154 replies to this topic

[Lethe Wyvern]

Seems to be polls are not allowed in General Discussion, so i made it in Feature Suggestions, here is the link to Poll

I am really curious and not trying to troll or something.

[Battlemaster56]

Well I voted the third option simply lights require a completely different playstyle compare to the latter with medium being somewhat the exception . But back to the point they need to do it differently that most typical medium heavy and assault pilots don't even think of and complain when lights are not playing like the latter or fight them "unfairly".

All it boils down to is perspective of the player that's it.

[Agent of Change]

Because they existed in canon and there are a lot of iconic designs.

But, beyond that, the general design PGI has pursued since even back in 2012 has largely made them irrelevant. There was hope when lip service was still being paid to some sort of 'role warfare', but that seems to have died a quiet death at the hands of being to difficult to implement in favor of much easier glorified arena death matches.

The fact of the matter is Lights and fast mediums existed for 2 major reasons in canon, As scouts and to handle 'light' threats primarily infantry, tanks, and tactical objectives. MWO lacks both of those. Since the direction of MWO has been consistently towards bashing two teams of robits together until one is wiped out there really isn't going to be a good role for lights to play, except as counter lights but even that job can be performed better by heavier mechs.

Scouting is largely irrelevant, not saying it can't be useful but it's not a role heavier mechs can't perform in MWO because most maps are small and all the fighting takes place in teh same places any way.

No "light targets" so lights don't have their primary canon reason for existing... I'm not sure this will ever change and likely it probably shouldn't given the current state of the game.

No objectives worth a damn, and the only game mode that isn't "skirmish plus" gets hate because *gasp* a team can lose even though they "crunched all da emenies but good, mech smassh". Without objectives that are meaningful enough within a frame work that precludes the default strategy of ball up and move together Lights are really robbed of thier last vestige of function.


Which is where you get to the big problem, lights robbed of a meaningful role in a game where big damage is the name of the game, team wipes are the primary objective, and only dealing damage and kills are a source of meaningful income to get through the grind most lights won't get run by anyone except for "reasons" which leaves us only the the corner case lights that get run with any regularity and you get people defending to the death mathematically broken mechs like the Piranha (which is combination of over lapping factors creating a perfect storm of obnoxious). The fear being obviously that a reduction in the effectiveness of that mech in particular with render it "useless" i.e. like most other lights because they have no meaningful place.

It's not to say that lights can't do well, or that people aren't good in light mechs it's just that most people won't run lights unless they have to or just feel like it, most folks won't run a light for effect unless it's the current broken mess. But those are just my thoughts on the subject.

Edited by Agent of Change, 09 July 2018 - 06:16 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Light mechs are in the game because of Faction Play tonnage limits. If you have a 265 tonnage drop deck, you get the choice of front-loading your tonnage and taking 1-2 light mechs, or taking a balanced deck. It makes for a more interesting dynamic. Like, i can take my ANH - WHM - WHM - COM deck, and while the COM is definitely weak, it gives me more power in the other mechs. Without light mechs I couldn't do that.

[Vxheous]

Why is this even a poll?

[Lethe Wyvern]

Agent of Change, on 09 July 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

Spoiler

Because they existed in canon and there are a lot of iconic designs.

But, beyond that, the general design PGI has pursued since even back in 2012 has largely made them irrelevant. There was hope when lip service was still being paid to some sort of 'role warfare', but that seems to have died a quiet death at the hands of being to difficult to implement in favor of much easier glorified arena death matches.

The fact of the matter is Lights and fast mediums existed for 2 major reasons in canon, As scouts and to handle 'light' threats primarily infantry, tanks, and tactical objectives. MWO lacks both of those. Since the direction of MWO has been consistently towards bashing two teams of robits together until one is wiped out there really isn't going to be a good role for lights to play, except as counter lights but even that job can be performed better by heavier mechs.

Scouting is largely irrelevant, not saying it can't be useful but it's not a role heavier mechs can't perform in MWO because most maps are small and all the fighting takes place in teh same places any way.

No "light targets" so lights don't have their primary canon reason for existing... I'm not sure this will ever change and likely it probably shouldn't given the current state of the game.

No objectives worth a damn, and the only game mode that isn't "skirmish plus" gets hate because *gasp* a team can lose even though they "crunched all da emenies but good, mech smassh". Without objectives that are meaningful enough within a frame work that precludes the default strategy of ball up and move together Lights are really robbed of thier last vestige of function.


Which is where you get to the big problem, lights robbed of a meaningful role in a game where big damage is the name of the game, team wipes are the primary objective, and only dealing damage and kills are a source of meaningful income to get through the grind most lights won't get run by anyone except for "reasons" which leaves us only the the corner case lights that get run with any regularity and you get people defending to the death mathematically broken mechs like the Piranha (which is combination of over lapping factors creating a perfect storm of obnoxious). The fear being obviously that a reduction in the effectiveness of that mech in particular with render it "useless" i.e. like most other lights because they have no meaningful place.

It's not to say that lights can't do well, or that people aren't good in light mechs it's just that most people won't run lights unless they have to or just feel like it, most folks won't run a light for effect unless it's the current broken mess. But those are just my thoughts on the subject.

Thank you for the expanded answer.

Vxheous, on 09 July 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

Why is this even a poll?

When the poll reaches the minimum sufficient number of votes then I will answer why and what I wanted to know. If I answer now, it can affect the outcome of the vote and distort the result.

[SCCOJake]

I'm going to second what Agent of Change said. We have discussed this before and are generally of the same mind. The light mechs don't actually serve much of a point in the current Quick Play/Team Play game modes. They might have a mathematical function in Faction Play, but for the majority of people they aren't actually very useful.

I admit that I'm still kind of new to the game, but its clear to me that unless you can find a particularly broken meta-mech build your lights are only their for harassing duty. Scouting is largely irreverent due to the fact that 99% of all games have the combat take place in the same location every time. You don't really need to know where the enemy is if everyone is going to the same grid square every game.

There are no worthwhile secondary objectives so the best a light can hope for is to prevent an enemy team from running down the clock on Domination maps before any shooting happens, or in rare cases, capturing enough points in conquest to win without having to do a team whip. That's it. Maybe you could make an argument for capturing the bases in Assault modes, but that's largely only a distraction tactic. In incursion lights typically aren't going to bring enough armor/firepower to knock out the defenses.

And then there is the fact that lights can actively detract from a teams chances for success. If a team packs too many lights then they won't have enough armor to share or enough firepower to dish out. And that's even if the lights stick with the deathball. If you don't bring enough tonnage to the fight you will typically lose. Not always, but usually.

So, lights don't really add much to the team, and they can even hurt the team in some situations. Thats the larger strategic overview from where I sit. As Agent said, you personally might do well in lights. You might love them and do amazing in them. But on the average, most people are either A] not running them much at all, or B] running them without any significant impact on the game or worse as a determent to their team. They are, sadly a niche mech at best and it would be really nice to see something positive done for them, but not just buffing their firepower or armor, they need a real role.

Edited by SCCOJake, 09 July 2018 - 07:17 AM.

[Korz]

There are several reasons for them. First a strategic and tactical reason. Reconnaissance, raiding, skirmishing ( hit and run combat). Second they are both cheaper to build and maintain. Third canon they existed for the other two reason so are included by PGI.

By not having role warfare they kind of lose the first reason for them. By not having a loss of mechs in the game the second reason is kind of taken out as well. Which means we have them for reason three.

Edited by Korz, 09 July 2018 - 06:42 AM.

[Nightbird]

Light mechs in MWO act as flankers, back stabbers to slow assaults, and enemy formation disruptors.

[Daggett]

In my experience light mechs are equally capable of contributing and even carrying than the other classes but are harder to play.

While most lights lack raw alpha they can mitigate this with their speed. Slower mechs have to stop firing regularly and for longer periods because of repositioning, while lights can fire much more often when played well. That's especially true compared to slow assaults like the Direwolf.

Sure, as soon the the assault survives the nascar and reaches the front he can deal lots of damage. But at this point a competent light pilot has already dealt several hundred points of damage so he can keep up the damage-race.

So sustained DPS is more complicated than just the number displayed in smurfy. In my opinion the faster a mech is, the more heat-efficient it should be to fully use every opportunity created by it's mobility.

Another factor which is not seen in the result screen is the confusion and panic a light can create. They can affect a match outcome just by being in the enemies backyard even without doing much damage.

Scouting however is not what a light in MWO should restrict itself to. A light that can't deal damage can not even distract a competent enemy. For example i happily ignore that iconic narc-raven when there are more dangerous targets to shoot at. Like the LRM boats that raven is supporting.

Edited by Daggett, 09 July 2018 - 06:56 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Nightbird, on 09 July 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Light mechs in MWO act as flankers, back stabbers to slow assaults, and enemy formation disruptors.

But honestly one can argue those roles can be performed as well or better by many mediums. It's not that you can't do any thing with lights, just that there really isn't anything lights can do that another class can't just do better.

I just wrote the following in a discord discussion so i'll just transfer it here because it's relevant:

Ideally [in a drop] there shoudl always be a relatively even mix of weights. The objective of a game should always be the mission goal;

• Lights are there to accomplish mission objectives and scout the enemy,
  
• Mediums are there to accomplish mission objectives and harrass enemy lights,
  
• Heavies exist to support the other classes and secure objectives,
  
• Assaults exist to push objectives and kill enemy mechs to make it easier for the other three to do their jobs.

That's how it SHOULD work, "Combined arms", but PGI moved away from that to the point where heavies are the preferred, Assaults are playing second fiddle in the face punching game in general thanks to the rate damage can be deployed vs. armor available, only some mediums really top perform but in general they can hang, and only broken lights are taken seriously.

Edited by Agent of Change, 09 July 2018 - 06:52 AM.

[Vesper11]

As a medium/assault pilot I think that lights at the current state of the game aren't needed at all, though I wish it wasn't so. Fast mediums can scout like lights while actually having weapons that could be used in CQC or for long range harassing while having some armor so they won't get killed that fast even with ******** hitboxes. Lights also require more skill to use but that skill also hard-counters them. Objectives and other **** is nice but PGI doesn't reward objective-based play so even here "PGI doesn't need them".
Knifefighting weapons need a buff to make speed dangerous, until then lights are disposable extras.

Edited by Vesper11, 09 July 2018 - 07:08 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Because they’re fun?

I’m a lousy light pilot, but every now and then I like taking one out. I really like the Grinner, and of course, the Urbie.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 09 July 2018 - 06:59 AM.

[Vesper11]

CFC Conky, on 09 July 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

Because they’re fun?

I’m a lousy light pilot, but every now and then I like taking one out. I really like the Grinner, and of course, the Urbie.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Trashcan isn't really a light, it's simply a very armored trashcan.

[Sjorpha]

No reason to generalize what lights are for, some are close range, some are long range, some are faster, some slower etc etc. Different niches just like other weight classes.

Also I like having small and fast available because it's fun to play.

They need to be effective in combat to have a place though, unless PGI starts making game modes where other things matter.

[Rusharn]

unless the light is a support mech like a Kit Fox, it should be very fast, in excess of 130kph. At those speeds they become hard to hit, and allows them to rapidly relocate, and kill isolated targets, especially if traveling in organized wolf packs. There is something to be said for the faster mediums, but the fastest of the light's rapid mobility allows them to respond faster to changes in the battle, and if used correctly can have amazing effects. However this does require greater battle field awareness then most other mechs to apply themselves at the critical time and position. As well a good light most likely will be a battle mech as the omni mechs tend not to have the the flexibility to fine tune loadout with optimum speed, for maximum performance.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Agent of Change, on 09 July 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

Which is where you get to the big problem, lights robbed of a meaningful role in a game where big damage is the name of the game, team wipes are the primary objective, and only dealing damage and kills are a source of meaningful income to get through the grind most lights won't get run by anyone except for "reasons"

Not that I'm trying to object your general assessment there, but the solution for that "big problem" in relation to the "obvious" deficits with regards to the "meaningful role" would be that Lights should be able to do competitive amounts of damage / killing, wouldn't it?

So ...

Agent of Change, on 09 July 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

which leaves us only the the corner case lights that get run with any regularity and you get people defending to the death mathematically broken mechs like the Piranha (which is combination of over lapping factors creating a perfect storm of obnoxious).

... I'm kind of intrigued by your claim that the Piranha is "mathematically broken" (care to actually prove that math beyond a variation of the "12dps with no heat"-statement that supposedly is self-evident?!) and the notion that anything but "corner case" lights (which ones would those be? what makes them "corner cases"?) simply isn't run regularly.

Agent of Change, on 09 July 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

The fear being obviously that a reduction in the effectiveness of that mech in particular with render it "useless" i.e. like most other lights because they have no meaningful place.

That's the really fun part: Numbers of Piranhas have started to drop already - just as they did after initial release - so the "regularity" of seeing them is also in decline ... Makes me wonder if the alleged "effectiveness" of the mech is not so high after all and the "obvious" motivaton that the "defenders" of said mech have - by your "factual assessment" - isn't correctly identified either.

Agent of Change, on 09 July 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

But those are just my thoughts on the subject.

Good, so it's opinion and not as much fact as your choice of word suggests.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 09 July 2018 - 07:40 AM.

[Vesper11]

I want to say I agree with it, Daggett, but...

Daggett, on 09 July 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

While most lights lack raw alpha they can mitigate this with their speed. Slower mechs have to stop firing regularly and for longer periods because of repositioning, while lights can fire much more often when played well. That's especially true compared to slow assaults like the Direwolf.

This also works for meds, but lights, due to tonnage, often have to use light (usually knifefighting tier) weapons which means that they are at greater risk and unlike meds than can simply hide behind the hill/wall they were peeking from lights are at mercy of enemy skill. If, in my fast medium, I see a light harassing someone, I go after it, if it doesn't disengage immediately and run away it risks losing leg because fast mediums can keep with them long enough to slice their legs off.

Daggett, on 09 July 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Sure, as soon the the assault survives the nascar and reaches the front he can deal lots of damage. But at this point a competent light pilot has already dealt several hundred points of damage so he can keep up the damage-race.

Nascar is bad example where fastest mechs shine and **** (but it's QP) tactic, I often wish team would stop to regroup in a good position into firing line and meet nascar champions with a few good alphas.

Daggett, on 09 July 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

So sustained DPS is more complicated than just the number displayed in smurfy. In my opinion the faster a mech is, the more heat-efficient it should be to fully use every opportunity created by it's mobility.

Unrelated to lights but cold assaults are nice too, you simply shove it into the enemy face until they overheat and can't effectively DPS anymore, assault armor allows it.
IMO, what lights need more is burst damage, not heat efficiency as they can disengage and cool down at any time.

Daggett, on 09 July 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Another factor which is not seen in the result screen is the confusion and panic a light can create. They can affect a match outcome just by being in the enemies backyard even without doing much damage.

It could affect the match more if the peek meta wasn't the meta. Wasting some time (as even in QP people don't chase lights as much as they used to) on lights when in cover isn't very crucial, it's distracting enemy right before the push when it's really dangerous, but I don't see a lot of those nowadays.

Edited by Vesper11, 09 July 2018 - 07:49 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:08 AM, said:

Trashcan isn't really a light, it's simply a very armored trashcan.

Lol, ok, I’ll give you that, I have fun in my Oxide as well.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Haipyng]

CFC Conky, on 09 July 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

Lol, ok, I’ll give you that, I have fun in my Oxide as well.

As much as the Urbie looks like a Trashcan, I find the Jenners to look a bit like toilets with legs.