71 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

DjPush, on 08 July 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

I'm really partial to IS lights. Ravens, Firestarters, and Panthers. I can do pretty well in those three. As for the clan lights. Not so much. The Adder 5 MPL build is a ringer for me and that's about it. I have had the Cheetah since Clan Phase I. Even in it's heyday, I couldn't get the scores other people were getting with it. When this challenge came around I sold all the variant (except for the prime). I dusted it of the prime and gave it a shot. Then put it back in it's bay.

If you can do well in a Firestarter, you can do well in an Arctic Cheetah. They play very similarly.

[S O L A I S]

DjPush, on 08 July 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

I'm really partial to IS lights. Ravens, Firestarters, and Panthers. I can do pretty well in those three. As for the clan lights. Not so much. The Adder 5 MPL build is a ringer for me and that's about it. I have had the Cheetah since Clan Phase I. Even in it's heyday, I couldn't get the scores other people were getting with it. When this challenge came around I sold all the variant (except for the prime). I dusted it of the prime and gave it a shot. Then put it back in it's bay.

Then I think it is likely due to different style of play more than anything, especially after reading your comment below this one.

[The Lighthouse]

DjPush, on 08 July 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

I tried the HML and 6MG build last night after reading some of your suggestions and actually had a pretty good match. I ended up getting 813 dmg and 2 kills. It was hard work though. I had to basically wait until the heavier mechs chewed off enough enemy armor for me to get those MG crits. I was pretty much playing the scavenger. Like a Remoras fish feeding off a sharks left overs.

Yes, machinegun Clan lights are all scavengers. They are quite ineffective against fresh mechs but very deadly against injured (i.e structure exposed) mechs.

They are not like laser-based light mechs that can contribute to the fight right away.

With what you wrote about yourself so far, trust me; Wolfhound perfectly fits your play style. Extremely powerful 5 MPLs or 6 MLs that actually can cut armor unlike machineguns, super durable enough to last until end of the match even if you had engaged enemies from start...

You will do incredibly well with Wolfhound.

Jman5, on 08 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you can do well in a Firestarter, you can do well in an Arctic Cheetah. They play very similarly.

They are... actually a little bit different unless we are talking about Firestarter machinegun heroes. ACH lost its ability to poke with lasers well, while Firestarters still can.

You can guess his playstyle from other mechs, like Panther and Raven are pokers and can do some close fight with durability quirks.

S O L A I S, on 08 July 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

Then I think it is likely due to different style of play more than anything, especially after reading your comment below this one.

Yep.

[Jman5]

The Lighthouse, on 08 July 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

They are... actually a little bit different unless we are talking about Firestarter machinegun heroes. ACH lost its ability to poke with lasers well, while Firestarters still can.

You can guess his playstyle from other mechs, like Panther and Raven are pokers and can do some close fight with durability quirks.

Machine gun version plays like the Ember, energy versions plays like the other Firestarter variants. Cheetah can poke just fine if you're built for it.

There are differences, sure, but they are similar enough that if you can do well in one, you can do well in another. If anything, I find the cheetah easier to learn.

Edited by Jman5, 08 July 2018 - 07:50 PM.

[Appogee]

They do play similar, but ACH is much easier than FS9, due to its smaller size and hitboxes.

An ACH with say 2MPLs and 6MGs is still a killer Mech. Top quartile in the game.

I find it even easier than a Piranha, due to its superior durability. Less chance of a single mistake getting you insta-gibbed.

Edited by Appogee, 08 July 2018 - 08:14 PM.

[Appogee]

DjPush, on 08 July 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

I tried the HML and 6MG build last night after reading some of your suggestions and actually had a pretty good match. I ended up getting 813 dmg and 2 kills. It was hard work though. I had to basically wait until the heavier mechs chewed off enough enemy armor for me to get those MG crits. I was pretty much playing the scavenger.

You don't need to wait, but you do need to be careful.

When I play an ACH I always take ECM, run right around behind the enemy and start nibbling away at their rear. As soon as they turn to engage, run away for a minute, then come back. By the time I've done this twice, there are plenty of enemies with open components to go and kill head on.

The only Mech that ever bothers me is a Streak Boat.

Edited by Appogee, 08 July 2018 - 08:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 08 July 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

100% agree. The ML build is too hot, the Cheetah can't loiter long enough for the small pulse build to deal damage, and other lights do the MG build MUCH better. The Cheetah needs agility, needs to be smaller, and needs some armor quirks for those arms.

Smaller? It's the same size it always was, and that size has always been fine. It didn't get hit much in agility, either, though one can always make a broad case for Lights needing to be more agile. The arms have also historically not been much of an issue and were never armor quirked; nothing has changed there.

The only things that have changed for the ACH that bring it down relative to its former glory are slight agility nerf, the cSPL nerf, and the fact that an MLX and a PIR can get way more DPS out of the MG builds. That's not a whole lot, and it's really not a big delta.

[Mystere]

Bush Hopper, on 07 July 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

Lights are OP, especially ACHs and PIRs only there to pad my stats

-signed: Heavy and assault pilots

FTFY

Edited by Mystere, 08 July 2018 - 08:21 PM.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 July 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Smaller? It's the same size it always was, and that size has always been fine. It didn't get hit much in agility, either, though one can always make a broad case for Lights needing to be more agile. The arms have also historically not been much of an issue and were never armor quirked; nothing has changed there.

The only things that have changed for the ACH that bring it down relative to its former glory are slight agility nerf, the cSPL nerf, and the fact that an MLX and a PIR can get way more DPS out of the MG builds. That's not a whole lot, and it's really not a big delta.

The Cheetah's agility got hit very hard. It's a completely different mech from before the resize.

True, it's arms were always weak, but it was able to limit its exposure before. It was able to strike from safety with MLs (now too hot), or quickly kill with SPLs (which now force you to loiter to deal damage).

The Firestarter got screwed on size and agility, but it least it still has viable weapons. The Cheetah just doesn't have the tonnage to keep cool with anything but SPLs or MGs.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 08 July 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

The Cheetah's agility got hit very hard. It's a completely different mech from before the resize.

No, it did not, not relative to everything else. As a point of fact, the ACH was one of the big "winners" in the patch that added both the Skill Tree and Engine Desync - 16 May 2017.

Quote

True, it's arms were always weak, but it was able to limit its exposure before. It was able to strike from safety with MLs (now too hot), or quickly kill with SPLs (which now force you to loiter to deal damage).

That's not a 'Mech problem, that's a weapon problem.

Quote

The Firestarter got screwed on size and agility, but it least it still has viable weapons. The Cheetah just doesn't have the tonnage to keep cool with anything but SPLs or MGs.

Firestarter is even worse than the Cheetah despite having better weapon options. It is much bigger, it cannot pitch its torso up or down to save its own life (literally) which sacrifices half its weapons in too many situations, and it lacks decent agility...which when combined with being bigger means it can't really afford to go either-or on Durability vs. Mobility like the ACH can.

Taking a Firestarter and doing well with it is just to show off your skills in Lights, but it is not really viable as was demonstrated in WC17 where every team using them got eliminated.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 July 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

No, it did not, not relative to everything else. As a point of fact, the ACH was one of the big "winners" in the patch that added both the Skill Tree and Engine Desync - 16 May 2017.



That's not a 'Mech problem, that's a weapon problem.



Firestarter is even worse than the Cheetah despite having better weapon options. It is much bigger, it cannot pitch its torso up or down to save its own life (literally) which sacrifices half its weapons in too many situations, and it lacks decent agility...which when combined with being bigger means it can't really afford to go either-or on Durability vs. Mobility like the ACH can.

Taking a Firestarter and doing well with it is just to show off your skills in Lights, but it is not really viable as was demonstrated in WC17 where every team using them got eliminated.

Yeah. Even FW saw and felt that. It was all Firestarters all the time - they were the IS light of choice overall and for good reason. Nimble, tough to hit, strong energy alpha that was reasonably heat sustainable. They were already considered really strong at the time and so when the ACH came out even better there was a lot of moaning.

Then rescale hit and the mobility nerfs and weapon nerfs later and the Firestarter was just.... bad. Weak. Somewhere in there the Huggin was a thing with strong SRM quirks, then the 4X was a thing with ERLLs. Then the Oxide was a thing. All of those were about the quirks. The Firestarter was originally reasonably strong without any real quirks (like 5 or 10% energy cooldown or heat or something like that) and then... whump.

ACH got its leg structure buffs dialed back but it didn't make a lot of difference. They were really strong up until the SPL nerf and MG buff.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 July 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

No, it did not, not relative to everything else. As a point of fact, the ACH was one of the big "winners" in the patch that added both the Skill Tree and Engine Desync - 16 May 2017.



That's not a 'Mech problem, that's a weapon problem.



Firestarter is even worse than the Cheetah despite having better weapon options. It is much bigger, it cannot pitch its torso up or down to save its own life (literally) which sacrifices half its weapons in too many situations, and it lacks decent agility...which when combined with being bigger means it can't really afford to go either-or on Durability vs. Mobility like the ACH can.

Taking a Firestarter and doing well with it is just to show off your skills in Lights, but it is not really viable as was demonstrated in WC17 where every team using them got eliminated.

The Cheetah's agility got hit "relatively" the same as other mechs, but as a close range brawler that same agility nerf hurt it much more than something that peeks, such as the Raven, or mechs that have a better size, such as the Locust, or mechs with better armor, such as the Urban. With Clan brawling weapons nerfed to the ground, there's just nothing the Cheetah can do well with at this point. MGs I guess, but it's **** tier compared to other MG mechs.

Yes, the ML nerf is a Cheetah problem, not a weapon problem, as my Hellbringer is still is dominant as ever with those things.

I'm not arguing that the Firestarter is good, I think both those mechs are ****. Maybe someone has better luck with the Cheetah, good for them. I think the Firestarter is just slightly better, which isn't saying much.

[Jman5]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 July 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

Taking a Firestarter and doing well with it is just to show off your skills in Lights, but it is not really viable as was demonstrated in WC17 where every team using them got eliminated.

By this logic you could label every mech brought by every team except EMP as non-viable. It's not about the builds. It's about the players behind the builds and the preparation leading up to the match.

[Y E O N N E]

Jman5, on 09 July 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

By this logic you could label every mech brought by every team except EMP as non-viable. It's not about the builds. It's about the players behind the builds and the preparation leading up to the match.

Not really, because:

1. Those teams got eliminated early and not necessarily by EmP

2. The FS9 possesses no unique capability that would grant it any sort of niche and is only inherently worse at doing what other similar 'Mechs can do

3. It's not always about the players behind the builds, you definitely can lose in the 'MechLab; see also 228WO getting cut to ribbons by Spiders on Tourmaline in 2016 because they brought no ERLL, similar happening to D5 late in the semifinals last year, and EmP losing a round to EON because their Canyon strat revolved around a hard lower push by a pair of MLX that got shot to pieces by Wolfhounds, forcing them to adapt and bring a WLF of their own.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 09 July 2018 - 12:47 AM, said:

The Cheetah's agility got hit "relatively" the same as other mechs, but as a close range brawler that same agility nerf hurt it much more than something that peeks, such as the Raven, or mechs that have a better size, such as the Locust, or mechs with better armor, such as the Urban. With Clan brawling weapons nerfed to the ground, there's just nothing the Cheetah can do well with at this point. MGs I guess, but it's **** tier compared to other MG mechs.

Locust is not, and never has been, a predominantly brawly 'Mech. The SPL build was always second-rate to the ML when it came time to play to win and, after rescale and engine decoupling, it was dead and gone from competitive decks while the ACH remained.

Quote

Yes, the ML nerf is a Cheetah problem, not a weapon problem, as my Hellbringer is still is dominant as ever with those things.

Not as dominant as you think it is, which was the point of the nerfs to heat, cooldown, and duration. It's not a Cheetah problem, because these weapons are suboptimal on any classic "fast" Light and, frankly, they always have been. At no point in the game's history was the ACH or JR7-IIC predominantly used with cERML or cMPL.

[adamts01]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 July 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

Locust is not, and never has been, a predominantly brawly 'Mech. The SPL build was always second-rate to the ML when it came time to play to win and, after rescale and engine decoupling, it was dead and gone from competitive decks while the ACH remained.


Not as dominant as you think it is, which was the point of the nerfs to heat, cooldown, and duration. It's not a Cheetah problem, because these weapons are suboptimal on any classic "fast" Light and, frankly, they always have been. At no point in the game's history was the ACH or JR7-IIC predominantly used with cERML or cMPL.

You keep bringing up the past. My entire point is that I agree with OP in that the current Cheetah is trash. The light nerf did hit it hard, but it held on because of Clan SPLs. With those gone there's just nothing it excels at, not a single thing. And ERMLs were never bad on any fast lights, they just didn't mesh with comp tactics, which honestly have very little in comment with 99% of this game. They were always a good option, up until they recently became too hot for the Cheetah to run.

Anyway, all that history doesn't really mean anything, as the current state of the game is what we have, and the Cheetah is garbage.

[Nightbird]

Cheeta is the best light in game, says me, #6 Jarl's pilot for season 22, while only piloting Cheetas in solo QP to prove a point.

[Haipyng]

Nightbird, on 09 July 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

Cheeta is the best light in game, says me, #6 Jarl's pilot for season 22, while only piloting Cheetas in solo QP to prove a point.

It is the most versatile light with it's Omnipods. You should be able to find a configuration that suits your play style. From MG backstabber to sniper it does it all. It's fairly forgiving armor wise as lights go too. It was the only light I'd still play before the PIR, which is a much more niche mech.

[Y E O N N E]

adamts01, on 09 July 2018 - 09:24 AM, said:

You keep bringing up the past. My entire point is that I agree with OP in that the current Cheetah is trash. The light nerf did hit it hard, but it held on because of Clan SPLs. With those gone there's just nothing it excels at, not a single thing. And ERMLs were never bad on any fast lights, they just didn't mesh with comp tactics, which honestly have very little in comment with 99% of this game. They were always a good option, up until they recently became too hot for the Cheetah to run.

Anyway, all that history doesn't really mean anything, as the current state of the game is what we have, and the Cheetah is garbage.

I am bringing up the past because you keep making comparisons to a past under the premise that the present is dramatically different in ways that it is not. The ACH lost its main role because its main gun was nerfed into oblivion; the changes to cERML are minuscule compared to what happened to cSPL; gained 0.3 heat, gained 0.1 seconds to duration? Tiny. Cooldown nerf doesn't even factor in, since it was always severely heat-capped. No. You are just way off-target with your assessment on how and why it isn't dominant like it used to be.

If we are just talking about QP, where 75% of your opponents and teammates are certifiable morons, the cERML still does just fine. If you can't get that to work at all, the problem exists between your keyboard and your chair.

[Quandoo]

What? It's the best light ingame, better than Pirnha
It's not hard to pull off 600dmg, the good rounds go for 900dmg.