Sniper weapons can react faster and at actual long ranges. Get caught by LRMs in their mid (600ish m) range and that leads to trouble. Get a NARC on you on Polar, and the LRMs will be relentless.

AKA: Polar is actually different from basically every other map in the game. It's a map type we NEED in this game for variety. We need more maps similar to it actually to better flush out variable tactics. Rather than "Move counter clockwise, get in close, brawl them to death", which is what many of our current maps are. You know, what all of them basically are except for... Polar Highlands and Alpine Peeks, the two "worst maps" in your opinion.

[Void Angel]

Battletech has always been about attrition - it's in the way the game works, and is hardly unique to MWO. This doesn't mean that there are no tactics, which always seems to be the critique when people talk about the subject on the MWO forums. Flanking, ambushes, and all that are still useful to various degrees based on the game you're playing - but they're useful in giving you an edge in attrition. With all that being said, there's a reason that stereotyped strategies for just about every map exist: PGI's map design for most maps revolves around several deliberate tactical options with intended drawbacks and advantages for each, and the terrain tends to funnel players toward those options.

Polar Highlands is different, demonstrably so. You have defilading cover all over the place, and plenty of covered options to get anyplace you want to go on the map. Almost all the cover consists of low, rolling snowdrifts, meaning that if you maneuver to defeat the enemy's cover, there is often no other cover handy for them to retreat into. But since nearly all other maps have tons of high cover available - particularly some of the most popular (looking at you Canyon Network!) - many players try to apply the same tired, formulaic strategies they use in all their favorite maps. And they fail, and fail, and fail, because the map doesn't fit their formula. Pebkac. Like the LRM complainers who refuse to install AMS, most of the players I've seen come raging onto this thread have been simply refusing to play the map they've been given. It's like they're waving snowshoes around and saying, "I brought all these short-ranged weapons, and all they gave me was no cover and this stupid club!" The map is not bad because you don't understand it. Learn to use the snowshoes. Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

---

I do have to disagree on a minor point, though, Tesunie - Viridian Bog was actually a precursor to Polar Highlands, and you can see it in the maps' designs. Viridian consists of a whole bunch of covered, roughly circular, high points with a lot of obscuring greenery in between - plus the stream to provide another tactical dimension, particularly for fast 'mechs. And each major cover object has another cover object on at least one side that will allow an enemy to peek out and achieve enfilading fire against campers. So the map rewards intelligent movement; it doesn't really matter which way you go that I can recall, but if one team camps and the other team moves, the moving team usually wins. Compare this with Polar Highlands' even stronger support of maneuver warfare (and discouragement to camping, which is why so many people hate it,) and you can see how a lot of the design elements likely developed.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 February 2019 - 12:17 PM.

[Vanguard319]

Welcome to the tyranny of the majority. Not too fun is it?
In all seriousness though, letting the players vote on what map and mode they want instead of keeping it randomized was a mistake. People will always vote for the map and mode they believe they have the greatest advantage on. They will never vote for Terra Therma when they are running a high-heat loadout for example, because they will be forced to limit their fire to keep themselves from melting, and thus limit thier dps, putting them and their team at a disadvantage.

[Tesunie]

Vanguard319, on 24 February 2019 - 12:51 PM, said:

Welcome to the tyranny of the majority. Not too fun is it?
In all seriousness though, letting the players vote on what map and mode they want instead of keeping it randomized was a mistake. People will always vote for the map and mode they believe they have the greatest advantage on. They will never vote for Terra Therma when they are running a high-heat loadout for example, because they will be forced to limit their fire to keep themselves from melting, and thus limit thier dps, putting them and their team at a disadvantage.

I agree that I'd prefer to go back to the days of completely randomized maps and modes. You actually saw all the maps back then, rather than always the same set of maps with as skirmish like game modes as possible...

[Void Angel]

I think I'd try a smaller set of voting options (one of two maps, for example) first - but I am so very tired of Canyon Network. That's the map that gave me insight into the Drunken Hillbilly school of BattleMech combat...

[R3d4ct3d]

worst map ever!

[MW Waldorf Statler]

a good soldier can tactically fight on any terrain and use it to his advantage, a bad one will fail even on a football field. Many fail even with the Mech equipment, because they can not fight at higher distances without LRMs due to their tunnel view and lack of tactical flexibility...How many fired of the same Targets as his Mates ? or select the dangerous Target as Primary Target and ignored the weaponless red Target left side ? the most plays Unreal T. with Mechs and without each tactical Sense.

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 28 February 2019 - 09:17 PM.

[Zoolder]

What annoys me about this silly map is that it's the only map I find I can't deal with LRMs. Just not enough Terrain. This would be okay if my team would every want to actually try and push and focus targets when the other team is LRMing us to death, but they just sit behind a hill and die to LRMs and never push

[Void Angel]

Yeah, that's a problem a lot of us have brought up about the map - even those who like it. The lack of high cover capable of defeating LRMs means there are some cases where you just get stomped without much counterplay. Like you said, though, a lot of time this is an operator headspace and timing issue where players insist that the only way to deal with LRMs is to hide from them behind static cover - and that's not really the fault of the map.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Of course, if you have a team of incompetent players, you will die with them ... on every map, when everyone decides to collect on HPG down in the basement and then from the outside to do the focus fire from outside instead of the same To conquer the highest point to dominate the map, it is usually bad ... Teams that do not act aggressively have lost, as in the past on River City when the players crouched against the wall in front of the citadel so that just hit the other and one after the other, take off the top and the flanks instead of venturing together and sharing the armor