463 replies to this topic

[Wil McCullough]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

If you die to a Light in an Assault, let's be honest: You 100% deserved it. You were out of position, or you didn't call for help, or you couldn't aim, it's going to be for one or all of those reasons. There are many, many ways to deal with Light 'Mechs and it's about damned time the developers stop catering to players that categorically refuse to use the tools at their disposal to play the game. These guys will always screw up, blame everyone but themselves and then come and whine on the forums, or at Mechconn. Here is a list for all the good it will do:

* Bring a Light hunter with streaks or SRMs.
* Call target spotted, drop a UAV, then call for help.
* Stick with your team.
* Pilot a more agile 'Mech.
* Drop an arty. On yourself?? Yes! At your feet.
* Stick. With. Your. Team.
* Aim goodly.
* Bring a 'Mech with arm mounts and use them. Oh noes, this deviates from teh meta!

I would venture that you don't even have to stick with your team, just another pilot (fellow assaults are convenient in that respect).

One-on-one, with the light getting the drop on the assault, a competent light pilot will win more often than not. But when more mechs are thrown into the mix, the odds of success get exponentially lower. Especially if the assaults focus fire.

This obviously doesn't apply if the assaults are potatoes though.

[PhoenixFire55]

Appogee, on 18 February 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

Well, actually... a couple of times we've run a bunch of Gargoyles with SPLs, stood just inside the gate of a Faction Play map, and wiped out an OpFor's entire first wave through sustained high sustained close range ERMicro and C-SPL DPS.

It's harder to pull off in quick play, where there aren't any mandatory chokepoints that an enemy must mandatorily funnel through. But I have seen the occasional high-DPS SPL build surprising people in the basement of HPG, for example.

In any case: proves that it works, in certain circumstances.

Translates as: Teamwork beats random groups of clueless people. Now try pushing a prepared position against people who can aim and see how many of your Gargoyles die before ever getting in range.

The point of my original sarcastic message was simple. If you have zero spatial awareness and no clue whatsoever as to from what angles an enemy light can strike it is your problem only. The fact that you haven't reached the battle yet and aren't ready to shoot doesn't mean that the battle hasn't reached you yet. It can and will reach you before you are ready if you are busy derping. And since it is obvious that Piranhas and all lights are only dangerous when they get behind something, it is your and only your fault that you let them.

The whole strawman argument of 'waa-waa-Piranha-OP' revolves around its hardpoints and DPS. Hence I've brought up a mech that has a similar amount of hardpoints and can pack similar builds with even greater DPS. Now tell me, what is the difference between a Piranha with SLs and MGs getting behind someone and a DireWolf with SLs and MGs getting behind someone? ... Thats right, there is no difference except that it takes more time to do it in a slower mech, hence giving more time for derps to realize smth suspicious is going on.

Now, I don't care one bit about 'stick together' tactic in solo QP and I often separate from the team to do aggressive flanking and strike from unexpected angles, even in slow assault mechs. Do that often enough and often enough you are able to sneak up on people from behind in a slow assault with them being totally unaware.

And now the important part. Tell me what will hurt you more when it hits you in the back ... A Piranha with its silly tiny lasers and MGs @ 90m, or smth like Scorch with LBX40+SRM24 / Anni with 2HG+5MPLs @ 300m, or better yet MKII with 2UAC10+2UAC5 on double tap / 2Gauss+2HLL+4ML @ 500m ?

[PhoenixFire55]

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

Seriously though I know your trying to be funny or I hope you are anyway, but its pretty common knowledge that lights are relatively hard to hit when they are being evasive and in most cases unless your lucky, you end up just grazing a light mech for a few damage, here and there, when they are zipping about

If you are not hitting a light 9 times out of 10 when its inside 300m of you, then its your aim that is the problem. Outside 300m most lights literally do zero damage to you, i.e. being perfectly irrelevant.

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

I mean I would expect everyone has seen a Locust, Flea, Piranha, etc zig-zaging in and out of your entire team, seemingly immune to the fact that 6-8 mechs are trying to take him out.

Doesn't matter how much potatoe you put in a bowl, its still won't turn into a fried chicken.

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

Also when solo any decent light pilot is typically going to be used his enhanced speed and mobility to keep at your back and keep you from being able to engage him if your piloting a slower, less agile mech.

And who's fault is that you are caught in the open with nothing solid to put your back against and no teammates in line of sight, eh?

Angel of Annihilation, on 18 February 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

And again, I am not advocating nerfing the mech, I just want MGs reigned in to something appropriate and reasonable, If the PIR or any other mech that is reliant on MGs can't be competitive after the MG nerf, then buff the mechs individually until they can.

Bandaids upon bandaids. Sadly bandaids can't fix stupid.

[Khobai]

adamts01, on 05 July 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

That argument applies to all brawler lights. As an old school light player I actually believe that most lights should get their size reduced

No lol. All mechs are basically made of the same materials so their density should be fairly consistent. That means, for example, that a Jenner (35 tons) should be one-third the size of an Atlas (100 tons). Regardless of whether you wanna argue lights are too small or assaults are too big, neither case supports lights needing to be even smaller.

The proportional scaling between lights and assaults is already super screwed up. It doesnt need to be made worse by making lights smaller.

As for the piranha its really not overpowered in the grand scheme of things. The biggest issue with the piranha is that it vastly outclasses anything in the same tonnage bracket. Most other 20-25 tonners could use a buff to bring them into parity with the piranha. So the problem is more that those other mechs are underpowered... because of PGI's ridiculous notion that lights and assaults are supposed to be equal.

Honestly PGI should abandon their whole fail idea of trying to make lights equal to assaults because that idea was always dumb and inherently not battletech. MWLL had the right idea by having a credit system where you start off with a light mech and then earn credits to buy heavier mechs as the game progresses. Thats how the gamemodes in MWO should work too instead of trying to make all weight classes equal which has never worked in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 19 February 2019 - 01:50 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

No lol. All mechs are basically made of the same materials so their density should be fairly consistent. That means a Jenner (35 tons) should be one-third the size of an Atlas (100 tons). Now whether or not you wanna argue lights are too small or assaults are too big, neither case supports lights needing to be even smaller.

The scaling between lights and assaults is already super screwed up. It doesnt need to be made worse by making lights smaller.

Because in a game where you FACE the enemy to shoot them VOLUME doesn't matter compared to the size of the FRONTAL PROFILE. And since its VOLUME that is normalized between all mechs, some chassis absolutely NEED to be rescaled.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because in a game where you FACE the enemy to shoot them VOLUME doesn't matter compared to the size of the FRONTAL PROFILE. And since its VOLUME that is normalized between all mechs, some chassis absolutely NEED to be rescaled.

Of course. But when an Atlas is like six times bigger than a Jenner youve taken the rescaling to the extreme... it starts to break immersion when Assaults are disproportionately huge compared to lights.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

Of course. But when an Atlas is like six times bigger than a Jenner youve taken the rescaling to the extreme... it starts to break immersion when Assaults are disproportionately huge compared to lights.

uh-oh. You said the I-word.
Sorry man, but that concept died a long time ago and you know it.
Accept that the wee mech roughly the size of an Atlas’s head has 20 tons of mass and just go with it.

[Curccu]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

No lol. All mechs are basically made of the same materials so their density should be fairly consistent. That means, for example, that a Jenner (35 tons) should be one-third the size of an Atlas (100 tons). Regardless of whether you wanna argue lights are too small or assaults are too big, neither case supports lights needing to be even smaller.

The proportional scaling between lights and assaults is already super screwed up. It doesnt need to be made worse by making lights smaller.

As for the piranha its really not overpowered in the grand scheme of things. The biggest issue with the piranha is that it vastly outclasses anything in the same tonnage bracket. Most other 20-25 tonners could use a buff to bring them into parity with the piranha. So the problem is more that those other mechs are underpowered... because of PGI's ridiculous notion that lights and assaults are supposed to be equal.

Locust still pretty good, Flea is as good as Piranha, SRM commando and MLX are pretty strong... oh and that is all 20-25 tonners in the game.
30-35 tonners suck more than 20-25 tonners, mostly because they are too huge compared to health they have some of them are too slow also.

[PhoenixFire55]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 02:10 AM, said:

Of course. But when an Atlas is like six times bigger than a Jenner youve taken the rescaling to the extreme... it starts to break immersion when Assaults are disproportionately huge compared to lights.

Atlas has 5 times more armor and about 5 times more tonnage for weapons. Hence I see no reason why it shouldn't be 5 times bigger.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

because of PGI's ridiculous notion that lights and assaults are supposed to be equal.

Honestly PGI should abandon their whole fail idea of trying to make lights equal to assaults because that idea was always dumb and inherently not battletech.

Trying to make every 'mech viable in a PVP FPS? What were they thinking?!

[Redshirt4Life]

Had a game yesterday where 2 assaults both decided to sit back and decided not to let anyone know that a piranha was biting their ankles. That piranha managed to solo the assault with barely a scratch. Then my 55 ton medium came along and the piranha was dead before he even realized he was in danger.

I'm pretty new to the game but this paper rock scissors thing seems intentional, and its something common to games like this.

That said I do think assaults are a bit underpowered. Then again I've always been one that favors the ability to reposition quickly.

[YueFei]

Bud Crue, on 19 February 2019 - 02:23 AM, said:

uh-oh. You said the I-word.
Sorry man, but that concept died a long time ago and you know it.
Accept that the wee mech roughly the size of an Atlas’s head has 20 tons of mass and just go with it.

Honestly, I prefer the alternative, which would be to shrink the Atlas.

At its current size, with its current agility levels, it can't spread incoming damage from the best shooters. Engine de-sync and all that.

If it was shrunk down, it could operate at current agility levels, and be able to spread incoming damage across its different hitboxes.

[adamts01]

Khobai, on 19 February 2019 - 01:29 AM, said:

As for the piranha its really not overpowered in the grand scheme of things.

Dude.... You're quoting an 8 month old post after that mech has been nerfed multiple times over.... Context matters.

As for light/assault size.... If we had an end game where tonnage mattered, than yeah, lights should be canon fodder. But we have nothing more than a simple team death match with 4 classes. And no, it's not Battletech, but it's all we've got. And every class should be equally powerful in its own way. Not the way I'd like it, but it is what it is.

[General Solo]

Wil McCullough, on 18 February 2019 - 11:19 PM, said:

......One-on-one, with the light getting the drop on the assault, a competent light pilot will win more often than not. ....

I disagree kinda
I think a competent assault would wipe a competent light more times than the other way round

Problem is competent assaults are rare
Any assault can hit a building, turret or slow mech
IMO the mark of a competent assault pilot is the ability to hit lights at will

And lights know this and keep away from competent assaults

And so prey on the not so competent assaults coz they ain't competent enough to hit light mechs

[GeminiWolf]

Lets keep this thread going!

[FireStoat]

Numerous players that aren't doing the Whalehammer IIC challenges are gearing up light mechs to strike hard when the lumbering beasts are isolated or damaged. Fish mechs are the big culprit of this, mostly. I loaded up my Pakhet with medium pulse, streaks, and a light active probe to get cheesy easy kills because as the great poets of Street Fighter, Tekken, and Killer Instinct used to say - "If it's in the game, it's in the game."

Commandos, fleas, and pirate's banes using stealth armor are the hard counter to a streak using mech, but the hard counter to them is simply not allowing yourself to be far away from your allies. Rock Paper Scissors is a thing.

[VonBruinwald]

FireStoat, on 21 February 2019 - 12:28 AM, said:

as the great poets of Street Fighter, Tekken, and Killer Instinct used to say - "If it's in the game, it's in the game."

That was EA Sports...

Edited by VonBruinwald, 21 February 2019 - 08:17 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

PhoenixFire55, on 19 February 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

Atlas has 5 times more armor and about 5 times more tonnage for weapons. Hence I see no reason why it shouldn't be 5 times bigger.

If YOU don’t see it but everyone else does, perhaps you should consult an eye doctor (or an iDoctor, I am not sure anymore these days).

You dismiss every assult as being driven by a potato. I say that every 20 ton mech that gets one-shotted is being driven by another potato. The last surviving mechs on the losing team tend to be light mechs. The typical end scene of QP matches is 4 mechs clumsily stomping about while a spastic tiny mech is running between their legs for an extended period of time. Had it been an assault mech it would not have lasted 10 seconds in that situation. When the damage flying around is high, the most valuable armor is not getting hit at all. The stupid undersizing of the light mechs combined with impossible accelerations facilitates that.

Rescale light mechs appropriatly please.

Edited by ShiverMeRivets, 21 February 2019 - 11:00 AM.

[LORD ORION]

Mercstar rumors...

Hanse Davion gets kick backs from PGI to enforce the 3 rear armor meta.

[PhoenixFire55]

ShiverMeRivets, on 21 February 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

If YOU don’t see it but everyone else does, perhaps you should consult an eye doctor (or an iDoctor, I am not sure anymore these days).

You dismiss every assult as being driven by a potato. I say that every 20 ton mech that gets one-shotted is being driven by another potato. The last surviving mechs on the losing team tend to be light mechs. The typical end scene of QP matches is 4 mechs clumsily stomping about while a spastic tiny mech is running between their legs for an extended period of time. Had it been an assault mech it would not have lasted 10 seconds in that situation. When the damage flying around is high, the most valuable armor is not getting hit at all. The stupid undersizing of the light mechs combined with impossible accelerations facilitates that.

Rescale light mechs appropriatly please.

Oh great, yet another sub 1.0 W/L ratio pro is here thinking he is 'everyone else' and educating us on what is appropriate and whatnot.

Sigh.

Its kinda funny these days, reading these 'expert' opinions from people who never play lights, let alone actually play on a high enough level to understand the concepts of aiming and target prioritizing, since you can clearly see their 'expert' stats.