MischiefSC, on 09 July 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:
Not moving the goal post at all. My point is that MGs are better than lasers currently. I'm not sure I agree that a 4MPL CMD is equal in performance to a 12 MG PIR.Aside from being almost double the DPS for 0 heat it's literally doing more damage/tic than the 4 MPL CMD. Even if they were trading at 130m (not really how it would work I'm sure) the PIR has the advantage, even beyond the IS XL stuff on a CMD. Ignoring the bonus crit damage of the MGs maybe the CMDs stronger quirks would give it an edge? 90m in range with the PIR faster, I dunno. I also compared the 12 MG PIR to the 12 E hardpoint PIR specifically to point out that the 12 MG one is better. That's the point.
You are moving the goalpost in the sense that you keep shifting the focus of the discussion to something else when the entire premise is that the CMD-TDK, WLF, ACH, and MLX chassis are where they need to be in terms of shape, size, agility, and raw durability, and that we are comparing the performance of one set of weapons to the next. We are comparing the strength of MGs relative to what's available on the field now, conjecturing what happens if we nerf the durability on the WLF or buff the durability on the ACH is not going to get us anywhere. So maybe "moving the goalpost" is the wrong phrase there, but you are having a difficult time staying focused, and I will expound on that in the next section.
You also might want to check your math, there, because you are way off. A quartet of IS Medium Pulse will deal 24 damage at a rate of 40 DPS before skill nodes (47 after). With three Heavy Smalls and 12 MGs on the PIR-1, you are only going to deal 28.25 (30 after skills) and 12 of that isn't even pin-point unless you are very close. The Cipher is actually a little stronger, here, dealing 33.1 (36.1 after skills), but it's still not as bursty as the TDK and it still doesn't have the range (242 pre-skills, up to 275 post), speed (165 kph), agility, or durability (lots). The FLE-17 is very similar. That said, the 'Mechs don't really play anything alike, it's more like Snake and Mongoose. Ditto SRM bombers like the Jav.
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I said all along you can buff the small lasers back up but that currently MGs are stronger for all the reasons you listed. As to the ACH vs WLF, I was asking that if the ACH has the same quirks as the WLF would you take the MG+laser ACH over the WLF, specifically because MGs on the ACH (with JJs and good mobility) vs the WLF with just IS lasers.
This is a non-productive question, because you are asking me if I'll take an unreasonably durable ACH with MGs and lasers over a reasonably durable WLF with only-lasers. The answer is very likely yes, because you've removed one of the chief drawbacks to MGS: the required exposure time to actually use their DPS. So, duh, I take the MGs and spam away with nigh invincibility. How does that show us the MGS are overperforming, though? All that shows is that you've made that 'Mech too durable, which was a silly exercise because durability is not a problem on the ACH as it stands now. Hell, I'd even take our unreasonably durable ACH with just lasers over the reasonably durable WLF, now.
You can't take a broad axe to target a specific problem. Too much collateral, ends up breaking everything else. You should know better than that, given that's what PGI has been doing for years now.
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I get that MGs are the thing on lights because of the laser nerfs. It's why I've said buff small/ER small/small pulse lasers.
The only reason I said nerf MGs or make them more niche in some form or fashion is, again, if you have them competing in the same role as lasers you're always going to have a better/worse scenario that makes mixed MG + energy loadouts an additional casualty. Give them complementary roles or just different roles and you increase the viable options for mechs.
Make them more complementary? One deals low alpha, high sustained DPS (in numbers), and generates no heat. The other deals high alpha, low to moderate DPS, and generates large amounts of heat. Both are hitscan, both are very resource efficient. They could not possibly become any more complementary than already are, which if I were in your shoes I would say is part of the problem. We can, however, make them more gimmicky by reducing damage and increasing crits, but that would be even worse. If we reduce their damage and crits, they just don't get taken on anything but those boats (and RIP my Arrow). If we add a silly mechanic like the RAC jam bar to them, we take those boat 'mechs out of play because they don't have the alpha and they can't use their DPS...unless your bar is long enough that you can still get a kill in but then that's not being an effective nerf anymore (and we also make taking any less than a boat would pointless). Adding heat to them makes them less complementary, but unless the heat is atrocious it won't make a difference to the MG boats unless you also implement ghost heat. Congrats, it's a mess! A mess you didn't need to get into because there is no problem (except perhaps the crit rate)!
All of that said, the lasers are where they are because of the bigs; they are generally very good on the bigs. Buffing the lasers straight-up will also buff the MG boats. We have these things called quirks, though, which allows us to dodge the sort of power-creep a global buff would entail to make the lasers not-**** on specific 'Mechs. Apply ER laser duration and/or heat quirks onto the ACH-C Set of 8 or the relevant energy arms; presto, your cERML ACH is now competitive with the ERML WLF! Presto, your cMPL ACH or even PIR-3 can compete with 6x ML WLFs and LCT-1Es.
And we haven't even touched SRMs. The cSRM4 and 6 spread way too much to use effectively on an ACH or MLX and the only Clan Light that can feasibly boat cSRM2 is a gigantic toilet seat with similar bolted-to-the-floor agility. On the IS side, the Oxide isn't much better, but the Javelin actually acquits itself pretty well but is overshadowed by the ASN-21 and -23 in the same role.
MischiefSC, on 09 July 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:
@Yeonne -
I'm worried that maybe I haven't made myself clear.
I don't think MGs are OP in general. I don't think the Piranha is OP. I think it's performing out of scope with other lights but that's because other lights suck balls.
A lot of Lights suck balls. A lot of Lights also do not suck balls, though. Locust, Flea, Wolfhound, Cheeto, Mist Lynx, Piranha, Commando, Javelin, Osiris...all of them are competent. All of them can put up reliably high numbers in QP, and all of them can have a significant battlefield impact. MG boats feel out of scope relative to the others because they do all of their work inside a compressed time frame and because, at least in QP and probably largely in FP, people just can't aim for sh*t. That means MG Lights can play stupidly and get away with murder. Should we start balancing for player ability?
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I think we both agree that small lasers of pretty much all sort need buffed. Also lights need their mobility back.
Yes.
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When you do that, isn't it just going to make MGs irrelevant again? We do that all the time - PPC/Gauss, LL/ERLL/LPL, ML/ERML, all of it. We make one set of weapons or even type of hardpoints irrelevant for a while or OP for a while.
Not necessarily, no. Good brawl-range lasers are scalpels and give you more time to evade while having highly efficient damage. MGs are cudgels, and do not allow you to really evade because their damage becomes very inefficient if you do. Like I said above, Snake and Mongoose. A good SPL boat could probably reliably put down an MG boat with a two-shot to the CT, the trick is first dodging or mitigating the laser burst from said MG boat.
And as I said previously, just buffing the smalls will also buff the MG boats. While some Smalls need direct buffs, using quirks to really give going all-in on energy for a variant or pod set is probably the best option.
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So why not push the MGs sideways? So that when yes, SPL/ERSML/SML is better for burst damage and the primary weapon for lights (there's, what, 1 or 2 total variants of all mechs in this game that really only CAN boat MGs vs how many that have both energy and small ballistic hardpoints?) but it's actually not bad to take a couple/few MGs for destroying internal structure or whatever.
PIR-1, PIR-CI, FLE-19, FLE-FA, MLX-G, ACH-E, ACH-SH, SHC-P, BJ-A are the main MG boats in this game. And while the PIR is definitely superior in the role, the performance of the FLE as an MG boat is still acceptable.
And as I said before, there really isn't a way to push them sideways that doesn't make them not worth having on 'Mechs that can't boat the big numbers or that doesn't. You always have to come back to quirks to offset whatever you did in some way or you need to add a new mechanic.
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This isn't about Piranha OP. It's that right now small lasers suck so MGs are pretty much overall better. When/if you fix that, suddenly the MG ones are just worthless again because they were functionally just doing the same role. Make small lasers good again but keep MGs in a role that has value used alongside them.
It's not just small lasers. All Clan lasers are sub-optimal for "classic" Light 'Mechs (read: not faux Mediums). IS still have their Medium-class to lean on.
Also, I will also point out that the small lasers are still getting used. An all-small boat may not be good, but smalls still make good supplements to other lasers (i.e. SL/ERSL with MPL on IS 'Mechs) and to the MGs were are talking about (on both sides). Clan ER Smalls are also still very powerful on 'Mechs like the Nova.
I wouldn't worry too much about role overlap. Snake and Mongoose.
Edited by Yeonne Greene, 09 July 2018 - 07:58 PM.
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