141 replies to this topic

[KoalaBrownie]

S O L A I S, on 05 July 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

You are also missing the point, the game can be ended easily. One of the many reasons the mode is so unpopular.

Any game mode can be ended easily if the enemy doesn't respond to what you're doing. I've capped bases with friends in Assault before more than a couple mechs were killed combined. We've won domination when the enemy team just didn't enter the circle.

If the VIP is easy to kill, get in front of it so they have to shoot you instead. Or get in a position to destroy an enemy if they ignore your attacks and fire on the VIP

Quxudica, on 05 July 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

Which leads into; If players could actively choose the modes they play, and most of those thousands of players are avoiding one mode in particular; then that mode is the problem.

Just because people avoid a thing doesn't make it a problem. and just because people actively seek something out doesn't mean it's not a problem. Customers don't know what's good for them or for the game they're playing because their experience is incredibly narrow compared to the overall scope.

You yourself said you lost faith in the company that makes this games years ago, yet here you are. By your own logic, this game and PGI's "minimal effort" style aren't problems because you aren't avoiding playing this game.

Quxudica, on 05 July 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

I'd wager most of the player base would love a mode with real objectives that are more than just "kill everything", myself absolutely included.

Pretty sure I've read on the forums that missions used to be more objective-based and players didn't like it. I've been in Assault games where we've capped base before a handful of kills took place and players complained, I've also been in games like Conquest where someone tells everyone to avoid capping and just fight. The Battletech boardgame doesn't even have objectives, it's just take a lance and throw down- ironic that the video game 30 years later is in many ways the same thing and the players like it that way.

SFC174, on 05 July 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

Prove your assertion hypocrite. lol.

The phrase "they would probably change it" means I'm presenting a theory, not a fact. Theories are by definition unproven Asking me for proof is only telling me you don't understand what I wrote. Hopefully it's clear for you now

Or if you're asking for proof that PGI uses metrics, here it is:

Quote

We have a large amount of match / ‘Mech metrics that we track across the entire game through Quickplay, Faction Play, and Private Matches. We utilize the data in these metrics to track trends in ‘Mech performance that includes, but is not limited to, average match score, Kill / Death ratio, Win / Loss ratio, Average damage, ‘Mech loadouts, average match earnings, etc. We then focus on data around Tier 1 and Tier 2 metrics to compile an expected performance curve that we track along a per weight class level which creates an overall “range” that we like to keep the ‘Mechs operating within to ensure that ‘Mechs of similar tonnage / weight classes remain relatively even choices against other ‘Mechs within their respective weight brackets . . . Even the tiniest weapon change has a projected result that we are looking for when it gets pushed live. And no matter what we push, we are always monitoring how the net result affected actual match metrics.(emphasis mine)

https://mrbcleague.c...php?storyid=240

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 05 July 2018 - 07:39 PM.

[Bombast]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 05 July 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

Give the drop commander options to give the VIP coordinates, so, there are multiple paths that it can go. It does have the option of actually needing "information warfare." Light mechs relaying information so drop commander can decide which route to direct the VIP.

I suspect that after a week of a player controlled VIP, we'll all be begging for the AI pathfinding to come back.

[S O L A I S]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 July 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

Any game mode can be ended easily if the enemy doesn't respond to what you're doing. I've capped bases with friends in Assault before more than a couple mechs were killed combined. We've won domination when the enemy team just didn't enter the circle.

If the VIP is easy to kill, get in front of it so they have to shoot you instead. Or get in a position to destroy an enemy if they ignore your attacks and fire on the VIP

It's hilarious that you think people don't know what to do. Again you are missing the point. Games that are ended quickly are games that people don't get to shoot mechs. That has been a long standing gripe with PGI modes. Going to stand in a box or shoot a target that doesn't shoot back is not what most people consider fun.

[KoalaBrownie]

S O L A I S, on 05 July 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

It's hilarious that you think people don't know what to do.

Knowing what to do and actually doing it are two different things. In a game where one's top priority is inflicting damage and self-preservation, deliberately taking shots for an AI robot is a relatively foreign concept.

S O L A I S, on 05 July 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

Again you are missing the point. Games that are ended quickly are games that people don't get to shoot mechs. That has been a long standing gripe with PGI modes. Going to stand in a box or shoot a target that doesn't shoot back is not what most people consider fun.

Are you claiming that objective-based gameplay does not exist in other popular games like Halo or the Battlefield franchises? Carrying a flag from one base to another is an action which does not involve shooting other players, but its an action taking place in an environment where shooting other players and getting shot in return can certainly happen. Similarly capturing control points to reduce enemy ticket count is standing in a box, but it takes place in an environment where you can shoot and be shot.

The same is true of MWO where mechs stand in boxes, or you shoot at an AI mech. Those take place in environments where other mechs can shoot you and you can shoot them.

Now if you believe the game mode is unbalanced, that's another thing.
People in this thread keep saying how the attackers in Escort have an advantage of positioning. No one's saying that the defenders have an advantage of an extra man that can soak up a great deal of enemy weapons fire. Whether you think it can soak up enough enemy fire or not is a balance issue, not a fundamental flaw of the game mode.

To be more balanced, the AI mech's armour really should dynamically adjust pre-game based on the weaponry of the enemy team.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 05 July 2018 - 10:03 PM.

[S O L A I S]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 July 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Knowing what to do and actually doing it are two different things. In a game where one's top priority is inflicting damage and self-preservation, deliberately taking shots for an AI robot is a relatively foreign concept.



Are you claiming that objective-based gameplay does not exist in other popular games like Halo or the Battlefield franchises? Carrying a flag from one base to another is an action which does not involve shooting other players, but its an action taking place in an environment where shooting other players and getting shot in return can certainly happen. Similarly capturing control points to reduce enemy ticket count is standing in a box, but it takes place in an environment where you can shoot and be shot.

The same is true of MWO where mechs stand in boxes, or you shoot at an AI mech. Those take place in environments where other mechs can shoot you and you can shoot them.

Now if you believe the game mode is unbalanced, that's another thing.
People in this thread keep saying how the attackers in Escort have an advantage of positioning. No one's saying that the defenders have an advantage of an extra man that can soak up a great deal of enemy weapons fire. Whether you think it can soak up enough enemy fire or not is a balance issue, not a fundamental flaw of the game mode.

To be more balanced, the AI mech's armour really should dynamically adjust pre-game based on the weaponry of the enemy team.

I am not talking about objectives in other games. I am talking about this game. I hate Polar, and whenever I got Polar assault I would run and immediately cap base to get off the map as quickly as possible. People would lose their minds at me for doing this. Got a couple of giggles but I stopped doing this as I don't find it fun to intentionally do stuff to aggravate other people.

As far as the mode being unbalanced...who cares? It is a terrible mode that is the least popular in the game. Like I pointed out you can use your own stats to get a very good idea of how unpopular and unliked it is.

What was great fun though was a match on Frozen City where I ended up being the last guy alive and instead of finishing off the Atlas I stated I was not comfortable shooting VIP as he was an enemy noncombatant. Of coarse that is something I did once and would not do again but still, it was hilarious.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 July 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

People in this thread keep saying how the attackers in Escort have an advantage of positioning. No one's saying that the defenders have an advantage of an extra man that can soak up a great deal of enemy weapons fire. Whether you think it can soak up enough enemy fire or not is a balance issue, not a fundamental flaw of the game mode.

That's because positioning beats out armor every single time. As does initiative.

Of course, not all the maps are in the attackers favor. Grim Plexus is heavily in the defenders favor if their lights aren't stupid.

In anycase, no amount of armor will fix the fact that the maps simply aren't made for escort. And that MWO's game systems aren't favorable to the concept. Nor that Escort, as a concept, is famously hated in the entire video game community.

Edited by Bombast, 05 July 2018 - 10:37 PM.

[KoalaBrownie]

Bombast, on 05 July 2018 - 10:34 PM, said:

In anycase, no amount of armor will fix the fact that the maps simply aren't made for escort.

Describe the characteristics of a map that you believe would be best suited for escort.

S O L A I S, on 05 July 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

I am not talking about objectives in other games. I am talking about this game.

Ignoring more evidence contrary to your statements? At least you're consistent.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 July 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:

Describe the characteristics of a map that you believe would be best suited for escort.

I can't, really, not in a game like MWO. Like I said only a sentence later, MWO's gameplay simply isn't compatable with a mode that's pretty bad even in games that put actual effort into it.

I can tell you what makes a map bad for escort though. One where you'd forced into one of two very badly considered paths (Crimson). Or one where a single sensor node determines the majority of the fight (Grim Plexus). Or one where it's virtually impossible to form a defensive like because the terrain is such a broken mess (Rubillite).

Here's a question for you - Name one map in MWO where Escort provides gameplay superior to all other game modes provided. Provide the metrics that lead you to this choice and defend it.

[KoalaBrownie]

Bombast, on 05 July 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

I can't, really, not in a game like MWO. Like I said only a sentence later, MWO's gameplay simply isn't compatable with a mode that's pretty bad even in games that put actual effort into it.

I can tell you what makes a map bad for escort though. One where you'd forced into one of two very badly considered paths (Crimson). Or one where a single sensor node determines the majority of the fight (Grim Plexus). Or one where it's virtually impossible to form a defensive like because the terrain is such a broken mess (Rubillite).

If you don't know what makes a good map, how can you claim to know what makes a bad map?

Bombast, on 05 July 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

Here's a question for you - Name one map in MWO where Escort provides gameplay superior to all other game modes provided. Provide the metrics that lead you to this choice and defend it.

I asked you a reasonable question that you apparently don't have the knowledge to answer, your response is to ask an unreasonable question that you know is impossible to answer.

I have to ask are you in this discussion in good faith? Open to ideas and possibilities? Or is your secret goal to say that I'm wrong no matter the topic or point of discussion? If it's the latter, then please quit wasting my time.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 06 July 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 06 July 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

If you don't know what makes a good map, how can you claim to know what makes a bad map?

I couldn't for the life of me tell you how to be a professional masseuse, but I know rapping someone in the nuts with your knuckles while giving them a massage is not how you succeed at that job.

Quote

I asked you a reasonable question that you apparently don't have the knowledge to answer, your response is to ask an unreasonable question that you know is impossible to answer.

I have to ask are you in this discussion in good faith? Open to ideas and possibilities? Or is your secret goal to say that I'm wrong no matter the topic or point of discussion? If it's the latter, then please quit wasting my time.

So you don't know of a single map where Escort is superior to any other mode. What about a map where Escort is good? Can you give me a map that has an acceptable Escort mode and explain why?

Edited by Bombast, 06 July 2018 - 09:57 AM.

[KoalaBrownie]

Bombast, on 06 July 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

I couldn't for the life of me tell you how to be a professional masseuse, but I know rapping someone in the nuts with your knuckles while giving them a massage is not how you succeed at that job.

Points is you don't know. You feel you had a bad experience on a particular map, but like most players you don't know why. That's why game developers don't just ask players what they thought of a game, they observe them playing the game, because players can't articulate why something didn't work for them and they very often don't know how to fix it. Metrics and heat maps allow developers to observe player movements, match outcomes, on a much larger scale than any one player.

That data is probably why some of the domination circles have changed in the past few years (like on Plexus)

Bombast, on 06 July 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

So you don't know of a single map where Escort is superior to any other mode. What about a map where Escort is good? Can you give me a map that has an acceptable Escort mode and explain why?

Any map with rolling terrain which breaks LOS and provides opportunities to flank defending or attacking forces is good imo.

Maps with obvious choke points which are not easily bypassed (takes too long to flank around) or an abundance of exposed flat terrain in view of superior positions that are not easily flanked (River City, Alpine Peaks) are not very good. But I don't think those maps are good in ANY mode.


In general, a key to winning any game is achieving local superiority. It's not about creating a firing line, it's about having more of your units firing on less of their units at any given time. If you have two mechs attacking a mech out in the open while his two assault friends are behind a hill, out of sight, it doesn't matter that you're outnumbered 3 to 2 in that area, it matters that you have two mechs firing on their one. If a map is completely flat and allows 12 vs 12 firing or 12 vs 1 like some areas of Alpine Peaks, it's not a very good map imo.

And for maps which fall under my definition of good, it's not just about one side having an advantage in a given situation. It's about how you play the game. Yesterday I played on Frozen City, both teams decided that they they were going to sit by their base and play a sniper war for the entire match. One or two guys maybe tried to run across the river and got taken out but either way, at the end of the match my team got wrecked and everyone was salty at each-other except for me. I had a short range mech, a Catapult with a HGR and instead of participating in a battle I couldn't win I flanked around and took out two enemy mechs pretty much on my own (CN9 joined me at one point). And some of the people in that match, were complaining that Frozen City used to be about brawling and how the map got ruined- and meanwhile I'm in a brawling mech, getting the only two kills of the match because I didn't care what the map was I went around, under cover and played to my advantages.

So for a lot of situations, people saying "Team X has a superior position, waaa" then FLANK them. Go around, shoot them from the side or the rear where they have no cover. Someone referenced some videos of Col Oneil in Escort having his way with the VIP. If I was in that game, he probably would've got 2 AC/20s in the back or a couple of Gauss rifles into his side. Don't react, but act, and make them react in turn. That's how you have the initiative. Not by trundling alongside the VIP and waiting for doom & gloom.

Initiative is about acting. If the enemy team is WAITING for you, they've already CONCEDED initiative. The worst thing you can do, is in turn wait for you to reach them.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 06 July 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 06 July 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Points is you don't know. You feel you had a bad experience on a particular map, but like most players you don't know why. That's why game developers don't just ask players what they thought of a game, they observe them playing the game, because players can't articulate why something didn't work for them and they very often don't know how to fix it. Metrics and heat maps allow developers to observe player movements, match outcomes, on a much larger scale than any one player.

That data is probably why some of the domination circles have changed in the past few years (like on Plexus)

Horseshit. Plexus got changed because critical opinion and player rage got to the point where they had to do something. The inbalance was obvious since the circle was placed, and players were able to tell PGI how to fix it.

You know why people can't tell you how to make Escort good in MWO? Because it's not possible. Escort has been a **** video game idea since it was introduced decades ago, and few games make them work. In a multiplayer game, it's even worse. There's probably only one type of Escort that works, and it was popularized by Team Fortress - The cart push. Where an invincible object is pushed on a static rail in two directions.

It wouldn't work in MWO, as the gameplay simply doesn't support it. No respawns, engagement ranges are too long, and the maps aren't set up for it.

Quote

Maps with obvious choke points which are not easily bypassed (takes too long to flank around) or an abundance of exposed flat terrain in view of superior positions that are not easily flanked (River City, Alpine Peaks) are not very good. But I don't think those maps are good in ANY mode.

So you can't name a single map where Escort is good?

[KoalaBrownie]

Bombast, on 06 July 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

You know why people can't tell you how to make Escort good in MWO? Because it's not possible. Escort has been a **** video game idea since it was introduced decades ago, and few games make them work. In a multiplayer game, it's even worse. There's probably only one type of Escort that works, and it was popularized by Team Fortress - The cart push. Where an invincible object is pushed on a static rail in two directions.

That's not Escort it's Tug-of-War

Either way, you're over-stating the problem. Escort is about keeping a unit alive between its starting waypoint, and it's end waypoint. It's not rocket science. And most Starship combat games like Freespace, X-Wing are chock-full of escort missing where you need to protect ships, both tough and fragile, from enemy fighters in an environment where there is no terrain. Works fine there dude even if those missions are sometimes more challenging and even if that is a largely dead genre.

Bombast, on 06 July 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

So you can't name a single map where Escort is good?

Tourmaline, Plexus, Polar. etcetera. Didn't think it would be hard to think of maps that fit the description I'd outlined.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 06 July 2018 - 11:48 AM.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 06 July 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

Either way, you're over-stating the problem. Escort is about keeping a unit alive between its starting waypoint, and it's end waypoint. It's not rocket science. And most Starship combat games like Freespace, X-Wing are chock-full of escort missing where you need to protect ships, both tough and fragile, from enemy fighters in an environment where there is no terrain. Works fine there dude even if those missions are sometimes more challenging and even if that is a largely dead genre.

Your best defense of escort in MWO is light flight sims? Even if those were good (I think you'll find quite a few people who don't agree with you), that's weak to the point of uselessness.

Quote

Tourmaline, Plexus, Polar. etcetera. Didn't think it would be hard to think of maps that fit the description I'd outlined.

Are you kidding? Plexus is a horrid mess for Escort - The only thing worse was old Domination. Tourmaline is only tolerable because its one of the few maps where combat tends to outpace the VIP, and it's faint praise to say its ok because the VIP barely matters. And Polar... seriously? I don't even know what to say to that. It's like someone claiming the Sun is green.

[Navid A1]

I seriously thought this thread was a troll.

But no, it was serious!!!

Hey OP, I would tell you what I think about your opinion, but that would probably get me banned... so.. yeah.

Escort... the most broken game mode in history, needs more frequency?
No, and I don't wanna know in what potato-fest people enjoy that crap.

Edited by Navid A1, 06 July 2018 - 12:19 PM.

[S O L A I S]

KoalaBrownie, on 05 July 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:

Ignoring more evidence contrary to your statements? At least you're consistent.

You think mentioning objectives in other games is evidence? Same for you consistency wise it seems.

[KoalaBrownie]

S O L A I S, on 07 July 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

You think mentioning objectives in other games is evidence?

Evidence of what gamers enjoy doing in a video game? Yes. You said "most people" after all, not "most players of MWO". Or do you believe that Mechwarrior Online or Mechwarrior in general has nothing to learn from other video games?

Successful games and companies look at what other people are doing to inform their own design and business model. That's why there are events like the Game Developers Conference, where no doubt Piranha Games employees attend to learn from other developers and where Piranha has in turn given talks on their own experiences: Such as this talk by Karl Berg, a senior systems engineer.

https://www.gdcvault...in-Asynchronous
(video locked behind Vault subscription, just PP slides available to view)

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 07 July 2018 - 10:18 PM.

[S O L A I S]

KoalaBrownie, on 07 July 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

Evidence of what gamers enjoy doing in a video game? Yes. You said "most people" after all, not "most players of MWO". Or do you believe that Mechwarrior Online or Mechwarrior in general has nothing to learn from other video games?

Successful games and companies look at what other people are doing to inform their own design and business model. That's why there are events like the Game Developers Conference, where no doubt Piranha Games employees attend to learn from other developers and where Piranha has in turn given talks on their own experiences: Such as this talk by Karl Berg, a senior systems engineer.

https://www.gdcvault...in-Asynchronous
(video locked behind Vault subscription, just PP slides available to view)

Now you are playing the semantics game. As well you saying others like this or that from other games is not evidence and the onus would be on you to show if it is even applicable which is unlikely due to the uniqueness of this particular game.

You also completely ignore that I have mentioned to you that you can see how unpopular the mode is just by checking your own stats as I did my own. I checked multiple accounts as well as asking a couple of people I know and the results are consistent across the board that Escort is unpopular and that in of itself means the majority of players don't like to play it.

So you can continue to dance around and twist but it will not work. The mode in this game is very unpopular. Due to our system of letting people get a bump through the multiplier system and it becomes clear how unpopular and how most people like every single other mode, including incursion more.

It is quite hilarious though that you start a thread about increasing an unpopular and hated mode's frequency and then want to argue (poorly) about it's unpopularity. There's a pretty large disconnect here.

[KoalaBrownie]

S O L A I S, on 07 July 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

Now you are playing the semantics game. As well you saying others like this or that from other games is not evidence and the onus would be on you to show if it is even applicable which is unlikely due to the uniqueness of this particular game.

Semantics game? Dude don't blame me for you being vague with highly generalized statements.

S O L A I S, on 07 July 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

You also completely ignore that I have mentioned to you that you can see how unpopular the mode is just by checking your own stats as I did my own. I checked multiple accounts as well as asking a couple of people I know and the results are consistent across the board that Escort is unpopular and that in of itself means the majority of players don't like to play it.

Stats are irrelevant for popularity.
The popularity of game modes can only be judged if all game modes occur at the same frequency. You can only judge Escort compared to the second game mode that it is being matches against for that particular game. Something which is not tracked in stats.

Also stats are from the whole account, which includes time prior to Escort being introduced.

S O L A I S, on 07 July 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

So you can continue to dance around and twist but it will not work. The mode in this game is very unpopular. Due to our system of letting people get a bump through the multiplier system and it becomes clear how unpopular and how most people like every single other mode, including incursion more.

Bunch of statements you can't prove. Par for the course.

S O L A I S, on 07 July 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

It is quite hilarious though that you start a thread about increasing an unpopular and hated mode's frequency and then want to argue (poorly) about it's unpopularity. There's a pretty large disconnect here.

Dude your only response to factual evidence is to ignore it. You literally have no argument except to make sweeping and wholly unsupported claims and you accuse me of having a poor argument?

Hilarious dude.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 07 July 2018 - 11:07 PM.

[Bombast]

KoalaBrownie, on 07 July 2018 - 11:06 PM, said:

Stats are irrelevant for popularity.
The popularity of game modes can only be judged if all game modes occur at the same frequency. You can only judge Escort compared to the second game mode that it is being matches against for that particular game. Something which is not tracked in stats.

...What? Are you claiming that people refusing to vote for Escort may actually love it?