181 replies to this topic

[Rusharn]

I have mixed opinions. The Piranha's small size, makes it hard to get a convergence lock on it so often you are raking it with laser fire. Also on some of the taller assaults, even if they have arm weapons if you hug their legs they can't even see the top of you target box, so trying to figure out where to arm those arm weapons becomes a trick. The Hit Reg System works in favor of fast moving mech's often making what looks like a visual hit on your screen actually be a miss, especially if the Piranha is running under a lag shield.

On the reverse they are vulnerable to other fast movers that have more armor and good speed. Played a match yesterday on river city where four Pir-1 went oceanside and our lights two Shard MG boats, A firer starter, and a Pirate's bane, charged out to engage them, and they lost 4 to our 1 fire starter, and the rest of us where in pretty good shape and wolf packed their assault lance for the win. My king crab and Marauder IIc's, ride low enough that a Pir trying to leg hump them often dies to UAC or AC fire, often a single AC 20 hit is enough to cripple or destroy a Piranha.

I think most issues could be solved by increasing the torso ranges and speed on assault mech or switching the skill tree to set torso speed and angle values instead of percentages. They way it a pilots choice on if he want to be more vulnerable to that kind of attack or not.

[Anastasius Foht]

t-r-r-r-r-r-r-r you lost ur torso

[Gwahlur]

Rusharn, on 20 July 2018 - 07:31 AM, said:

Also on some of the taller assaults, even if they have arm weapons if you hug their legs they can't even see the top of you target box, so trying to figure out where to arm those arm weapons becomes a trick.

This is a real problem

[East Indy]

justcallme A S H, on 19 July 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

Problem is it is ONLY a problem for MG Boating mechs, same as most issues with the game - it requires you to boat now, more than ever.

Yup. Something as simple as increasing the cone of fire per machine guns fired would do it perfectly: a small number would be accurate, many would be far less accurate, giving players choices not only about how to use hardpoints but which 'Mechs to pick since fewer hardpoints would have value.

But . . . PGI seems to still want to nerf individual weapons, giving the wheel another turn.

[Weeny Machine]

Oh man, as soon as there is a light which cannot so easily be ignored (which need to get in short range, has no ecm, and much more) all the heavy and assault fanboys want to nerf it while at the same time accepting without even twitching that a light gets hardcountered by streaks or can be shredded by one huge alpha. Double standards...


Ask yourself the question: if MG boating is so op, why aren't we swamped in PIR-1s? Usually you see one PIR (if at all) max 2 per team.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 20 July 2018 - 10:10 AM.

[Lances107]

Machine guns critting on unarmored components is a aspect of the game. A mechanic. If you want everything bland I suggest you got to a game, where they are fine making everything generic, so there is never any possibility of difficulty.

I have run machine guns on fresh forward components, you run out of bullets, before you get anywhere. When you are dealing with assaults, heavies, and mediums. The back is the best way to go because most people front load there armor. If you only have 5 points or less in the rear of your armor, well of course a light is going to have a field day with your mech. If you have 10 points or more in your back, you should be aware of what is happening, and move where your team mates are to kill the light.

[Mystere]

East Indy, on 20 July 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yup. Something as simple as increasing the cone of fire per machine guns fired would do it perfectly: a small number would be accurate, many would be far less accurate, giving players choices not only about how to use hardpoints but which 'Mechs to pick since fewer hardpoints would have value.

Why apply that only on MGs and not ALL weapons?

[East Indy]

Mystere, on 20 July 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Why apply that only on MGs and not ALL weapons?

Strictly speaking, because cones of fire remove a degree of player control, and currently machine guns are the only weapon that players should expect to do this. Diminishing returns for other weapons can be accomplished in other ways that preserve accuracy of at least the first shot.

Practically, though, this thread is about machine guns, so I just left it there.

[Bulletsponge0]

StrikerSW, on 19 July 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Running Grim tonight, Sunspider at full Armor and a Piranha strafes my back armor from a distance of perhaps 300 feet. I loose a heat sink and medium pulse laser, overall armor drops to 94 %. Not the end of the world, but really full armor, and machine guns are already stripping components.

PGI is so concerned about balancing the game which is suppose to be a simulation. Machine gun rounds should not strip components unless the mech's armor is opened up. Machine guns should be ineffective unless the armor has been removed.

Just blowing off steam since I know this is useless to complain about.

How much back armor do you have? The common PIR-1 build is 3 heavy small lasers and 12 MGs. the 3 heavy smalls will deal 18 damage. its likely you were hit by those first, stripping your armor, and then the MGs got some crits.

[Nightbird]

6% damage in the back is at least 60 damage. If it was me you would have lost a ST for allowing that much free back damage.

[Monkey Lover]

Crit system for lasers is just as bad. I can be 1000m+ away some er lasers at 99% of its max range will brush me and it will crit my weapons.

Crits need to be based on range and time on target.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 20 July 2018 - 12:43 PM.

[Mystere]

East Indy, on 20 July 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

Strictly speaking, because cones of fire remove a degree of player control, and currently machine guns are the only weapon that players should expect to do this. Diminishing returns for other weapons can be accomplished in other ways that preserve accuracy of at least the first shot.

Practically, though, this thread is about machine guns, so I just left it there.

That's what I meant -- diminishing returns for each additional weapon fired.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 July 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

You would think so because of equipment health, but honestly the size (and therefore chance of getting hit) matters far more. An IS UAC/10 goes poof before a Clan one does.



Maybe, maybe not. I'm critting out things like crazy with my Fire Ant and with my Ember, though obviously it doesn't secure the kill quite as well as the Piranha or Mist Lynx.

Frankly, it's because of the ridiculous crit rate that even LMGs have to hit like so many grains of rice and spread to the point where their range is largely ceremonial, and that HMGs continue to have terrible ammo count. You don't need many to savage internal components, even just 4 will do.

Yeah but that is a result of the timeline is silly changes...

~18 months+ ago - Equipment health changed (lowered). This was to crit out weapons/equipment easier once armour was gone.
~12 months ago - Light mechs with inflated ballistic Omni are released. Due to the equipment health nerf from 6 months earlier. ACH/MLX and MG boating is reasonably powerful. Weapons are crit quite fast.
~6 months ago - PIR-1 comes out... 12MGs, boated, only makes the above problem worse, much worse.

Would the problem be "as bad" as it is now if the equip HP change didn't go through ~18months ago? Against PIR-1 probably not but against the ACH/MLX absolutely it would. IMO the equipment change was very, very silly and should never have happened as it was a pretty big nerf.

As you said IS hurts more as they take up more slots. That said the clan Equip does have a lower HP or whatever from memory of the changes, not that it matters in the face of 12MGs.

But then that said a PIR can be so easily one-shot CT/torso. Effectively maiming them if you do take a torso (missing a CT shot etc). It's no different to say the Deathstrike. Some people do 200dmg in them game in/out, some do 900.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 July 2018 - 04:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

justcallme A S H, on 20 July 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

Would the problem be "as bad" as it is now if the equip HP change didn't go through ~18months ago? Against PIR-1 probably not but against the ACH/MLX absolutely it would. IMO the equipment change was very, very silly and should never have happened as it was a pretty big nerf.

It would be exactly as bad. You don't remember AC/20s and Gauss being insta-crit before the health change? It was obnoxious then, and it still is, now despite IS gear having more hitpoints. The largest change is that now even lasers get crit regularly where it was a rare occurrence before.

I agree that it was a silly change, at least the values they chose. The idea that you get more health for more slots was at least a good one, the execution was bad though.

Quote

As you said IS hurts more as they take up more slots. That said the clan Equip does have a lower HP or whatever from memory of the changes, not that it matters in the face of 12MGs.

But then that said a PIR can be so easily one-shot CT/torso. Effectively maiming them if you do take a torso (missing a CT shot etc). It's no different to say the Deathstrike. Some people do 200dmg in them game in/out, some do 900.

Oh I'm not here to complain about the Piranha. I'm only here to say that it isn't fun to have all of your firepower destroyed while most of your 'Mech remains intact. A well-played MG boat doesn't even have to wait for late game and open armor, it can open armor just fine by itself, so it's not like there's some sort of trade-off between being a late-game monster versus having the ability to work early game: it works at all points during a typical match.

[Damnedtroll]

Put some streak 6 on an Atlas for a try this week, got a fish dead in an instant in my first game played with it. Piranha are blown in pieces with streak, they don't come to bother you if you start shooting them with it.

Still crits number with mg is phenomenal, it's the selling point of mg. We don't have any infantry to shot at and it's a dedicated weapon against infantry, like flamer who would be useful to do smoke screen while burning stuff. Small pulse and small laser are more anti infantry weapons... why using a large laser or a gauss to melt a guy with a rifle...

So mg like other small weapons need to be useful or fall in the shadow. Right now mg are the most useful. Remember the boating of clan er small or small pulses without ghost heat ? We don't see a lot of them anymore... would be the same with mg.

[Y E O N N E]

Clan ER Small and Small Pulse have never not had ghost heat. They have always been limited to 6 and they have always been linked with Medium-class lasers. All that happene is the cERSL heat, cooldown, and duration got worse while cSPL damage got cut by 33%.

As for MGs, we can always increase the damage to compensate for the reduced crit-rate. I would even prefer that.

[Brenden]

StrikerSW, on 19 July 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Running Grim tonight, Sunspider at full Armor and a Piranha strafes my back armor from a distance of perhaps 300 feet. I loose a heat sink and medium pulse laser, overall armor drops to 94 %. Not the end of the world, but really full armor, and machine guns are already stripping components.

PGI is so concerned about balancing the game which is suppose to be a simulation. Machine gun rounds should not strip components unless the mech's armor is opened up. Machine guns should be ineffective unless the armor has been removed.

Just blowing off steam since I know this is useless to complain about.

Don't have paper thin armor next time and you won't get shredded.

[Mech Ranger]

yes, i know it's good when u put a lot of them in pir-1 or mlx, but it is not simply because mg is too imba, it's bacause the quantity of mg they can carry is too many ,and those tiny mech r too fast and small to shoot back


Actually , if u think about it , machine gun is a kind of stupid weapon, low damage , loooooong face time, short range

although they r no heat , no limit, small weight ~, which means , it's hardly to find other weapons to coordinate except flamer~

so, the thing pgi should do is nerf pir-1 or mlx instead of simply nerf mg~

Edited by Mech Ranger, 20 July 2018 - 08:51 PM.

[JediPanther]

Mech Ranger, on 20 July 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:

Actually , if u think about it , machine gun is a kind of stupid weapon, low damage , loooooong face time, short range

The lmg the mg nearly all pir use is 500m range. 500m or more for IS depending on quirks and fire power tree range nodes. The long face time is true which is why almost all mg boats have 2-3 lasers so they can cut open armor. My Ember has 4 spls to cut open armor and 4 lmgs with 4-5 tons ammo. With it's 25% rof quirk the ammo goes dry fast and most of my actual damage comes from the 4 spls.

If your mech is already striped of armor you're just that much easier to crit out at range and doa soon as the lights' wolf pack you.

[Y E O N N E]

Most Piranhas are not using LMGs. They are only 70% as powerful and it's not worth it on a 'Mech so fast.