63 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior1441491]

The Lighthouse, on 27 June 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Almost nobody uses Standard Engine, both IS and Clan, anyway, in the first place.

And IS XL engines were already mostly dead thanks to LFE. With exception of IS light mechs I think only 2~3 mechs using IS XL engine, from 400+ mechs I have.

If you still worry about things getting obsolete, we can always make them different. Like giving IS XL massive agility boost to mechs Standard Engine getting massive heat generation quirks. And we can do this without worrying about faction balance.

You have to use standard engines if you want Heavy Gauss or side loaded builds. Standard is used way more than XL is.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 28 June 2018 - 05:29 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 28 June 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

You have to use standard engines if you want Heavy Gauss or side loaded builds. Standard is used way more than XL is.

i disagree, i think its more of a gradient,
(Light = XL & LFE) = (Medium & Heavy = XL & LFE & STD) = (Assault = LFE & STD)
not that Lights cant take STD Engines or Assaults cant Take XLs, but above is mostly what you see,

[Mechwarrior1441491]

With light engines I will never ever take an XL in a light mech. The downside does not make the KPH you get all that attractive.

The only XL I have is in my Catapult LRM mech.

Wait, I'm a liar, I think I have an XL in my Urban mech so I can run around with an AC20 and a few tons of ammo.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 28 June 2018 - 05:51 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 28 June 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

With light engines I will never ever take an XL in a light mech. The downside does not make the KPH you get all that attractive.

The downside of going much slower is that you take much more fire. But then if you are taking fire in a XL light, then you aren't playing it properly anyway.

LFE in a light... What is the world coming too. Speed is life.

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 28 June 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

The downside of going much slower is that you take much more fire. But then if you are taking fire in a XL light, then you aren't playing it properly anyway.

LFE in a light... What is the world coming too. Speed is life.

Except urbie. Those things are invulnerable, so XLs are fine.

[Vellron2005]

Mystere, on 28 June 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

Hey! You!
Yes, you!
Hide in the corner before someone notices.

No.

Nobody puts baby in the corner.

Edited by Vellron2005, 28 June 2018 - 10:59 PM.

[Toddasaurus]

The6thMessenger, on 27 June 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

Really? Undo 5 years of balancing. Sure, lets do that.

Look, I'm okay with literally starting over, i do. But if the approach is the same -- as in if PGI's approach is literally the same, like nerfing UAC10 as a whole when only Kodiak was OP, then we'll invariably go to the same mess we are headed right now.

Because that's the same approach they did before, that's what they are doing right now with them having all the data at their fingertips, that's what they are going to do after starting over.

You know the definition of insanity right? If we want to help, we need them to change how they look at things, that is what Tarogato and co. are trying to do with their Community Driven Balance.

Sure, i guess the mixed tech would mean that where we end up will be completely different. But with little understanding how players play the game, they will end up not where we need the balance to be, just as they aren't where we need the balance to be right now.

This...

Mystere, on 27 June 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

I have more "radical" ideas:

• forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. Clan drops only (i.e. no mixed teams)
  
• lore-friendly Clans and IS formations
  
• drop sizes tailored to battle at hand
  
• dump all eSports attributes outside of Solaris (i.e. we have "battles", not "matches")
  
• Clan equipment are tailored for the individual warrior, IS ones are tailored to enhance teamwork
  
• etc., etc., etc.

... considering the above statement, I agree that this is a viable solution, minus the e-sport dumping, though i understand the reason behind it.


On a personal note, though, I think having mixtech would be fun. Tons of crazy builds could be had. But, then again, I am one of those fools that thinks that clans *should* be very much OP - no quirks or nerfs should be had (at least not in their current form), movement should be based on weight vs engine size, laser durations and uac performance should be very similar between IS and clan, and balance should be had by IS outnumbering Clans in drops (ie 8 clan vs 12 IS mechs). Though this would not work very well in eSports. Even so, I think it would be fun to be in a Clan drop, being outnumbered by these low-tech IS scum and fighting to survive. And vice versa! Going in an IS drop, up against these crazy, pompous and incredibly dangerously powerful clan mechs that you cannot face alone... Both sides would need great coordination to overpower the other. I think it would be sweet. That said, take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Anyway, it's too bad ideas like the ones brought up here will never come to fruition. Even so, I still enjoy the game as it is, despite its problems.

Edited by Toddasaurus, 29 June 2018 - 12:17 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

The game does not need to follow precisely the TT rules but use them for flavor. Example, there is no reason for use the 3 engine crit/dead mech with just the loss of one side torso, especially since the rest of the rules surrounding it are not in use, ie actual engine crits that affect mechs. Nor in this FPS would it be useful for a fully functional engine crit setup since PGI would likely not make it robust enough, or so robust it most of the time it would not matter since by that time all the internal structural in several sections would already be destroyed.

And the weapons themselves were created for a boardgame. Due to their setup changing size/weight wont do but what they have been doing, damage/heat/etc is being done but not enough is being done without using quirks.

As for other components, PGI has already doubled the armor/structure from TT. They could still increase the default, as they are already doing it for many mechs with armor or structural quirks as well as available skill points.

[Novakaine]

Just plain nope.

[Agent of Change]

This idea...Really OP?.... wait no I meant, This idea...REALLY OP!

All this suggestion deserves is just a great big and emphatic

LOL NOPE!

[Mystere]

Toddasaurus, on 28 June 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

... considering the above statement, I agree that this is a viable solution, minus the e-sport dumping, though i understand the reason behind it.

Just to clarify in case you missed it, all eSports activities should be restricted only to the Solaris mode. The inherent asymmetry in my idea is going to be an issue otherwise.

Edited by Mystere, 29 June 2018 - 06:41 AM.

[Toddasaurus]

Mystere, on 29 June 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

Just to clarify in case you missed it, all eSports activities should be restricted only to the Solaris mode. The inherent asymmetry in my idea is going to be an issue otherwise.

Yeah, I gotcha. The only problem with that is that Solaris is too limited (ie 2v2, small maps, etc) to envelope the full scope of the game, which is a heavy emphasis on teamwork, in addition to other things.

In the end it doesn't really matter, as PGI won't make such a radical change - except, possibly your first point. Someday we will have Clan vs Clan in FP. That will be fun.

Edited by Toddasaurus, 29 June 2018 - 07:29 AM.

[Mystere]

Toddasaurus, on 29 June 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Yeah, I gotcha. The only problem with that is that Solaris is too limited (ie 2v2, small maps, etc) to envelope the full scope of the game, which is a heavy emphasis on teamwork, in addition to other things.

In the end it doesn't really matter, as PGI won't make such a radical change - except, possibly your first point. Someday we will have Clan vs Clan in FP. That will be fun.

Solaris needs FFA (i.e. Battle Royale).

[Christof Romulus]

No mix tech.

The following weapons would become literally extinct from the Inner Sphere due to weapons that function IDENTICALLY but simply weigh less and take up less critical slots:
AC 2/UAC2 - Replaced by C-UAC2
UAC10 - Replaced by C-UAC10
UAC20 - Replaced by C-UAC20
Small Laser / ER Small Laser - Replaced by BOTH C-Er Small Laser and C-Micro Lasers
Small Pulse Laser - Replaced by C-Small Pulse Laser
Light Machine Gun / Machine Gun / Heavy Machine gun - Replaced by Clan versions
LB 2-X, 5-X, 10-X, 20-X AC - Replaced by Clan versions
Gauss Rifle - Replaced by C-Gauss Rifle
Flamer - Replaced by C-Flamer
TAG - Replaced by BOTH C-Tag and Light Tag
Laser AMS - Replaced by C-Laser AMS
ER Medium Laser - Replaced by the best weapon in the game (Clan ER Medium Laser)
LRMs - Replaced by Clan LRMs that weight 50%
Streak SRM 2/4/6 - Replaced by Clan versions

The following equipment would become extinct:
Double Heatsink - Replaced by C-Double Heatsink
BAP - Replaced by BOTH Clan Active Probe, and Light Active Probe
Endo Steel / Ferro Fibrous - Replaced by clearly superior Clan versions
Inner Sphere XL Engines / Light Fusion Engines - Replaced by the best engine type in the game
ECM - Noticing a trend here yet?
C.A.S.E. - C'mon. Literally invisible technology for all Clan mechs.
[Edit]: Targeting Computer 1 - 7 - Thought these would stay, but turns out Clan tech is just better... I know, I'm shocked to find this out too! /sarcasm

The following technology from the Inner Sphere MAY find LIMITED use:
UAC 5 - A superior version of the C-UAC 5
AC 10 - 10 damage pinpoint may find its way into a niche build.
AC 20 - 20 damage pinpoint with no charge time may find its way into niche builds.
RAC 2 / RAC 5 - Unique technology (for now) to the Inner Sphere may find its way onto clan mechs
MRM 10/20/30/40 - Unique technology (for now) to the Inner Sphere may find its way onto clan mechs
SRM 2/4/6 - Clan SRMs spread far more than Inner Sphere versions, but weigh 50%. I don't see either version disappearing in a Mix-Tech environment.
Large Laser / ER Large Laser - Would become nearly extinct (since the C-ER Medium does almost the same damage at 1/5th weight) but could find their way onto some mechs.
Medium Laser - It just MAY be used in a Mix-Tech environment... though if Clanners wanted to use this kind of weapon they REALLY should take a peek at the C-ER Small laser...
All PPCs - Every PPC fills a niche, even stacked against the Clan ER-PPC.
Heavy Gauss - Unique technology to the Inner Sphere would nearly never find its way onto Clan mechs due to Clan XL weight savings, but would not be extinct.
[Edit] Inner Sphere Targeting Computer 8 - Turns out only the Inner Sphere can get a MK 8 TC and it's just a pinch better than the Clan's MK 7.

The ONLY Technology from Clan that would actually disappear:
[Edit] I mistakenly thought Inner Sphere had an edge. I was corrected below - no edge exists.

So, in reality a "Mixed-Technology" base would be the extinction of nearly every single Inner Sphere system in the game.

Edited by Christof Romulus, 04 July 2018 - 09:02 AM.

[Tesunie]

Imma gonna just say "no". For many of the reasons already presented here, and in other threads.

[FupDup]

Christof Romulus, on 03 July 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Small Laser / ER Small Laser - Replaced by BOTH C-Er Small Laser and C-Micro Lasers

Nobody in their right mind would put Micro Lasers on an IS mech. Hardly anybody even does it on hardpoint-abundant Clan mechs. If even mechs like the Nova can't make good use of Micros, no IS mech can either.

Christof Romulus, on 03 July 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

The ONLY Technology from Clan that would actually disappear:
Clan Targeting Computers - Replaced by the miraculously superior Inner Sphere versions.

The only "superior" IS TC is the TC8, which costs an arm and a leg. Every TC from 1 to 7 is superior on the Clan side.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 28 June 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

Hey! You!
Yes, you!
Hide in the corner before someone notices.

Wut?

[Christof Romulus]

FupDup, on 03 July 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

Nobody in their right mind would put Micro Lasers on an IS mech. Hardly anybody even does it on hardpoint-abundant Clan mechs. If even mechs like the Nova can't make good use of Micros, no IS mech can either.


The only "superior" IS TC is the TC8, which costs an arm and a leg. Every TC from 1 to 7 is superior on the Clan side.

Clan ER Micro Laser VS Inner Sphere Small Laser IS Difference
.25 Tons .5 tons Double weight
1 critical slot 1 critical slot ---
2.4 damage 3.25 damage 35% more damage
1.35 heat 1.1 heat ~20% cooler
2.25 cooldown 2.25 cooldown ---
.75 duration .75 duration ---
300 max range 300 max range ---
150 effective range 150 effective range ---

You're going to sit here and tell me that Inner Sphere light mechs that struggle for every ounce of weight on their mechs wouldn't use a weapon system that is functionally identical but half the weight?

As for targeting computers, I have updated my post accordingly.

[FupDup]

Christof Romulus, on 04 July 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Clan ER Micro Laser VS Inner Sphere Small Laser IS Difference
.25 Tons .5 tons Double weight
1 critical slot 1 critical slot ---
2.4 damage 3.25 damage 35% more damage
1.35 heat 1.1 heat ~20% cooler
2.25 cooldown 2.25 cooldown ---
.75 duration .75 duration ---
300 max range 300 max range ---
150 effective range 150 effective range ---

You're going to sit here and tell me that Inner Sphere light mechs that struggle for every ounce of weight on their mechs wouldn't use a weapon system that is functionally identical but half the weight?

Given that the IS SL hardly does enough damage to justify mounting, yeah the Clan ER Micro would have an even harder time reaching that threshold of "minimum viable damage output" given that IS mechs tend to be short on hardpoints compared to their Clam overlords. Hardpoint efficiency is an attribute that gets overlooked a lot, even after the advent of MRMs (40 damage per hardpoint is pretty kewl).

Also the heat savings are nice, especially given that lights aren't usually able to boat DHS like a bigger chassis.

[Appogee]

Hell no.

No.

No.