58 replies to this topic

[Cabanaboy]

Seriously, load the Dropships with very strong *limited range* firepower. Just was in a match where all the enemy did was sidestep the mission and set all their assault mechs down in the spawn and picked off people 1 by 1. Effective? yes. ********? Yes. Ruins gameplay.

Was also my first FP match in a few months, having quit FP because of stupidity like this. FYI was CSPS who did this.

Edited by Cabanaboy, 19 June 2018 - 01:01 PM.

[S O L A I S]

Oh boy.

This has been brought up and dealt with a million times on here already. If you are being spawn camped as we all have, you and your team are at fault...or likely lack of team that is.

Already have players who stay in the drop and try and lurm from there, so no, we absolutely can't make dropships even more powerful and encourage more players hiding in drop zones.

[Xannatharr]

Cabanaboy, on 19 June 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

Just was in a match where all the enemy did was sidestep the mission and set all their assault mechs down in the spawn and picked off people 1 by 1.

What game mode was it? And why were they able to get to your Drop Zones without having to fight you?

Xann

[Cabanaboy]

S O L A I S, on 19 June 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

Oh boy.

This has been brought up and dealt with a million times on here already. If you are being spawn camped as we all have, you and your team are at fault...or likely lack of team that is.

Already have players who stay in the drop and try and lurm from there, so no, we absolutely can't make dropships even more powerful and encourage more players hiding in drop zones.

Then expect FP to never grow. I love the idea of FP, but if I NEED to drop in 12 mans just to not get roflstomped with BS tactics like that, then you'll just keep playing the same few groups over and over and it won't grow. Atleast LRM can be countered by AMS and ECM.... Spawn camping can be countered by what, splitting forces or giving the main objective up?

Xannatharr, on 19 June 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

What game mode was it? And why were they able to get to your Drop Zones without having to fight you?

Xann

FP and their entire group rushed and camped it. Again, give up main objective or split group and be 50% weaker? versus AMS and ECM countering LRM *****....

[Bishop Six]

There is no guarantee that every match you do is about equal forces on both sides.

Sometimes you get hunted down painfully, sometimes you are the hunter.

There are options for you to increase the possibility to be the hunter.

Edited by Bishop Six, 19 June 2018 - 01:10 PM.

[Xannatharr]

Right.. I know it was a Faction match, but what was the game mode? Incursion? Conquest? Assault?

And you don't have to be in a 12-man to drop successfully, but the 12 people that end up in the drop together have to work together.

You don't have to split your force, if they ALL go to your DZ then you might consider having your team ALL go to clear them out, or you could just go to THEIR DZ if you get a kill first.

You're not helpless in that situation and I don't think CSPS is a bunch of villains for making that move.

[Cabanaboy]

1. It was assault
2. We were together, trying to counter the push. First few got picked off, (me included) and they rushed up the right side into our spawn. The other side of the spawn is only accessible by jumpjets, but the side they rushed had a dirt ramp. Even a 12 man would be caught out if it wasn't actively looking for that particular move.
3. A split force would have been run over by a 12 man Clan marauder assault team, as this was. Again, unless all 12 sat directly in this path, even a great group like KCOM could have been caught out losing a few guys to spawn camping.


Matching 6+ man groups takes awhile. Obviously they aren't very common, since dedicated groups pitted against pubbies is common, so to blame someone for wanting to drop casually and STILL enjoy an FP match is a great reason why noobs give up on FP. I've been playing MWO since the second day of open beta. I think FP is broken because of things like this that breaks the gamesmanship and enjoyable play that could be FP. You can't expect a community to grow if stuff like this is common and condoned.

Edited by Cabanaboy, 19 June 2018 - 01:21 PM.

[Xannatharr]

Thanks for the complete answer, that helps me understand.

From what you are saying it sounds like you think that even a good team would have struggled to counter their move, right? Rather than say.... going and jumping on their base and making them leave your spawn you did.. what? You let their move dictate the outcome of the game.


I get it, if you were facing a large CSPS group then you might have been in line for a loss almost no matter what. But they made a move that your team couldn't, or wouldn't counter. That's not their fault, and the answer isn't to put more lethal armament on dropships and encourage bad players to hide in their DZ.

The best course of action would be to come on here and say "Nice move CSPS you got us with that one". Or better yet, in my opinion,not to post at all.

I'm sorry you had a bad game, but of all the flaws in MWO Game Design, dropship armament being too weak isn't one of them.

Good luck,

Xann

Edited by Xannatharr, 19 June 2018 - 01:27 PM.

[Bishop Six]

Cabanaboy, on 19 June 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

Matching 6+ man groups takes awhile. Obviously they aren't very common, since dedicated groups pitted against pubbies is common, so to blame someone for wanting to drop casually and STILL enjoy an FP match is a great reason why noobs give up on FP. I've been playing MWO since the second day of open beta. I think FP is broken because of things like this that breaks the gamesmanship and enjoyable play that could be FP. You can't expect a community to grow if stuff like this is common and condoned.

No one is blaming you here.

We are trying to help.

[justcallme A S H]

[redacted]

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 08 August 2018 - 11:22 AM.
unconstructive

[Eisenhorne]

You don't have to be a 100% dedicated member of a group to join a group to do FP, btw. Just get Teamspeak, look up some public servers, and hop around them looking if anyone is in a group of 8+, or in a room with the label "Faction Play" or "FP", and ask if they have an open spot.

[S O L A I S]

Cabanaboy, on 19 June 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

Then expect FP to never grow. I love the idea of FP, but if I NEED to drop in 12 mans just to not get roflstomped with BS tactics like that, then you'll just keep playing the same few groups over and over and it won't grow. Atleast LRM can be countered by AMS and ECM.... Spawn camping can be countered by what, splitting forces or giving the main objective up?



FP and their entire group rushed and camped it. Again, give up main objective or split group and be 50% weaker? versus AMS and ECM countering LRM *****....

Right now there is already an influx of new players pugging and having no idea what is going on. At this stage in the game no one is expecting any real growth, and truthfully playing the same groups repeatedly is much more desirable than stomping new players refusing to do what it takes to win or be successful in the mode.

If you want to just drop solo and derp around there is quick play for that. If you are unwilling to adapt to the conditions in CW the answer is not to make it easier for you, the answer is go back to quick play where you don't have to worry about the need to group up.

[Cabanaboy]

justcallme A S H, on 19 June 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

So you let a bunch of LRM boaters, who are average at best, spawn camp you?

There was no saving you...

Nope. Read again. LRM comment was only in regards to the counter complaint of adding firepower to the dropship and allowing LRM noobs to be protected in FP. Countered by ECM and AMS.


How about add a mechanic where if 4 or more of the enemy mechs sit inside your spawn at any time, penalties for quitting before you go through your drop deck are removed? When players drop and give useless wins, maybe the mechanic will break FP so badly even the dedicated teams will actually care to change it. of course I'm sure troll teams will take advantage of that mechanic too for free wins

Anyways, I'm out. I'll just QP until MW5 comes out I guess.

Edited by Cabanaboy, 19 June 2018 - 02:29 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

You don't understand what I mean by that comment, others around here will.

Either way - get a team for a team mode. No more simple or difficult than that.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 June 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[50 50]

Been a bunch of ideas thrown around over the years but nothing done.

Well, not entirely true, the maps were changed in some instances, drop zones moved, walls put in.

But that wasn't to stop spawn camping, only make it a little harder... though some might argue that the walls actually made it easier.

So there have been plenty of discussions on:

• Changing the dropship loadouts
  
• Longtomming the landing site before sending in the drop ship
  
• Putting turrets in
  
• Forcefields
  
• etc

Most of them aimed at making the dropzones a safe zone.

The counter argument to that is players then refuse to leave their drop zones which tends to compound the problem as the enemy comes looking for you and it actually has the opposite effect of encouraging spawn camping.

Ironically, as soon as the other team decides to ignore the drop zones and go straight for the objectives we see threads complaining about people 'base rushing' or zerg tactics and not stopping to fight so you might understand the frustration that occurs because it seems we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
(We being the player base overall)

Conquest mode is about the only mode that works successfully because it has multiple objectives and a win condition that means something.

There was some discussion prior to Solaris about reviewing the objectives in the various modes but who knows what that might mean and we haven't heard anything since but discussion on the modes themselves is not what you are talking about here.

Personally, I think there is one of two solutions:

OPTION 1
Make the dropzones an objective
We have a variety of capture mechanics in the game, the suggestion here is to turn the drop zones into an area that can be captured.
This has multiple effects.

• Should a team be successful in pushing (let's go with that description) their opponent back to their drop zone, then they can be successfully rewarded by capturing the dropzone and preventing that lance from being reinforced.
  ie. The dropship stops turning up there.
  
• 2. The lance who has their dropzone contested needs to get the area cleared of enemy mechs before they can receive reinforcements meaning they are not thrown to the lions with a new mech because the dropship pilot is too dumb to know when it's a bad idea. A small side effect of this is encouraging team mates to help free a dropzone that is under siege for which there could also be a reward.
  ie. Fight to protect the zone or lose it.

To combine with this we need to be able to select drop zones. It's possible at the moment but really clunky and merely shifts another player into the contested drop zone. There was some discussion on getting this feature added properly to the game but there was some problem with redirecting the dropships to the alternate locations, flight paths and collisions or some such.(Why can't some locations have lifts?)

I would also suggest that the placement of the dropzones would need to be looked at so they are not right next door to each other. It would also be nice to see the dropships equipped with their default loadout from the TRO as well.

More than that, it opens up the possibility for a rolling battle where we can try and control the map, seize new locations to mount our attacks from and really make the whole thing a bit more dynamic.

OPTION 2
Change the way we use the drop decks and remove the multiple drops into a single match.
We only have spawn camping because we can respawn.
Face it.
It's not a problem in Quick Play.
So the alternative might be to use the drop decks differently and have them span over multiple matches as a resource we have to manage and prepare a bit differently.
This immediately resolves the spawn camping issue but requires a big rethink/redesign of Faction Play.
Not necessarily a bad thing but it would really change the way the games play and would mean that the individual matches essentially play out the same as they do in Quick Play.
So, that's bad from the perspective of having longer games and where it can be fun to have repeated drops into the same battle.

On the plus side:

• It would make the transition from Quick Play to Faction Play more streamlined making it a little easier for new players.
  
• It also means that any map or mode that we might get added to the game can go straight into QP and FP which streamlines development work.
  
• This approach could also mean that we combine the QP Group Queue with FP Invasion as well as incorporate Scouting and bring three queues into one consolidating the player base and therefore improve wait times.
  
• With a complete revamp it might be able to work across the three servers.
  
• The 'Faction Play' part of the game is then in the pre and post match where we could get a number of different features added to add depth and immersion.

EDIT: Curse this editor.

Edited by 50 50, 19 June 2018 - 06:19 PM.

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 19 June 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

So you let a bunch of LRM boaters, who are average at best, spawn camp you?

There was no saving you...

[Omniseed]

Cabanaboy, on 19 June 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

Seriously, load the Dropships with very strong *limited range* firepower. Just was in a match where all the enemy did was sidestep the mission and set all their assault mechs down in the spawn and picked off people 1 by 1. Effective? yes. ********? Yes. Ruins gameplay.

Was also my first FP match in a few months, having quit FP because of stupidity like this. FYI was CSPS who did this.

That match was hot, you have no idea how painfully swollen I was by the end of it.

Xannatharr, on 19 June 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

Thanks for the complete answer, that helps me understand.

From what you are saying it sounds like you think that even a good team would have struggled to counter their move, right? Rather than say.... going and jumping on their base and making them leave your spawn you did.. what? You let their move dictate the outcome of the game.


I get it, if you were facing a large CSPS group then you might have been in line for a loss almost no matter what. But they made a move that your team couldn't, or wouldn't counter. That's not their fault, and the answer isn't to put more lethal armament on dropships and encourage bad players to hide in their DZ.

The best course of action would be to come on here and say "Nice move CSPS you got us with that one". Or better yet, in my opinion,not to post at all.

I'm sorry you had a bad game, but of all the flaws in MWO Game Design, dropship armament being too weak isn't one of them.

Good luck,

Xann

It was Invasion actually, Siege Defense, on Hellebore. We were a mixed group with some pilots we have just started playing with, far from undefeatable.

Edit to add- OP was defending.

Edited by Omniseed, 20 June 2018 - 10:52 AM.

[LordNothing]

not this again. people like you are the reason i cant exit the drop zone without taking leg damage. also the reason i have to play mech maze online before playing mechwarrior. if you hide in the drop zone you deserve to get farmed.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 June 2018 - 09:00 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Cabanaboy, on 19 June 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

Then expect FP to never grow. I love the idea of FP, but if I NEED to drop in 12 mans just to not get roflstomped with BS tactics like that, then you'll just keep playing the same few groups over and over and it won't grow. Atleast LRM can be countered by AMS and ECM.... Spawn camping can be countered by what, splitting forces or giving the main objective up?



FP and their entire group rushed and camped it. Again, give up main objective or split group and be 50% weaker? versus AMS and ECM countering LRM *****....

Spawn camping happens because you didn't move up. It's simple math - most Clan mechs go about 23 meters/second, at full speed in a straight line. Your DZ is about 2 k/m away from the other teams DZ. You should be hitting the ground at a run and engaging the enemy about 1km from your DZ. Then, if you get wiped on wave 1, you have plenty of time to gather and coordinate for the 2nd wave to finish the enemy and then move up again.

However when your team is very slow out of the DZ, shuffling to see who can be in the back, moves up about 200-300m and then hides and waits then essentially you've ensured that the fight is going to happen pretty much already within shooting range of your spawn point. So the enemy kills you and then walks for a few seconds and is shooting at your DZ. If the other team is getting into your DZ before you even drop it means you were fighting too close to your own DZ.

Getting spawn camped is frustrating. We've all had it happen to us when we got totally overrun or made poor positioning choices. However spawn camping isn't a byproduct of team skill imbalance but a byproduct of poor choices in positioning.

Move up. You'll be fine.

[Yondu Udonta]

Another irrelevant topic brought up by an irrelevant member of the FP community. You don't even know what mode you are playing, nor the map, which puts you in no position to comment about the flaws of FP. Play in a group FP and you realize the only reason why people get DZ camped is because of their incompetency. And how are CSPS not going for the objective? They are defending, so their job is to wipe out the attackers, which they did just fine.