148 replies to this topic

[TechChris]

Oh man........

I needed a good laugh, saw the title of this post and was like "Now there's some ridiculous **** that's sure to entertain", and by-golly, OP did not disappoint. This whole thread was a hilariously good read. TY everyone who posted! Honestly, Thank you!

Carchemish, on 21 June 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yyyeah...when the Piranhas get nerfed into normalcy, I'll stop using my streak crow. Till then, too bad. Tired of regularly seeing 800+ damage on those stupidly overpowered things.

Amen! I'll feel bad about using streaks when there's a MEANINGFUL change to MGs, not the token slap on the wrist they got a few patches ago.
Not to mention the "Quasi- Nerf" to streaks a few patches ago that PGI tried to pass off as an "Improvement" where they "Improved" there "bone" targeting choices so they would work similar against all mech types. IMO, just made em worse against anything sub 50 tons, in trade for a negligible improvement against anything 50 tons plus.

[dario03]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

I will use this example again because you will relate. Do you think Magic Pain Glove is easy to kill with direct fire? Most who have played against him, even those who are good shots will not land 100% on him. Actually even with streaks the guy is tough to kill in a light.

Streaks are not the highest skill weapon granted but it is an effective one. There are also really solid counters. Ask ISMO what they do to completely negate streaks in CW.

How does that justify making streaks an anti light weapon?

Some players are good in lights therefore we should make an auto-aim, high alpha weapon, that gets artemis benefit for no weight/crit so the people that can't hit the supposed to be hard to hit mech 100% of the time can hard counter them with little effort...
I'm sure the guy dies to direct fire just fine, like all lights.

[Y E O N N E]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

Do you think Magic Pain Glove is easy to kill with direct fire?

Yes. But Magic is also smart enough to only engage when he is reasonably certain he has an advantage, so your perception is skewed.

Ergo, your streaks are probably not all that effective on him, either, as he's going to kill your team out from under you and then kill you, unless his own team lets him down.

Note: I think streaks (and any lock-on weapon) are annoying skill-free bullsh*t and people who use them unironically are irredeemable scum, but I do not necessarily share the OP's sentiment. I've been successfully Streaked exactly zero times since the Flea dropped and not for lack of the enemy trying. They are reasonably avoidable and nearly useless against anything heavier than 50-55 tons. They are salt-inducing when they get you, but most of them die horrible, embarassing deaths, as well they deserve.

[S O L A I S]

dario03, on 21 June 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

How does that justify making streaks an anti light weapon?

Some players are good in lights therefore we should make an auto-aim, high alpha weapon, that gets artemis benefit for no weight/crit so the people that can't hit the supposed to be hard to hit mech 100% of the time can hard counter them with little effort...
I'm sure the guy dies to direct fire just fine, like all lights.

It is justified because it is a counter. The game already has some really frustrating mechanics such as mechs not being able to look down to shoot lights.

So it's also frustrating when a no skill light pilot (ie the majority of them running around) can run straight into a mech and facehug him to death with worrying about them being able to shoot back. So we can knock of the no skill argument as the vast majority of this game is played no skill to begin with.

PGI also just recently made streak go after side torsos more often and fixed an issue where phantom arms (ie arms already blown off) would absorb damage. So they actually have buffed them so that they are actually somewhat useful against heavier targets, well at least a good deal better than before. What else could they do to make the weapon better balanced to not be specifically a light hunting weapon?

I am also a CW player where team composition actually matters and the game plays out a good deal differently than quick play. Tactics and counters matter there. Although when I used to do the quick play if there was a light event going on after I completed it, I hoped in my trusty Streak Dog and racked up the coin in this ever so grindy game (thanks PGI for making me space rich with skill tree drop so I don't have to ever quick play again). It's just part of the game.

Oh and back to skill, are you saying with your stats, which are really quite impressive considering you mainly pilot lights (good job btw), that streaks are really an big issue for you? I know my unit's leader Tanner (praise be) laughed today about hunting Flea's with streaks and had a good time doing it (which is rare since most of the time you would never catch him there). But for outside of 20 tonner's being released and events, are streaks really that much of an issue in quick play generally?

[Y E O N N E]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

So it's also frustrating when a no skill light pilot (ie the majority of them running around) can run straight into a mech and facehug him to death with worrying about them being able to shoot back. So we can knock of the no skill argument as the vast majority of this game is played no skill to begin with.

Not really. If you are all out by yourself, that's an issue, but why the hell are you all out by yourself in such a 'Mech and not with a team that can peel off this now-barely-moving Light?

More pointedly, 'Mechs that have this aiming issue also typically carry enough firepower to delete every other weight class in short order, so there's your trade-off. The Light, by comparison, is always a nibbler.

[S O L A I S]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yes. But Magic is also smart enough to only engage when he is reasonably certain he has an advantage, so your perception is skewed.

Ergo, your streaks are probably not all that effective on him, either, as he's going to kill your team out from under you and then kill you, unless his own team lets him down.

Note: I think streaks (and any lock-on weapon) are annoying skill-free bullsh*t and people who use them unironically are irredeemable scum, but I do not necessarily share the OP's sentiment. I've been successfully Streaked exactly zero times since the Flea dropped and not for lack of the enemy trying. They are reasonably avoidable and nearly useless against anything heavier than 50-55 tons. They are salt-inducing when they get you, but most of them die horrible, embarassing deaths, as well they deserve.

Oh gees. Well first you and I watch the same streams and talk to a lot of the same people so pretty sure you don't hate me. Next time you're watching Reckless I'll shout out to you for laughs.

Magic and the Goons are worthy opponents. I bring him up out of respect for him (you too as you have actually given me a good deal of helpful advice over the last couple of years). I have however managed to chase him down with streaks. Probably because I am not a total potato (just a BCMC CW scrub), and positioning matters.

Oh and the lurms, other than Reckless' million dollar smile, and pure hilarity of Writhenn's facerolling the keyboard I don't particularly enjoy or favour the weapon. Right now however with the buffs you can't just shrug em off like before, and guys with skill and knowledge of the game right now can make good use of them.

So taking the disdain out of it, right now they are effective in certain situations and if your goal is playing as part of a team and countering things quickly and effectively, streaks are a legitimate option.

[S O L A I S]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

Not really. If you are all out by yourself, that's an issue, but why the hell are you all out by yourself in such a 'Mech and not with a team that can peel off this now-barely-moving Light?

More pointedly, 'Mechs that have this aiming issue also typically carry enough firepower to delete every other weight class in short order, so there's your trade-off. The Light, by comparison, is always a nibbler.

Yeah, it is rare for me to play this game without being in a CW group of some shape or form. So getting caught out is not something that happens. However there are tons of situations where folks who love the taste of glass run straight up to you where you can't shoot them. It generally doesn't work out too well for them but it is annoying af.

[dario03]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

It is justified because it is a counter. The game already has some really frustrating mechanics such as mechs not being able to look down to shoot lights.

So it's also frustrating when a no skill light pilot (ie the majority of them running around) can run straight into a mech and facehug him to death with worrying about them being able to shoot back. So we can knock of the no skill argument as the vast majority of this game is played no skill to begin with.

PGI also just recently made streak go after side torsos more often and fixed an issue where phantom arms (ie arms already blown off) would absorb damage. So they actually have buffed them so that they are actually somewhat useful against heavier targets, well at least a good deal better than before. What else could they do to make the weapon better balanced to not be specifically a light hunting weapon?

I am also a CW player where team composition actually matters and the game plays out a good deal differently than quick play. Tactics and counters matter there. Although when I used to do the quick play if there was a light event going on after I completed it, I hoped in my trusty Streak Dog and racked up the coin in this ever so grindy game (thanks PGI for making me space rich with skill tree drop so I don't have to ever quick play again). It's just part of the game.

Oh and back to skill, are you saying with your stats, which are really quite impressive considering you mainly pilot lights (good job btw), that streaks are really an big issue for you? I know my unit's leader Tanner (praise be) laughed today about hunting Flea's with streaks and had a good time doing it (which is rare since most of the time you would never catch him there). But for outside of 20 tonner's being released and events, are streaks really that much of an issue in quick play generally?

In QP they are not a super big issue as far as killing me goes, it happens but its more so that I find their design quite annoying. If I wanted to fight against auto-aim weapons I would just play single player games. When I play against other people I want to play skill vs skill, streaks lower that feeling quite a bit. When cssrm first came out I did some tests vs people of varying skill and there was no real difference between a guy that was one of the best and somebody that's decent. And the just run away from any possible streak boat no matter who is piloting it is a boring counter play.
However in comp they are quite effective. So much so that mrbc banned them in the medium/light drops because a bunch of mechs pointing in each others general direction isn't that interesting.
I have a similar position with LRMs. I don't mind them as much since they actually work a bit different than other weapons and don't find them that good. However I am against buffing them without a rework because I find them very boring to play against. One or two boats is fine but when half a team is them its just boring win or lose.

As for changes, I have mentioned it before. The quick version that I posted earlier
They should lower their damage but make them hit torso more often against bigger targets. Make them a more general weapon than an anti-light weapon since everything is anti-light when aimed right.
I would lower it a lot and then speed up the cooldown a bit so that the dps isn't much lower but the alpha is. That way you could get out of there after getting hit but before being blasted by a ~60dmg auto aim alpha. Also put in some kind of negative if artemis is equipped to counter the zero crit/weight bonus.

Edited by dario03, 21 June 2018 - 10:58 PM.

[S O L A I S]

dario03, on 21 June 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

In QP they are not a super big issue as far as killing me goes, it happens but its more so that I find their design quite annoying. If I wanted to fight against auto-aim weapons I would just play single player games. When I play against other people I want to play skill vs skill, streaks lower that feeling quite a bit. When cssrm first came out I did some tests vs people of varying skill and there was no real difference between a guy that was one of the best and somebody that's decent. And the just run away from any possible streak boat no matter who is piloting it is a boring counter play.
However in comp they are quite effective. So much so that mrbc banned them in the medium/light drops because a bunch of mechs pointing in each others general direction isn't that interesting.
I have a similar position with LRMs. I don't mind them as much since they actually work a bit different than other weapons and don't find them that good. However I am against buffing them without a rework because I find them very boring to play against. One or two boats is fine but when half a team is them its just boring win or lose.

As for changes, I have mentioned it before. The quick version that I posted earlier
They should lower their damage but make them hit torso more often against bigger targets. Make them a more general weapon than an anti-light weapon since everything is anti-light when aimed right.
I would lower it a lot and then speed up the cooldown a bit so that the dps isn't much lower but the alpha is. That way you could get out of there after getting hit but before being blasted by a ~60dmg auto aim alpha. Also put in some kind of negative if artemis is equipped to counter the zero crit/weight bonus.

Have to admit that I thought the artemis issue was resolved but likely have it on my current Streak Crow (was originally splat). As far as making them a more generalised weapon, I think PGI has tried but honestly I would never, ever use them against heavies. Although if using them and I see a heavy I am going to be trying to streak his back.... I digress. Basically I don't disagree with your suggestions. Of coarse originally I only used streaks over srm's for that extra range. Oh and since I am decent at tracking I actually think it might make a difference if you increase the difficulty in keeping a light locked so that it was similar to that of the skill required holding a burn from let's say a heavy large laser on a dodging and weaving Locust. Make that streak guy have to track and hold a target would also probably be a change that would be good for those inclined towards the skill end of things. The current mechanic is a touch to easy to maintain. However considering how anti skill PGI has proven to be as of late, and a player population made of well....running out of clean glass jokes but yeah, I really doubt such changes would be considered. Hey did you ever read the folks talking about the high skill involved when lurm bending around corners? The rage over that mechanic being cleaned up is still palpable and give it a few days and I am sure it will be brought up in another ridiculous lurm thread....

[dario03]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

Have to admit that I thought the artemis issue was resolved but likely have it on my current Streak Crow (was originally splat). As far as making them a more generalised weapon, I think PGI has tried but honestly I would never, ever use them against heavies. Although if using them and I see a heavy I am going to be trying to streak his back.... I digress. Basically I don't disagree with your suggestions. Of coarse originally I only used streaks over srm's for that extra range. Oh and since I am decent at tracking I actually think it might make a difference if you increase the difficulty in keeping a light locked so that it was similar to that of the skill required holding a burn from let's say a heavy large laser on a dodging and weaving Locust. Make that streak guy have to track and hold a target would also probably be a change that would be good for those inclined towards the skill end of things. The current mechanic is a touch to easy to maintain. However considering how anti skill PGI has proven to be as of late, and a player population made of well....running out of clean glass jokes but yeah, I really doubt such changes would be considered. Hey did you ever read the folks talking about the high skill involved when lurm bending around corners? The rage over that mechanic being cleaned up is still palpable and give it a few days and I am sure it will be brought up in another ridiculous lurm thread....

Another thing for streaks that I didn't say in this thread yet would be giving them something like a jam mechanic that is more likely to happen against smaller mechs. I think that would actually fit lore more as well for anybody that cares about that. Since streaks are not supposed to fire unless it decides that all missiles will hit but beyond that they work like srms. And hitting ~30srms on a light isn't super easy. So basically you lock on and when you fire, all weapons would start the cooldown but some would not actually fire.

For LRM bending are you talking about getting lock, firing, purposely losing lock, then regaining it to change the angle? Or just firing while not pointing right at the enemy?

[S O L A I S]

dario03, on 22 June 2018 - 12:03 AM, said:

Another thing for streaks that I didn't say in this thread yet would be giving them something like a jam mechanic that is more likely to happen against smaller mechs. I think that would actually fit lore more as well for anybody that cares about that. Since streaks are not supposed to fire unless it decides that all missiles will hit but beyond that they work like srms. And hitting ~30srms on a light isn't super easy. So basically you lock on and when you fire, all weapons would start the cooldown but some would not actually fire.

For LRM bending are you talking about getting lock, firing, purposely losing lock, then regaining it to change the angle? Or just firing while not pointing right at the enemy?

Nah I mean when PGI tightened the radius. People were upset that they couldn't get a lock, twist away from it and fire causing a kind of bending around corners effect.

Jamming mechanic I don't know. To me that doesn't address your main issue with the lack of skill involved in using the weapon. Personally think the way to go would be making the mechanic harder. Ever play Top Gun video game as a kid? Keeping an enemy locked, especially in the higher levels required constant finite adjustment to hold. The current mechanic to lock onto things is really easy, and basically impossible to lose unless you are really, really terrible. Have played other games which have lock on mechanics that are much more difficult to hold.

Basically I would be onboard completely with a light being able to really make it hard to keep a lock. The mechanic could be changed in a few different ways to achieve this. Right now you have an absolute giant red square and a reticle that you are only required to keep in the general vicinity once you get a lock. Too easy. Lower the tracking threshold and make the amount of time very short if you don't hold that target or track it properly. Tighten the box and make it so you have to keep on that target with a bit of precision.

Yeah instead of a jamming or other frustrating mechanic, which I don't really want to see in game, my vote is that it would be much better for all if we focused on making the weapon not easy mode. Less damage and more dps I think would complement that change as well. As a bonus, the skill of holding and tracking would be a transferable one that players would benefit from using other weapons. I know when I burn down a locust who is dodging and weaving with heavy large lasers I feel a bit like a rockstar. No sensible person would currently get that rush from the way that streaks currently work.

[dario03]

S O L A I S, on 22 June 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

Nah I mean when PGI tightened the radius. People were upset that they couldn't get a lock, twist away from it and fire causing a kind of bending around corners effect.

Jamming mechanic I don't know. To me that doesn't address your main issue with the lack of skill involved in using the weapon. Personally think the way to go would be making the mechanic harder. Ever play Top Gun video game as a kid? Keeping an enemy locked, especially in the higher levels required constant finite adjustment to hold. The current mechanic to lock onto things is really easy, and basically impossible to lose unless you are really, really terrible. Have played other games which have lock on mechanics that are much more difficult to hold.

Basically I would be onboard completely with a light being able to really make it hard to keep a lock. The mechanic could be changed in a few different ways to achieve this. Right now you have an absolute giant red square and a reticle that you are only required to keep in the general vicinity once you get a lock. Too easy. Lower the tracking threshold and make the amount of time very short if you don't hold that target or track it properly. Tighten the box and make it so you have to keep on that target with a bit of precision.

Yeah instead of a jamming or other frustrating mechanic, which I don't really want to see in game, my vote is that it would be much better for all if we focused on making the weapon not easy mode. Less damage and more dps I think would complement that change as well. As a bonus, the skill of holding and tracking would be a transferable one that players would benefit from using other weapons. I know when I burn down a locust who is dodging and weaving with heavy large lasers I feel a bit like a rockstar. No sensible person would currently get that rush from the way that streaks currently work.

yeah that would work too. Make it so you need to be on the mech more than now with just the general area of the box. I'm fine with any of them really.

[Weeny Machine]

S O L A I S, on 21 June 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

I will use this example again because you will relate. Do you think Magic Pain Glove is easy to kill with direct fire? Most who have played against him, even those who are good shots will not land 100% on him. Actually even with streaks the guy is tough to kill in a light.

Streaks are not the highest skill weapon granted but it is an effective one. There are also really solid counters. Ask ISMO what they do to completely negate streaks in CW.

So, you want to kill a much better/more skilled player easily? Why should you be able to. If someone who is a good pilot sits in a heavy or assault he isn't killed easily either.

Carchemish, on 21 June 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yyyeah...when the Piranhas get nerfed into normalcy, I'll stop using my streak crow. Till then, too bad. Tired of regularly seeing 800+ damage on those stupidly overpowered things.

Spec into the survival tree and go for crit reduction and MGs won't do much. Also, again such a wild claim from someone who has played 22 matches in the last 3 seasons. If those lights are sooooo overpowered, why don't you play them more and own everyone? /chuckle

Edited by Bush Hopper, 22 June 2018 - 05:00 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

I understand skilled light pilots getting annoyed that there is a lock no miss weapon in the game. I myself still wish that PGI could actually program and put melee back into the game. Sorry but from a TT perspective and even other online games no one in a small machine with any sanity is going to want to close with a much larger machine that not only is bigger but should be carrying more weapons, much more armor, and the ability to just punch or kick the living daylights out of the annoying bug. Now a light swarm aka wolf pack is more acceptable. Works for for wolves, lions, velociraptors. In MWO however you have lights who stand right below an assault whos weapons can not reach and just eat him alive.

[Nightbird]

It killed me, nerf it!

[Fragosaurus Rex]

TechChris, on 21 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

Amen! I'll feel bad about using streaks when there's a MEANINGFUL change to MGs, not the token slap on the wrist they got a few patches ago.
Not to mention the "Quasi- Nerf" to streaks a few patches ago that PGI tried to pass off as an "Improvement" where they "Improved" there "bone" targeting choices so they would work similar against all mech types. IMO, just made em worse against anything sub 50 tons, in trade for a negligible improvement against anything 50 tons plus.

I can guarantee you from being on either side of the engagement, that machine gun lights (especially the piranha) are easy to kill with just a sprinkle of aiming. It's almost like they're made out of paper mache. Regardless, If you get yourself in a situation where a machine gun light is underneath you, you made a major error in positioning or shot placement leading up to that moment.

But please, enlighten me on why light mechs deserve a hard counter, despite them being the most difficult chassis to play? Why not introduce a hard counter to medium mechs? Heavies? Assaults?

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

It killed me, nerf it!

Paul, is that you?

[Chortles]

Tom Sawyer, on 22 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

I understand skilled light pilots getting annoyed that there is a lock no miss weapon in the game. I myself still wish that PGI could actually program and put melee back into the game. Sorry but from a TT perspective and even other online games no one in a small machine with any sanity is going to want to close with a much larger machine that not only is bigger but should be carrying more weapons, much more armor, and the ability to just punch or kick the living daylights out of the annoying bug. Now a light swarm aka wolf pack is more acceptable. Works for for wolves, lions, velociraptors. In MWO however you have lights who stand right below an assault whos weapons can not reach and just eat him alive.

If you can't hit lights with your guns, you're probably going to miss with the melee as well.

[Tom Sawyer]

[Chortles]

That's not melee.