63 replies to this topic

[Ricashbringer]

I am tired of players running around with a mass of machine guns, gunning other mechs down. The machine guns generate no heat, and never jam. Yet, autocannons and rotary cannons do jam, sometimes with very little fire. In the real world machine guns under constant fire have barrels that overheat and need to be changed out. They may suffer jams that require clearing or other failures from the force of the action. I just think that machine guns need to experience a certain rate of failure or cool down after a certain number of rounds are expended. I think that would balance them out better.

[justcallme A S H]

Most ACs and RACs have useable range of 600m (give or take).

MGs have about 150, and only boated, on mechs under 40T.

Perhaps revisit your positioning and map awareness. That is what is killing you, not the MGs.

[Y E O N N E]

A cooling system capable of handling many tens to even hundreds of megawatts of heat from larger weapons is more than sufficient to handle the puny load from machine guns.

As far as I'm concerned, MG 'Mechs are already plenty balanced. Most of them are made of paper, and the two bigger ones (Shadow Cat and Arrow) are large and easy targets. They also require a long time to work a target over. While players in QP are inattentive and often allow these 'Mechs to get away with literal murder, when it comes time to play as a team they often have to twiddle their thumbs on the side-lines waiting for an opportunity to actually contribute.

And, if played correctly, any 'Mech should only commit to an engagement it is certain it can win. Hence the seeming out-size effectiveness of MG boats: I'm not going to attempt to drill the front of a fresh Annihilator 1v1.

[El Bandito]

I am more frustrated against MGs critting out weapons near instantly, than they actually killing me. Only reason I die to MG boats is cause I get all my weapons critted out by them, thus no way to retaliate.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 June 2018 - 08:19 PM.

[Prototelis]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 June 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

While players in QP are inattentive and often allow these 'Mechs to get away with literal murder, when it comes time to play as a team they often have to twiddle their thumbs on the side-lines waiting for an opportunity to actually contribute.

This is generally how it goes when you face competent players.

So here we are again; Can you show me on the paper doll where the light mech touched you?

[The Lighthouse]

Most likely, we will have these "machineguns are OP" thread until the end of this game's life.

Unless, as usual, PGI finally succumbs to majority's opinion and introduces ghost heat for machineguns, happily putting mechs like Mist Lynx (which really machinegun variant is very last usable setup for this particular mech) and Arctic Cheetah to where they rightfully belong:



A cold,



forgotten,



graveyard,



where other hundreds of nerfed, underpowered mechs lie, never to see the light ever again.



At this point, I fully expect only Wolfhound and Urbie would be only usable light mechs in a few months. At least Urbies are fun to play.


Plus: Yes... Piranha will be available for cbills in July 3rd, and then the machineguns will have ghost heat via July patch. Trust me, with such frequent 'machinegun op' threads coming up, they will be nerfed.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 24 June 2018 - 08:52 PM.

[Elizander]

I sat with a Supernova LRM80 boat in one QP match using my Kitfox. I fought a flea and a piranha and scared them off by shooting their legs. The LRM Supernova then proceeded to utterly destroy the enemy team including the fleeing lights.

Personally I just want PGI to fix Torso Pitch on certain mechs so they can actually shoot the smaller mechs. Atlas vs Piranha is 100% unwinnable simple because you can't even see it when it hugs your legs.

Edited by Elizander, 24 June 2018 - 09:36 PM.

[JediPanther]

That six lmg 100 ton king crap err craby patty is very op at 120m. The real question is how did you let one of the slowest biggest targets in the game close to within 120m? Oh this is just another nerf light mech thread because the lct 1v,lct 3, fle 15,fle 19,fle fa,osr 1p,osr 2v,osr 3d,sekhmet,spd 5k,anansi,um k9,um r60,um r 60l,um r 63,street cleaner,ember,fire storm,fs9 h,pnt 10p,rvn 4x, huggin,pir 1,pir a,pir b,cipher,mlx a,mlx d,mlx g,mlx prime,ach b,ach e,shard,kfx c,purifier,kfx prime,kfx s,adr b,cinder,adr d,blood adder,cou c,cou d,cou h, and the Fury must ALL BE OP due to their Balistic mounts for those SO OP MGS!

My Deiety man! Just look at all those OP mechs? Why would you ever play any other class when you have all 45 OP MG LIGHTS!? Did I miss one? New mechs on pre-order with massive MH OP-NESS I forget? Shall I do the other three weight classes that can mount such an OP weapon?

[Prototelis]

It's the nature of this game;

Bad decision > Horrible death > complain on forums


When you get wrecked by a light, especially the PIR, its generally because you aren't paying attention or are isolated.

Elizander, on 24 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

100% unwinnable simple because you can't even see it when it hugs your legs.

This is a ******** argument that I am tired of.

If you got facehugged and died it is SOLELY because you are isolated. This is the worst possible tactic in a light, and if you died to it you legit are doing something very wrong.

LOCK YOUR TARGET and aim for the middle of the big red box. Keep your legs and torso moving.

Edited by Prototelis, 24 June 2018 - 09:42 PM.

[lazorbeamz]

Elizander, on 24 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

I sat with a Supernova LRM80 boat in one QP match using my Kitfox. I fought a flea and a piranha and scared them off by shooting their legs. The LRM Supernova then proceeded to utterly destroy the enemy team including the fleeing lights.

Personally I just want PGI to fix Torso Pitch on certain mechs so they can actually shoot the smaller mechs. Atlas vs Piranha is 100% unwinnable simple because you can't even see it when it hugs your legs.

Because pitch angle matters. If all mechs could pitch down then it would mean that it just doesnt matter see? We dont want it to not matter. Its one of those details which make this game.

[Dogstar]

The only thing that's OP about machine guns is the ridiculous critical multiplier, that's why they can strip weapons and structure out so quickly. The multiplier really needs to be turned down a lot.

[ShiverMeRivets]

The 12 cLMG on the piranah have the same DPS as 2AC10 except that they weight 4 tons instead of 24 tons and produce 0 heat - and they crit much better.

[Vesper11]

ShiverMeRivets, on 25 June 2018 - 12:51 AM, said:

The 12 cLMG on the piranah have the same DPS as 2AC10 except that they weight 4 tons instead of 24 tons and produce 0 heat - and they crit much better.

And have much lower range and have spread and require facetime and require more slots and can't burst like 2xUAC10.
Rather than nerf MGs other knifefighter weapons could use a buff, especially microcrap lasers.

[Dao Feng]

Ricashbringer, on 24 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

I am tired of players running around with a mass of machine guns, gunning other mechs down. The machine guns generate no heat, and never jam. Yet, autocannons and rotary cannons do jam, sometimes with very little fire. In the real world machine guns under constant fire have barrels that overheat and need to be changed out. They may suffer jams that require clearing or other failures from the force of the action. I just think that machine guns need to experience a certain rate of failure or cool down after a certain number of rounds are expended. I think that would balance them out better.

You got assrekted by a mg light and the best way you can deal with your hurt feelings is to cry about it here?

Get urself a streakcrow, gank the living snot out of lights in your next several games and enjoy the power trip when they flee in terror from you. You'll feel better than being a whiney baby on forums.

Edited by Dao Feng, 25 June 2018 - 01:44 AM.

[O L L O]

Vesper11, on 25 June 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

...and have spread...

Do they?

Edited by Ollollo, 25 June 2018 - 01:50 AM.

[Yondu Udonta]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

I am more frustrated against MGs critting out weapons near instantly, than they actually killing me. Only reason I die to MG boats is cause I get all my weapons critted out by them, thus no way to retaliate.

I had my internals critted by a LMG MLX from more than 400m within 2 seconds. Crit chance should also decrease linearly with damage for balance.

[Koniving]

You know, you could try shooting the guy with machine guns instead of letting him get behind you....

Just shoot the leg.
Boom, limp limp limp.

Enjoy the ensuing sadomasochistic massacre that follows.

[Koniving]

Yondu Udonta, on 25 June 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

I had my internals critted by a LMG MLX from more than 400m within 2 seconds. Crit chance should also decrease linearly with damage for balance.

8 LMGs doing 11.2 damage in that 2 second time frame, factoring crits can range from 11.2 to 16.24 damage.
At said range with maximum range skill tree, 5.92928 to 8.597456 damage.

That's structure. Crit damage..
Unfettered by range: max 33.6. Min 0. Likely: 16.8.
IF CRITS ARE Fettered by the given range: max: 17.78784. Min: 0. Likely: 8.89392

Depending on what you had for equipment...
in terms of Clan equipment, nothing you had would survive.
In terms of IS equipment the only things that could survive are class 20 ballistics.
Even if the crits are fettered by the given range.

In other words regardless of if they are or are not in fact wittled in damage potential by the range... you were screwed to lose at least some equipment.

But hey, think about it this way: A Clan AC/20 would've outshined them at the same range and done the same.
And nobody wants to use a Clan AC/20 even though its colder.

I know that's not the same as having a reduced crit chance, but if crit damage is reduced by range, it helps quite a bit. After all every single little bullet has a 28% chance of doing 0.07 damage to your equipment. Actually wait... We've hit a snag...

Gimme a few to edit this after I figure it out.
____________________________________

And back!

Okay so this needs a little reworking, PGI did something sneaky.

If you care, check the spoiler. (Done to reduce the scroll impact of this post and the maths.)

Spoiler

Each individual "Crit" gives a crit damage of 0.49 for a Clan LMG, not a crit damage of 0.07 as would be keeping with every other weapon in the game (except LBX, LBX does double crit damage per 'hit' at 2 damage instead of 1)... That makes the MG family pretty nasty.
That's assuming this doesn't mean a crit per second, if it is a crit check per second instead of per bullet, then its a major nerf.

Either way there's a 28% chance of doing 0.49 crit damage (either per bullet or per second depending on how PGI did it).
There's a 15.5% chance of doing 0.98 crit damage.
Then there's a 3.5% chance of doing 1.47 crit damage.
And finally a 53% chance that the MG/LMG/HMG user will get a fat slab of NOTHING per crit roll.

Now in terms of easing the load of math on the server and the script hogging, a per second crit check makes a LOT more sense than a per bullet crit check (it'd be 10 checks per second, per MG for 80 checks per second in the case of the MLX, or 120 checks per second in the case of the Piranha, per mech boating MGs on a server that operates several dozen games at 100 FPS [without rendering graphics, but still]... that'd be a serious performance grinder).

So it is very likely that MGs are checking once per second similar to lasers. As I mentioned, however, that's a hell of a nerf to how any non-laser weapon works in terms of crits, and would make those "max" damage caps significantly lower.

Refactored crit damage per bullet if it works that way:

Quote

Crit damage.. (A refresher: This is factoring an "Every single crit is triple crits for 2 seconds worth of fire for 8 LMGs* as the "max" value and half that as the likely value).
Unfettered by range: max 235.2. Min 0. Likely: 117.6
IF CRITS ARE Fettered by the given range: max: 188.14. Min: 0. Likely: 94.07

So very unlikely to be working by per bullet at the stats I pulled from smurfy. It'd be the most overpowered thing in the game.

There's no way that's the case as otherwise we'd be pumping out between 5.6 up to 40.88 ACTUAL STRUCTURE DAMAGE per second with LMGs. (Please look again at the refresher note above.)

At crit per second... Again note the refresher above.

Quote

Crit damage..
Unfettered by range: max 23.52. Min 0. Likely: 11.76
IF CRITS ARE Fettered by the given range: max: 12.451488. Min: 0. Likely: 6.225744

So.. that's a lot more likely. But if that's the case, then crit damage is not fettered by range (unless your destroyed equipment was particularly weak or already damaged.)

Huh. Learn something new every day. So MGs are severely underpowered, according to smurfy's little crit note. MOAR BUFFS NEEDED!!!

(Nah, I think they're fine; just SHOOT the ******* in the leg and go back to having fun.)
(Got everything triple checked. Anyone want to tweet whomever does Thomas's old job [weapon designer] to see how the MGs are doing their crits?)

Edited by Koniving, 25 June 2018 - 03:19 AM.

[Prototelis]

Koniving, on 25 June 2018 - 02:19 AM, said:

You know, you could try shooting the guy with machine guns instead of letting him get behind you....

Just shoot the leg.
Boom, limp limp limp.

Enjoy the ensuing sadomasochistic massacre that follows.

Just be sure you aren't close when you do leg one, it might literally eat your face.

[Elizander]

Prototelis, on 24 June 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

It's the nature of this game;

Bad decision > Horrible death > complain on forums


When you get wrecked by a light, especially the PIR, its generally because you aren't paying attention or are isolated.



This is a ******** argument that I am tired of.

If you got facehugged and died it is SOLELY because you are isolated. This is the worst possible tactic in a light, and if you died to it you legit are doing something very wrong.

LOCK YOUR TARGET and aim for the middle of the big red box. Keep your legs and torso moving.

I'll just call on my ally in Solaris 1v1 to help me out man.