518 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 July 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

Sorry but just get away from the frak Mechlab. Lore did not have the type of mechlab we gamers have, be it the PC game or the TT. The power of the Clans came from STOCK mechs. Stock Clan mechs were way more powerful that IS/Star League Stock mechs, and that was AFTER FASA created Clan tech after the failure of the playtesting of the Clans using Star League era tech/mechs. Clan warriors had available alt configurations, but mechs were setup per their CO directives. The few owners of IS mechs certainly could not make wholesale changes their mechs, and many changes took time to make, with rolls on how successful said changes were.

The Clans were nerf because both Clan and IS, especially IS, had access to the Mechlab. And if MWO did not have a mechlab, do you believe that the game would still be here in a purely Clan vs IS environment? Possibly in a Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS but not a stock Clan vs IS. And what percentage of the population would play Clan vs IS, even with asymmetric settings? So yes, Clans were nerf by having a universal and viable mechlab.

You are right about the Mechlab. The whole point of OmniMechs in TT was that they could change out their loadouts in the field (essentially between games), where the IS or Second Line Clan Mechs (non-omni) would have to be at a Mech Factory, or well equipped base to be modified and the length of time it would take would depend on the availability of components, the facilities available and the skill of the technicians.

In MWO everyone has access to a Mechlab and a tech crew that can perform miracles between matches, so IS Mechs and Second-Line Clan Mechs are mostly superior to Omni-Mechs in MWO. Also I have never seen a Supernova take a head hit, I have even shot a shutdown Supernova in what looked like it's cockpit, but all the damage went to the CT or side torsos. Does the Supernova even have a head?

[Vorpal Puppy]

Didn't read the previous 25+ pages of comments but my experience on the test server confirmed what I already suspected. My poor little ice ferrets are dead. They were weak before - one basic role left - kiting / harassing with 5 ERML. It's firepower has dropped from 35 to 26. Basically useless. The ERML nerf has got to go or we will see nothing for clan lights & meds but machine guns and a few srms.
My 9MPL Ebon Jaguar is still very playable, but you do notice a bit of a drop in firepower.
The Timberwolf with 3 LPL in that high left torso omnipod that it can fire now without ghost heat gets a noticeable boost - still not great, but an improvement to a nearly dead mech.
Had never played a SNV before, but 3 ERLL in each arm that you can fire without ghost heat is strong on the right maps.

[Cypherdrene]

How to fix MWO and also get rid of ghost heat:

1- Greatly reduce overall heat capacity: Less powerful back-to-back alphas, have to fully cool down. Heatsinks can still increase the thermal capacity though a limit should be set.

This idea is akin to the Energy Draw system proposed way back when, it was a good idea, but didn't fly as it was hard-capped for all mechs.

2- Greatly increase heat dissipation: Why? becase "Heat sinks, while sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense" <Sarna.net>... so it's an active cooling system, it's meant to cool as fast as it heats up (this is true for CPU's and GPU's and even engines)

This would bring back the energy knife-fights Clans are known for.

3- TT/Lore damage values: Though just to make it fair, Clan lasers should be 20% stronger, not 30% as Lore indicates. Though bump Clan heat too:
Type - Lore - MWO
ERSL - 2 - 3
ERML - 5 - 6
HSL - 3 - 4
HML - 7 - 8

Heavy lasers are very niche and ofter overlooked, cooldown IMHO should be the same as the ER versions to make them more of a choice and not a way to fill available tonnage. It'd balance itself out since they're so hot and can't be fired so quickly as it'd hit thermal capacity very fast. The reduced range is of course a self explained drawback.


Large Lasers in general should be same as Lore as mechs would cool down much faster with the system above. This would also apply for PPC's, only (IS) ERPPC's being the least efficient per point of damage, though maybe 12 heat rather than 15 (Lore) cause thats crazy.

4- All Gauss Rifles should have recoil: though very minimal, greater recoil for HGR.


Not my original idea, but it's what makes the most sense. [/color]Anyone is welcome to improve upon it.

-Shameless repost -

[Leviathan MDK]

Here is my thought on the bigger picture involving clan weapons. It's not that the clan lasers are so great, but that clan ac's suck.
The firing pattern is to blame for that. Clan AC's fire a spread of rounds (LBX is the only exception) IS AC's fire pinpoint. LBX fire a spray of pellets like a shotgun. both side are the same on that one. Before the new tech the IS had only one UAC, the 5 I believe, but i don't recall if it also fired one round or a stream of rounds. Now they have the same UAC as the clans but don't fire a stream of rounds but they also double tap. Not to mention the RAC's.
What i would do is make al AC's pinpoint, both clan and IS. UAC's with a stream of rounds, double tap and of course the jams, for both sides.

The gause can have a recoil but also on both sides with the HGR the heaviest recoil. The GR a lighter recoil and the LGR the lightest,if at all.
As of Lore the clan still have the weight advantage and some damage. IS has the structure and armor quirks as a balancing act.

It is just an idea but i think it could work out.

[Y E O N N E]

Leviathan MDK, on 16 July 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

Here is my thought on the bigger picture involving clan weapons. It's not that the clan lasers are so great, but that clan ac's suck.
The firing pattern is to blame for that. Clan AC's fire a spread of rounds (LBX is the only exception) IS AC's fire pinpoint. LBX fire a spray of pellets like a shotgun. both side are the same on that one. Before the new tech the IS had only one UAC, the 5 I believe, but i don't recall if it also fired one round or a stream of rounds. Now they have the same UAC as the clans but don't fire a stream of rounds but they also double tap. Not to mention the RAC's.
What i would do is make al AC's pinpoint, both clan and IS. UAC's with a stream of rounds, double tap and of course the jams, for both sides.

The gause can have a recoil but also on both sides with the HGR the heaviest recoil. The GR a lighter recoil and the LGR the lightest,if at all.
As of Lore the clan still have the weight advantage and some damage. IS has the structure and armor quirks as a balancing act.

It is just an idea but i think it could work out.

IS ACs were and are not competitive with Clan Ultra ACs and never have been; the damage saturation from the cUACs always outperformed the slow but focused shot of the IS ACs. Clan ACs shouldn't even exist and are just stand-ins for the slug-fire ammo on the LB-X, but if we make them single-shot like their IS counterparts they are simply hands-down better unless we cripple them in some other way relative to the IS one.

IS Ultras 10s and 20s fire in streams, and IS Ultras in general are competitive with Clan Ultras provided the IS competitor has enough of a tonnage advantage, otherwise they run considerably hotter and slower.

[Leviathan MDK]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 July 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

IS ACs were and are not competitive with Clan Ultra ACs and never have been; the damage saturation from the cUACs always outperformed the slow but focused shot of the IS ACs. Clan ACs shouldn't even exist and are just stand-ins for the slug-fire ammo on the LB-X, but if we make them single-shot like their IS counterparts they are simply hands-down better unless we cripple them in some other way relative to the IS one.

IS Ultras 10s and 20s fire in streams, and IS Ultras in general are competitive with Clan Ultras provided the IS competitor has enough of a tonnage advantage, otherwise they run considerably hotter and slower.

It is lore that clans have better equipment and mechs, still in mwo the have pro's and con's? thinner armor and less quirks overal is one of them. For me i don't like jams but have to content with the stream fire pattern of the clan ac. I just don't get why the clan AC's that should be better than IS, according to Lore, and people just ignore them. The reason why they gave IS AC20's ghost heat because it was a pinpoint killer without recoil or charge of gause rifles.
Now many use HGR on the IS side or Gause on the clan side. It would make the AC's another option that could give the clans the option to brawl or not. Now the longrange weapons simply are your best option and it becomes Meta.

[Y E O N N E]

Leviathan MDK, on 17 July 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

It is lore that clans have better equipment and mechs, still in mwo the have pro's and con's? thinner armor and less quirks overal is one of them. For me i don't like jams but have to content with the stream fire pattern of the clan ac. I just don't get why the clan AC's that should be better than IS, according to Lore, and people just ignore them. The reason why they gave IS AC20's ghost heat because it was a pinpoint killer without recoil or charge of gause rifles.
Now many use HGR on the IS side or Gause on the clan side. It would make the AC's another option that could give the clans the option to brawl or not. Now the longrange weapons simply are your best option and it becomes Meta.

This is a PvP game and PGI has decided that they want IS and Clan teams to be the same size. Ergo, the lore is meanibgkess and can only provide inspiration on how each faction looks and feels, but you cannot make one flatly superior to the other. Quirks are also inconsistent in scope and type and cannot be relied uponbas a balancing mechanism; too logistically complicated.

My opinion? Up the velocity on cACs considerably; that will reduce the effects of the stream without removing them. Also need to adjust the cooldown on all cACs to compebsate for how long it takes a burst to complete, because right nowcall cACs except the cAC/2 have less DPS than their IS counterparts.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 July 2018 - 07:16 AM.

[Ruediger Steiner]

Russ blocked me on Twitter for this image.

[Ruediger Steiner]

Since Russ has such a great sense of humor ...















Good night MWO.

[Mighty Spike]

Wishmast3r, on 17 July 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

Russ blocked me on Twitter for this image.

gj

Edited by Mighty Spike, 17 July 2018 - 10:38 AM.

[Justicier]

Cypherdrene, on 15 July 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

How to fix MWO and also get rid of ghost heat:

1- Greatly reduce overall heat capacity: Less powerful back-to-back alphas, have to fully cool down. Heatsinks can still increase the thermal capacity though a limit should be set.

This idea is akin to the Energy Draw system proposed way back when, it was a good idea, but didn't fly as it was hard-capped for all mechs.

2- Greatly increase heat dissipation: Why? becase "Heat sinks, while sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense" <Sarna.net>... so it's an active cooling system, it's meant to cool as fast as it heats up (this is true for CPU's and GPU's and even engines)

This would bring back the energy knife-fights Clans are known for.

3- TT/Lore damage values: Though just to make it fair, Clan lasers should be 20% stronger, not 30% as Lore indicates. Though bump Clan heat too:
Type - Lore - MWO
ERSL - 2 - 3
ERML - 5 - 6
HSL - 3 - 4
HML - 7 - 8

Heavy lasers are very niche and ofter overlooked, cooldown IMHO should be the same as the ER versions to make them more of a choice and not a way to fill available tonnage. It'd balance itself out since they're so hot and can't be fired so quickly as it'd hit thermal capacity very fast. The reduced range is of course a self explained drawback.


Large Lasers in general should be same as Lore as mechs would cool down much faster with the system above. This would also apply for PPC's, only (IS) ERPPC's being the least efficient per point of damage, though maybe 12 heat rather than 15 (Lore) cause thats crazy.

4- All Gauss Rifles should have recoil: though very minimal, greater recoil for HGR.


Not my original idea, but it's what makes the most sense. [/color]Anyone is welcome to improve upon it.

-Shameless repost -

This is it right here. Right now, the heat cap is, IIRC, roughly double what the old games were. Add double heat sinks to your mech and it increases the heat cap even more. The heat cap should be the heat cap regardless of the heat sink type. Double heat sinks should simply cool faster than singles. That is all.

1: Cut the overall heat threshold by half.
2: Remove heat cap increase from Double-heatsinks and up cooling rate.
3: Get rid of the ghost heat for all weapons.
4: Increase clan laser damages 25% over IS lasers, and increase heat at least 25% (probably more due to increased range) over IS.
5: Recoil for autocannons and gauss, scaling based on caliber in relation to mech weight

PGI, please try this "Old-school" system, I don't care if it's a public PTS or just something you guys try at the office. Try it, and see how the gameplay compares to how it is right now, or how it is in the Alpha Balance PTS. I would wager that it would be much more fun, and less hassle to maintain than the current increasingly convoluted system.

Edited by Justicier, 17 July 2018 - 04:39 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Leviathan MDK, on 17 July 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

It is lore that clans have better equipment and mechs, still in mwo the have pro's and con's? thinner armor and less quirks overal is one of them.

snip

In lore, it was the entire package, not what someone could do with a mechlab because there was no mechlab. Stock Clan mechs were way ahead of Stock IS mechs, be it 3025 or 3050. Clan Omni advantages was the ability to switch out the payload determined by Clan commanders, ie Prime Alt A, Alt B, etc in a few hours. Customized IS mechs took weeks or months, and updates were not always running at 100% and cost out of the nose but for the normal mechwarrior he piloted what his CO assigned to him.

[Vlad Striker]

Simple solution is to make soft cap of >=30-40 dmg in single volley. More than 40+ will make weapon malfunction or enormous heat producing. Ppl will use chainfire, TTL will be increased and so on.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

Could always buff brawling weapons and revert engine desynch and lrm velocity buff — you know, so we don’t have this silly lrmageddon driving away players.

Edited by Mad Dog Morgan, 30 July 2018 - 07:56 AM.

[PobbestGob]

Vlad Striker, on 26 July 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Simple solution is to make soft cap of &gt;=30-40 dmg in single volley. More than 40+ will make weapon malfunction or enormous heat producing. Ppl will use chainfire, TTL will be increased and so on.

The problem with a solution this simple is not all damage is equal. 40dmg that is pinpoint and front-loaded at 600 meters optimal range is much more effective than 40dmg with spread or over a duration at 300 meters, nevermind differences in heat, weapon weight, cooldown, etc, but the damage-based energy draw treats all weapons the same.

[KursedVixen]

Lockheed_, on 06 July 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

I‘m out. You lost me with this nonsense. I spend time and money on my mechs and a lot if them will be affected. No one asked you for these nerfs in particular, instead you got a lot of backlash last time you tried to push them through and yet you even have the audacity to ”thank the community for their feedback“ when all you do is ignore the very same community.
I enjoyed playing this game so far, I was looking forward playing MW5 Mercs and bring all my buddies who are currently into Battletech over, but what kind of an ******* would I be to make my friends give money to a company that doesn‘t give a **** about their customers?
I‘m gonna vote with my wallet and my spare time. I’m gonna play a couple of matches over the next few days with each of my favorite builds and then I‘m going to uninstall.

PGi only listens to IS whiney babies on Twitter and such... it's been like this since the clans were introduced. welp back to MW4 i guess.

[Lily from animove]

so a heat nerf for c-ERML and c-ERML? Why because all thsoe lights neding them are runnign too cool? is that really the mechs that need a nerf? because they get affected by it.

And how about a reduction in beamtiem as well? Less ehat efficiency, less burst damage due to not reduced beam duration. pretty much a dump system now.

I mean seriously, PGi have you even comapred the new numbers between is and clan now?


IS ERML:
5,00 dmg
4,50 heat
0,90 sbeam
4,00 sCooldown
360/720m range


new CERML:
5,25 dmg
5,70 heat
1,25 sbeam
4,00 sCooldown
400/800m

so that makes in comparison 1,11damage/heat vs 0,92dmg/heat

The IS ERML is now 20% more damage/heat has 28% less beamduration, and all the advantage the C Emed has now is amazign 10% range.

really, how is that still balanced? thats far off the chart, and if we had crosstech thats the moment people would use ISERML over CERML. Those 10% range are not worth these horrible Dmg/heat and beamduration.


So PLEASE PGI, do a damn comparison with other weapons once you "figure" these numbers out, because obviously you don't otherwise such unabalnced difference in efficiency wouldn't appear. this new comparison is far wrong on paper balance wise, and even worse than on paper when it comes to battlefield performance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2018 - 04:58 AM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

PGI Balancing = repeat the same errors again and again and again and again ...

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the next balancing ...IS is Op ..nerf LRMs ...IS laser, and the deadly Gauss