463 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

OZHomerOZ, on 17 February 2019 - 08:42 PM, said:

Most assualts are a lot worse

He lived moar than 30 seconds (Doh positioning)

At least stalled for time

Aye, he actually knew how to spread the damage and make sure I could not get a clean shot at his backside.

GeminiWolf, on 17 February 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

I scream NERF DARIAN DELFORD!

Wait till you see tomorrow's vid.... its tittles. "Go Go Gadget Alpha Lance!"

[PhoenixFire55]

Angel of Annihilation, on 17 February 2019 - 04:05 PM, said:

Got to Mechdb, input your favorite OP build and you will soon see that your sustain on most Assaults is about 8-10 DPS. Keep in mind that DPS is a running total, DPS doesn't stop just because you stopped firing in order to cool down your mech. Mechdb'd DPS calculations taking cooling into account. Assaults may be able to burst 20+ DPS but they aren't sustaining that. The PIR-1 on the other hand sustains that DPS and is only limited by the amount of ammo it is carrying.

I don't get it ... If a huge amount of MGs and micro lasers are so vastly powerful and puts out so much DPS ... why don't you strap some 8MGs and a dozen lasors on a Dire and go totally wreck ****? Should have way more DPS than a Piranha since it can pack 20 extra heat sinks and a dozen tons of ammo.

[Battlemaster56]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

I don't get it ... If a huge amount of MGs and micro lasers are so vastly powerful and puts out so much DPS ... why don't you strap some 8MGs and a dozen lasors on a Dire and go totally wreck ****? Should have way more DPS than a Piranha since it can pack 20 extra heat sinks and a dozen tons of ammo.

A inefficient build on a slow gun platform, and would be ripped apart before it even get into range to do anything, even if you do somehow get into range mechs that can better use those weapons or superior brawling weapons i that class will leaving gaping as the size of Jupiter. I would use a micro laser build on a Nova or Gargoyle since they are able get into a fight quick enough and out brawl nearly anything in it range bracket.

[Horseman]

Darian DelFord, on 17 February 2019 - 04:30 PM, said:

Again just out of curiosity....
How much DPS do you as an assault need to kill a 20 ton mech with no structure quirks?

It's spelled "One alpha on target". Been there in Solaris with a Cyclops vs a Piranha. I guessed right the direction he would be coming from, one shot... his entire torso disintegrated.

[Curccu]

Darian DelFord, on 17 February 2019 - 04:30 PM, said:

Again just out of curiosity.... How much DPS do you as an assault need to kill a 20 ton mech with no structure quirks?

∞

If pilot isn't good enough.

[PhoenixFire55]

Battlemaster56, on 18 February 2019 - 02:05 AM, said:

A inefficient build on a slow gun platform, and would be ripped apart before it even get into range to do anything, even if you do somehow get into range mechs that can better use those weapons or superior brawling weapons i that class will leaving gaping as the size of Jupiter. I would use a micro laser build on a Nova or Gargoyle since they are able get into a fight quick enough and out brawl nearly anything in it range bracket.

A day may come when men will understand sarcasm, but it is not this day.

[Battlemaster56]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2019 - 02:46 AM, said:

A day may come when men will understand sarcasm, but it is not this day.

Yea sorry couldn't hear it coming from my screen.

Next time I'll pick it up. /s

[Darian DelFord]

Horseman, on 18 February 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

It's spelled "One alpha on target". Been there in Solaris with a Cyclops vs a Piranha. I guessed right the direction he would be coming from, one shot... his entire torso disintegrated.

Exactly my point. One shot and most lights explode, you just have to be able to hit them. Can't use the excuse of lag shield any more.

[Jman5]

Darian DelFord, on 17 February 2019 - 05:58 PM, said:

Yup and to illustrate the point a bit.

forward to 2:00 in the below video. 3k rounds of ammo with 0 misses and i did a whopping 327 points of damage.

Yes I know he had inflated armor, but this goes to show just how utterly worthless MG's are against armor.

Fun fact: The dreaded crit bonus did a whole 22 extra damage and saved you less than 2 seconds or about 7% of the total fight time. Would be even lower if that locust hadn't helped you burn through a big chunk of that armor.

Edited by Jman5, 18 February 2019 - 08:56 AM.

[YueFei]

Darian DelFord, on 18 February 2019 - 04:17 AM, said:

Exactly my point. One shot and most lights explode, you just have to be able to hit them. Can't use the excuse of lag shield any more.

People also often forget about the range aspect of things. Larger mechs tend to carry weapons that give them more range to work with, but this advantage is not fully understood by some players.

Imagine if you knew the enemy team had no mechs with long range weapons? Your entire team could blatantly stand on top of a ridgeline or a hill with fantastic lines of sight across large swaths of the map. Good luck to any Light mech trying to cross all that open space to get into range.

From this thought experiment it's clear that it's the threat and pressure of enemy mechs with long range weapons that forces you to be honest and use cover, because line-of-sight is a double-edged sword. You can't just stand around out in the open getting poked at from multiple angles. You're forced to use cover, and this blocks your lines of sight, as well as that of your teammates, creating "shadows". These are regions that enemy mechs (such as Lights) can then use to bound up and close the distance.

So when a Light mech appears suddenly at close range, seemingly pouncing out of nowhere, it's because of other enemy mechs herding them into cover, creating that opportunity for the enemy Lights. But a lot of people don't perceive this, they don't realize that this is the reason they weren't able to spot the Lights coming in time. It's not that Lights are OP, it's just teamwork.

Edited by YueFei, 18 February 2019 - 08:58 AM.

[InspectorG]

YueFei, on 18 February 2019 - 08:57 AM, said:

People also often forget about the range aspect of things. Larger mechs tend to carry weapons that give them more range to work with, but this advantage is not fully understood by some players.

Imagine if you knew the enemy team had no mechs with long range weapons? Your entire team could blatantly stand on top of a ridgeline or a hill with fantastic lines of sight across large swaths of the map. Good luck to any Light mech trying to cross all that open space to get into range.

From this thought experiment it's clear that it's the threat and pressure of enemy mechs with long range weapons that forces you to be honest and use cover, because line-of-sight is a double-edged sword. You can't just stand around out in the open getting poked at from multiple angles. You're forced to use cover, and this blocks your lines of sight, as well as that of your teammates, creating "shadows". These are regions that enemy mechs (such as Lights) can then use to bound up and close the distance.

So when a Light mech appears suddenly at close range, seemingly pouncing out of nowhere, it's because of other enemy mechs herding them into cover, creating that opportunity for the enemy Lights. But a lot of people don't perceive this, they don't realize that this is the reason they weren't able to spot the Lights coming in time. It's not that Lights are OP, it's just teamwork.

Wait...

Are you saying there is...Skill...involved in piloting OP MG Lights?

Be careful. You say the 'S' word around here, you may get banned...

[Darian DelFord]

Jman5, on 18 February 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

Fun fact: The dreaded crit bonus did a whole 22 extra damage and saved you less than 2 seconds or about 7% of the total fight time. Would be even lower if that locust hadn't helped you burn through a big chunk of that armor.

Yup so, that leads one to believe that skill vs skill even vs even, the Piranha should be toast against most assaults. I say most, because some (just a few) have horrible torso twist.... DW and Stalker mainly.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Darian DelFord, on 17 February 2019 - 04:30 PM, said:

Again just out of curiosity....

How much DPS do you as an assault need to kill a 20 ton mech with no structure quirks?

No to much if he is standing still letting me fire at him but usually they are running 145 kph or faster and attempting to evade you shooting at them or is this a different experience for you? Of course some times they do just stand still...with their face in you crotch...where you can't hit them with any of your weapons. Doesn't take long for 12 DPS to core you out when those MGs are kicking you in the nuts.

Seriously though I know your trying to be funny or I hope you are anyway, but its pretty common knowledge that lights are relatively hard to hit when they are being evasive and in most cases unless your lucky, you end up just grazing a light mech for a few damage, here and there, when they are zipping about. I mean I would expect everyone has seen a Locust, Flea, Piranha, etc zig-zaging in and out of your entire team, seemingly immune to the fact that 6-8 mechs are trying to take him out. Also when solo any decent light pilot is typically going to be used his enhanced speed and mobility to keep at your back and keep you from being able to engage him if your piloting a slower, less agile mech. At that point your relying on the light pilot to make a mistake that you can capitalize on in order to make a solid hit.

On the other hand your examples are only valid when you have a completely unobstructed view of the enemy light and they are standing completely motionless within range of your full alpha. Sure, then you have a point, but lets try to be realistic here and talk about what really happens in a match.

And again, I am not advocating nerfing the mech, I just want MGs reigned in to something appropriate and reasonable, If the PIR or any other mech that is reliant on MGs can't be competitive after the MG nerf, then buff the mechs individually until they can.

[Darian DelFord]

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

No to much if he is standing still letting me fire at him but usually they are running 145 kph or faster and attempting to evade you shooting at them or is this a different experience for you? Of course some times they do just stand still...with their face in you crotch...where you can't hit them with any of your weapons. Doesn't take long for 12 DPS to core you out when those MGs are kicking you in the nuts.

Seriously though I know your trying to be funny or I hope you are anyway, but its pretty common knowledge that lights are relatively hard to hit when they are being evasive and in most cases unless your lucky, you end up just grazing a light mech for a few damage, here and there, when they are zipping about. I mean I would expect everyone has seen a Locust, Flea, Piranha, etc zig-zaging in and out of your entire team, seemingly immune to the fact that 6-8 mechs are trying to take him out. Also when solo any decent light pilot is typically going to be used his enhanced speed and mobility to keep at your back and keep you from being able to engage him if your piloting a slower, less agile mech. At that point your relying on the light pilot to make a mistake that you can capitalize on in order to make a solid hit.

On the other hand your examples are only valid when you have a completely unobstructed view of the enemy light and they are standing completely motionless within range of your full alpha. Sure, then you have a point, but lets try to be realistic here and talk about what really happens in a match.

And again, I am not advocating nerfing the mech, I just want MGs reigned in to something appropriate and reasonable, If the PIR or any other mech that is reliant on MGs can't be competitive after the MG nerf, then buff the mechs individually until they can.

Here is my whole issue with this.

1. For any light mech to get within 150 meters of you (No ECM) they have to be damn lucky or taken the long way around. On some of these maps its damn near impossible to get behind a mech without the enemy team knowing your there.

2. It takes 1 alpha from any medium heavy or assault mech to basically kill the light if not cripple them.

3. It takes 3 to 4 "grazes" of the 60+ point alpha's out there to kill a light mech.

4. The problem, is and the main reason that lights have been nerfed into the ground is people think this is a SOLO game. It is not. It is designed for your teammates to cover your six. I agree this is tough in QP but the other modes..... no

5. Lights have been nerfed so much that we seriously only have 2 or 4 variants that have a chance of doing any real damage and any real impact. I mean seriously.... how many sub 200 lights do you see EVERY SINGLE GAME!

6. If the MG's are taken away from the PIR then it will be just another mech. Honestly they don't bother me at all. Its the damn Pir 2 and 3 that scare me. People just use the PIR 1 because everyone is scared of the thing, turn their back and expose their 1 rear CT armor to the 12 MG's.

7. The problem is Heaies and Assaults think they should be able to solo every damn mech in the game.


You want to kill a PIR 1 this is how you do it





Team Work!

Edited by Darian DelFord, 18 February 2019 - 01:32 PM.

[General Solo]

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

............... its pretty common knowledge that lights are relatively hard to hit when they are being evasive......

If this wasn't so they'd be less viable than now.
Least used weight class and all
And it balances the risk of being one shot

Seems fair

[RickySpanish]

If you die to a Light in an Assault, let's be honest: You 100% deserved it. You were out of position, or you didn't call for help, or you couldn't aim, it's going to be for one or all of those reasons. There are many, many ways to deal with Light 'Mechs and it's about damned time the developers stop catering to players that categorically refuse to use the tools at their disposal to play the game. These guys will always screw up, blame everyone but themselves and then come and whine on the forums, or at Mechconn. Here is a list for all the good it will do:

* Bring a Light hunter with streaks or SRMs.
* Call target spotted, drop a UAV, then call for help.
* Stick with your team.
* Pilot a more agile 'Mech.
* Drop an arty. On yourself?? Yes! At your feet.
* Stick. With. Your. Team.
* Aim goodly.
* Bring a 'Mech with arm mounts and use them. Oh noes, this deviates from teh meta!

Edited by RickySpanish, 18 February 2019 - 10:36 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

This is like... 21 pages of redundancy.

[Y E O N N E]

Please kill this thread.

The exchange for having decent firepower on a Light is being made of paper. It's fair.

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2019 - 12:09 AM, said:

I don't get it ... If a huge amount of MGs and micro lasers are so vastly powerful and puts out so much DPS ... why don't you strap some 8MGs and a dozen lasors on a Dire and go totally wreck ****? Should have way more DPS than a Piranha since it can pack 20 extra heat sinks and a dozen tons of ammo.

Well, actually... a couple of times we've run a bunch of Gargoyles with SPLs, stood just inside the gate of a Faction Play map, and wiped out an OpFor's entire first wave through sustained high sustained close range ERMicro and C-SPL DPS.

It's harder to pull off in quick play, where there aren't any mandatory chokepoints that an enemy must mandatorily funnel through. But I have seen the occasional high-DPS SPL build surprising people in the basement of HPG, for example.

In any case: proves that it works, in certain circumstances.

Edited by Appogee, 18 February 2019 - 10:40 PM.

[YueFei]

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

No to much if he is standing still letting me fire at him but usually they are running 145 kph or faster and attempting to evade you shooting at them or is this a different experience for you? Of course some times they do just stand still...with their face in you crotch...where you can't hit them with any of your weapons. Doesn't take long for 12 DPS to core you out when those MGs are kicking you in the nuts.

Seriously though I know your trying to be funny or I hope you are anyway, but its pretty common knowledge that lights are relatively hard to hit when they are being evasive and in most cases unless your lucky, you end up just grazing a light mech for a few damage, here and there, when they are zipping about. I mean I would expect everyone has seen a Locust, Flea, Piranha, etc zig-zaging in and out of your entire team, seemingly immune to the fact that 6-8 mechs are trying to take him out. Also when solo any decent light pilot is typically going to be used his enhanced speed and mobility to keep at your back and keep you from being able to engage him if your piloting a slower, less agile mech. At that point your relying on the light pilot to make a mistake that you can capitalize on in order to make a solid hit.

On the other hand your examples are only valid when you have a completely unobstructed view of the enemy light and they are standing completely motionless within range of your full alpha. Sure, then you have a point, but lets try to be realistic here and talk about what really happens in a match.

And again, I am not advocating nerfing the mech, I just want MGs reigned in to something appropriate and reasonable, If the PIR or any other mech that is reliant on MGs can't be competitive after the MG nerf, then buff the mechs individually until they can.

Lights mechs are relatively harder to hit, yes, but ultimately they can't actually dodge incoming fire at the kind of ranges at which MGs are employed. If you miss, it's 100% your own fault.

And, despite your complaint about a single Light mech crotch-hugging you to death, as Jman5 said, this game isn't built around 1v1. Larger mechs can and should form a combat box and peel for each other.

When a Piranha engages me, I have every chance to shoot him down. If he's a literal aimbot and has 100% accuracy, and I'm 50% accurate, I will still kill him before he has the chance to pull one of my legs. And if he's not going for legs, he's not going to get 100% of his damage into a torso because I'll be twisting between my own Alpha strikes. Honestly, it's pretty fair. I've had times when I've missed repeatedly, or engaged whilst heat-capped, and then the Piranha puts me down for a dirt nap. But I've also had times when I've one-shotted or two-shotted it and moved on.

On the other hand, Light mechs with medium-ranged weapons that know how to abuse that range against me? I basically get zoned and poked to death, with hardly a chance to hit back, because at those distances with my projectile velocities, hitting the Light is basically guess work.

But again, as Jman5 said, the game isn't built around 1v1's. My Shadowhawk is built to engage up-close against non-brawler Assaults and Heavies. It's not reasonable to expect a single mech that has the advantage in all situations. That would be unbalanced.

Edited by YueFei, 18 February 2019 - 11:07 PM.