63 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

Yeah IS heavily quirked mechs now running c-XL engines and Clan Weapons...

Like the game isn't impossible to balance now

Yes, so that's why I said start clean. No quirks on all mechs. See how they perform with all equipment, then put quirks on needed mechs.

This game may be not impossible to balance with current restrictions, but based on how Chris is going to 'balance' Clan Gauss and lasers, I think it's time to call it a day and go down easier route.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 27 June 2018 - 08:13 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

Annihilator C and C2 then with Guasszilla hero with 5 cgr, and add the rest of the C lineup of other battlemechs. Boom mixtech.

[KoalaBrownie]

Battlemaster56, on 27 June 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

Annihilator C and C2 then with Guasszilla hero with 5 cgr, and add the rest of the C lineup of other battlemechs. Boom mixtech.

Last thing this game needs is to give the stupid Gausszilla more validation.

[DaZur]

This is what happens when game developers allow the core aspects of a game to deviate from the IP foundation from which it is based...

I want to slap a 18-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp radial into a Boeing P-26 "Peashooter...

[Mystere]

Battlemaster56, on 27 June 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

So foreplay.

/s

???

[justcallme A S H]

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

Yes, so that's why I said start clean. No quirks on all mechs. See how they perform with all equipment, then put quirks on needed mechs.

This game may be not impossible to balance with current restrictions, but based on how Chris is going to 'balance' Clan Gauss and lasers, I think it's time to call it a day and go down easier route.

Start Clean.

After 5 years.

You just don't get the gravity of such a suggestion, at all. It's the harder route, much harder,

[FupDup]

DaZur, on 27 June 2018 - 09:12 PM, said:

This is what happens when game developers allow the core aspects of a game to deviate from the IP foundation from which it is based...

I want to slap a 18-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp radial into a Boeing P-26 "Peashooter...

Mixed tech did actually happen in the IP/lore, so that's not the issue. The issue is that it would suck for balance and variety.

[The6thMessenger]

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

Yes, that's why I said...

So all mechs start without any quirks, see how they perform, then put quirks based on each mechs' performance. So terrible mechs such as Vindicator will have more quirks than other mechs. Difference is that now mechs like Cougar would have proper quirks which was denied by the fact it is a Clan mech.

And no, it is not stupid. It is not just CAC are worthless. We have a lot of weapons and equipment are worthless already. And there is no way we can make them ALL viable.

I mean, like we are completely ignoring one entire weapon class called LRMs. Even changing into mixtech won't make much difference regarding obsolete weapons because we already have plenty of them, and actually mixtech will both create both new viable and obsolete weapons.

However, at least we can fix mech balances and overall weapon type balances if we kill 'faction distinction' restrictions. Merely going mixtech won't solve all problems and may cause new problems, but it will solve the most severe problems.

Really? Undo 5 years of balancing. Sure, lets do that.

Look, I'm okay with literally starting over, I am. I am quite fine in redefining, or at least rediscovering which are the baseline.

But if the approach is the same -- as in if PGI's approach is literally the same, like nerfing UAC10 as a whole when only Kodiak was OP, then we'll invariably go to the same mess we are headed right now.

Because that's the same approach they did before, that's what they are doing right now with them having all the data at their fingertips, that's what they are going to do after starting over.

You know the definition of insanity right? If we want to help, we need them to change how they look at things, that is what Tarogato and co. are trying to do with their Community Driven Balance, albeit from the veteran try-hard perspective.

Sure, I guess the mixed tech would mean that where we end up will be completely different. But with little understanding how players play the game, they will end up not where we need the balance to be, just as they aren't where we need the balance to be right now.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 July 2018 - 07:36 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I have to say.. with all the constant balancing stupidity.. maybe mixtech isn't a bad idea.. But in any case, weather yes or no, if we're equalizing clan and IS alpha potential, we also need to equalize clan and IS mech toughness..

Cose' clan mechs are glass cannons, while IS mechs are tanks.. not balanced right?

[Battlemaster56]

Mystere, on 27 June 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

???

Just being cheeky about the idea.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 27 June 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

Really? Undo 5 years of balancing. Sure, lets do that.

Look, I'm okay with literally starting over, i do. But if the approach is the same -- as in if PGI's approach is literally the same, like nerfing UAC10 as a whole when only Kodiak was OP, then we'll invariably go to the same mess we are headed right now.

Because that's the same approach they did before, that's what they are doing right now with them having all the data at their fingertips, that's what they are going to do after starting over.

You know the definition of insanity right? If we want to help, we need them to change how they look at things, that is what Tarogato and co. are trying to do with their Community Driven Balance.

If that is the case, then I must really insist on this:

Mystere, on 27 June 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

I have more "radical" ideas:

• forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. Clan drops only (i.e. no mixed teams)
  
• lore-friendly Clans and IS formations
  
• drop sizes tailored to battle at hand
  
• dump all eSports attributes outside of Solaris (i.e. we have "battles", not "matches")
  
• Clan equipment are tailored for the individual warrior, IS ones are tailored to enhance teamwork
  
• etc., etc., etc.

Just take this part out.

The6thMessenger, on 27 June 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

Sure, i guess the mixed tech would mean that where we end up will be completely different. But with little understanding how players play the game, they will end up not where we need the balance to be, just as they aren't where we need the balance to be right now.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:12 PM, said:

I have to say.. with all the constant balancing stupidity.. maybe mixtech isn't a bad idea.. But in any case, weather yes or no, if we're equalizing clan and IS alpha potential, we also need to equalize clan and IS mech toughness..

Cose' clan mechs are glass cannons, while IS mechs are tanks.. not balanced right?

Hey! You!
Yes, you!
Hide in the corner before someone notices.

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2018 - 05:44 AM.

[JimSuperBleeder]

I'd never use FILTHY clan tech!

[Tom Sawyer]

Only way to get mixtech is to have fix and repair costs back into the game. Any mech requires a tech and you need really good one to try to shove different components together. Real world and showing my age I now for a fact you CAN put a chevy 350 small block engine into a toyota celica. It required almost NO firewall, the passenger compartment got hotter than the hinges of hell, but it turned out some pretty impressive quarter mile numbers. It also cost some change to make it work.

[Almond Brown]

Damn I love this place... Some of the craziest "****" ever comes out of here. Keep it up folks because MW5 is going to need all the same crazy talk after it launches, despite it being a SP game.. LOL!

MixTech... LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 June 2018 - 09:22 AM.

[Scout Derek]

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Almost nobody uses Standard Engine, both IS and Clan, anyway, in the first place.

And IS XL engines were already mostly dead thanks to LFE. With exception of IS light mechs I think only 2~3 mechs using IS XL engine, from 400+ mechs I have.

that's a lie if I ever saw one. People still use Standard engine to this day regardless of the coming of LFE or not for max survival. LFE implementation was the result of XL clan engines. Inner Sphere XLs are still around, and as usual, on very specific builds.

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

If you still worry about things getting obsolete, we can always make them different. Like giving IS XL massive agility boost to mechs Standard Engine getting massive heat generation quirks. And we can do this without worrying about faction balance.

It's not that I don't worry about it being obsolete, it's that I worry that we will just go through another wild wild quirk west in MWO, with insane quirks that made for stupidly overpowered mechs. And you KNOW that it CAN happen.

Almond Brown, on 28 June 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

Damn I love this place... Some of the craziest "****" ever comes out of here. Keep it up folks because MW5 is going to need all the same crazy talk after it launches, despite it being a SP game.. LOL!

MixTech... LOL!

Yeah, I think I lost it after someone tried saying that the World Champions doesn't get a huge crowd because it isn't played on secure servers... wtf.

[Andi Nagasia]

i dont think Mixed Tech would be a Good idea in MWO, as the Min Maxing would get much worse,
also if it were implemented into MWO, i can only see weapons and Equipment being mixed,
things such as Clan Endo/Ferro i dont think would be interchangeable as they are base line,

[The Lighthouse]

Scout Derek, on 28 June 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

that's a lie if I ever saw one. People still use Standard engine to this day regardless of the coming of LFE or not for max survival. LFE implementation was the result of XL clan engines. Inner Sphere XLs are still around, and as usual, on very specific builds.



It's not that I don't worry about it being obsolete, it's that I worry that we will just go through another wild wild quirk west in MWO, with insane quirks that made for stupidly overpowered mechs. And you KNOW that it CAN happen.


Yeah, I think I lost it after someone tried saying that the World Champions doesn't get a huge crowd because it isn't played on secure servers... wtf.

yes, thus I said "almost". It is not like Standard engine is totally not used by anyone. Hell, popular Heavy Gauss builds require standard engine. And pretty much all of my 65 IS light mechs use XL engine except one Panther.

But other than such very specific cases, you just don't see them all. Before LFE it was often I do see Battlemasters using XL engine, but nowdays I see all of them changed into LFE.

Yes we may have some wild quirks happening, but it will be far better than current situation because we removed one of the most restrictive backgrounds called factions.

[Xeno Phalcon]

While i'd certainly like to salvage a clan 250XL or a wack of clan DHS its simply not going to happen because it would require yet ANOTHER complete rebalance of mechs and weapons. Especially with them nerfing clan lasers right around the corner.

[CanadianCyrus]

My proposal for introducing mixtech but still letting each faction have their own distinction, would be to allow mixtech for weapons and equipment that both factions share. For instance, ACs, ER/Pulse Lasers, LRM/SRM/Streak, etc. What doesn't transfer over would be ATMs and Heavy Lasers for Clans (and later HAGs and ER Pulse,etc), while IS keeps MRMs and Light/Heavy Gauss (and later Plasma Rifles, Bombast Laser, etc). This helps level out the damage while still giving each faction access to unique tech.

[Stinger554]

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

SNIP

Won't get any arguments from me. Mixtech including using Clan FF, ES, DHS, XL etc is going to be the easiest way to balance the game.

While I understand the concerns about making some tech and weapons obsolete, at this point it's a question of do you want the game to be balanced in a reasonable amount of time or not?

The Lighthouse, on 28 June 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

But other than such very specific cases, you just don't see them all. Before LFE it was often I do see Battlemasters using XL engine, but nowdays I see all of them changed into LFE.

That's because LFE is better than XL except in some edge cases.