44 replies to this topic

[frumpylumps]

I've been looking to play a support mech for LRM maps and what I've noticed is that the Clan AMS support have significantly more missile killing power to what IS has to offer, and this appears to constitute a gross imbalance.

CLAN:

Kitfox variant has 3 AMS with +%5 Rate of fire and 10% range + ECM

Nova variant has 3 AMS with +%30 Rate of fire.

Piranha variant has 4 AMS

IS:

Wolfhound vartian 2 AMS with +20% range

Javelin variant with 2 AMS with +10 Rate of fire.


How is it fair that one side has support mechs that can kill missiles over 80% better than the best of the other?

PGI, please add IS mechs with 3xAMS or give better perks to compensate.

Edited by frumpylumps, 22 July 2018 - 07:45 PM.

[LordNothing]

clans fire their lrms one at a time so they are a lot easier for the ams system to intercept. their atms are too few in number to get through. so the is doesnt need the maximum saturation that clan has. is lrms all come in at the same time making it very hard to intercept those missiles, therefore clan needs denser ams screens.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 22 July 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

clans fire their lrms one at a time so they are a lot easier for the ams system to intercept. their atms are too few in number to get through. so the is doesnt need the maximum saturation that clan has. is lrms all come in at the same time making it very hard to intercept those missiles, therefore clan needs denser ams screens.

That doesn't change the fact that the Clams can have more AMS hardpoints on specific mechs to use against both factions (including enemy Clammers). This game isn't just purely IS vs. Clam.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that the Clams can have more AMS hardpoints on specific mechs to use against both factions (including enemy Clammers). This game isn't just purely IS vs. Clam.

yea but it is one of those things to differentiate the techbases. want to boat ams then go clan. besides 2 + ams quirks is usually enough.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 July 2018 - 08:16 PM.

[dante245]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that the Clams can have more AMS hardpoints on specific mechs to use against both factions (including enemy Clammers). This game isn't just purely IS vs. Clam.

agreed. but i do believe there are a few IS mechs that have 2 to 3 AMs hard points" none with 4 but ..considering the size of the piranha, its rather difficult to make viable running 4 ams on it". "correction...just checked..ZERO IS mechs have 3 AMS.

[Jackal Noble]

it's non factor. Clan missiles shoot in a stream.
A single IS AMS is more effective at nullifying Clan LRMs vs say, 2 Clan AMS vs IS lrms.

[El Bandito]

IS AMS family should be slightly superior than Clan AMS family since IS ones cost more tonnage/slots.

Jackal Noble, on 22 July 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

it's non factor. Clan missiles shoot in a stream.
A single IS AMS is more effective at nullifying Clan LRMs vs say, 2 Clan AMS vs IS lrms.

Partially correct, as Clan LRMs cost only half as much as IS ones so Clan mechs can have more missiles in the sky.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 July 2018 - 09:28 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

dante245, on 22 July 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

agreed. but i do believe there are a few IS mechs that have 2 to 3 AMs hard points" none with 4 but ..considering the size of the piranha, its rather difficult to make viable running 4 ams on it". "correction...just checked..ZERO IS mechs have 3 AMS.

There are no IS 'Mechs with more than 2 AMS currently in the game.

And it's not just AMS count, it's also quirks. Here is a list of all of the 'Mechs with AMS quirks:

IS:

JVN-10F (10% Rate of Fire, 2x AMS)
JVN-10N (10% Rate of Fire, 2x AMS)
WLF-1B (20% Range, 2x AMS).

Clans:

MLX (20% Rate of Fire + 10% Range, 2x AMS)
KFX (5% Rate of Fire + 10% Range, 3x AMS)
ADR (10% Rate of Fire, 1x AMS)
IFR (10% Range + 10% Rate of Fire, 2x AMS)
SHC (7.5% Rate of Fre + 5% Range, 1x AMS)
NVA (30% Rate of Fire, 3x AMS)
SMN (20% Rate of Fire, 15% Range, 2x AMS)

...and that's before any Set of 8 effects, if there are any.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 July 2018 - 09:37 PM.

[Spheroid]

Yeah so what. Play that free Nova PGI gave you.

I don't see how it matters, you don't strike me as the faction warfare type. Anything goes in QP. Bring what you deem is appropriate.

[Phoenix 72]

Spheroid, on 22 July 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

Yeah so what. Play that free Nova PGI gave you.

I like the Nova, it is one of my favourite Mechs. But you would not believe how often it gets overwhelmed with missiles in quick play. Too many people playing long range / sniping / poptarting builds and not enough people willing to sacrifice some armour for the team. Too many Support Mechs with nothing to support, I guess.

[Spheroid]

Playing support is for suckers. The only path that will lead you down is to the poor house(just like NARCing).

Notice the low payout, but high matchscore? Not very useful.



Build to kill.

Edited by Spheroid, 22 July 2018 - 10:36 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

I see you missing out on that sweet premium time bonus

[Vesper11]

Difference in doctrine, almost every IS mech (Cicada X-5 being the only exception) has AMS hardpoint where clan has few mechs with AMS but some are dedicated supports. Just check https://mech.nav-alpha.com/ and click AMS and see how the list changes.

Speaking about nova, having hardpoints is its only redeeming feature, it has no speed, no armor, no endo or ferro.

Edited by Vesper11, 23 July 2018 - 12:25 AM.

[DRlFTER]

I’m sure ATM users wouldn’t be too thrilled to see triple AMS on the IS side.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

While we're at it, i demand a stealth armor based Clan narcer. Oh, this is not the "make a wish thread"?

[Savage Wolf]

It would more sense to buff the IS AMS as someone already suggested since it weighs more aka. should be better.

But really, it would be much better if they just removed AMS altogether and could then properly balance missile weapons accordingly. Ballistics and Energy weapons aren't dependent on what your random enemies might bring, why should missiles be?

[Abaddun]

Savage Wolf, on 23 July 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

It would more sense to buff the IS AMS as someone already suggested since it weighs more aka. should be better.

But really, it would be much better if they just removed AMS altogether and could then properly balance missile weapons accordingly. Ballistics and Energy weapons aren't dependent on what your random enemies might bring, why should missiles be?

Because most missiles have a homing capability that negates piloting skill unless you are really, really close. And just because it weighs more doesn't automatically mean it should be better. Whilst I still loathe Clanners and their Clan tech crutches, low tonnage high performance gear is their shtick, balanced by overwhelming build extremes. It doesn't always work out( see deathstrike, hellbringer shenanigans) but the later we get in the timeline the closer the techs become.

[Savage Wolf]

Abaddun, on 23 July 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

Because most missiles have a homing capability that negates piloting skill unless you are really, really close.

...what!?

Abaddun, on 23 July 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

And just because it weighs more doesn't automatically mean it should be better.

Yes. Yes, that is exactly how it works, otherwise the other is objectively better.

Abaddun, on 23 July 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

Whilst I still loathe Clanners and their Clan tech crutches, low tonnage high performance gear is their shtick, balanced by overwhelming build extremes. It doesn't always work out( see deathstrike, hellbringer shenanigans) but the later we get in the timeline the closer the techs become.

Not really. The two techbases become more unique and diverse, but IS never figures out how to make their weapons weigh less or use less slots. Not without weakening performance where clan often even had higher performance. Not even in Dark Ages have the IS improved any of their existing tech. All they did was create more options.

[Marlowe Lecter]

FupDup, on 22 July 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that the Clams can have more AMS hardpoints on specific mechs to use against both factions (including enemy Clammers). This game isn't just purely IS vs. Clam.

You do realize you just solved your own problem here right? The stated reason for the AMS difference works in Faction Play and in QP you can play a Clan mech with the triple AMS you are asking for. Now if you are refusing to drive a Clan mech for some RP reason thats on you not PGI to fix.
(A note on that point - Inner Sphere folks would happily salvage Clan tech and use it. So you can just ignore the silly Clan command voice when you drop and pretend you're IS. Hell you can even stick a bunch of "FREEBORN" and IS house stickers all over the mech if you have those decals) All it takes is a little creativity and you can "fix" the game for yourself with no one having to code anything.

[Savage Wolf]

Marlowe Lecter, on 23 July 2018 - 05:21 AM, said:

You do realize you just solved your own problem here right? The stated reason for the AMS difference works in Faction Play and in QP you can play a Clan mech with the triple AMS you are asking for. Now if you are refusing to drive a Clan mech for some RP reason thats on you not PGI to fix.
(A note on that point - Inner Sphere folks would happily salvage Clan tech and use it. So you can just ignore the silly Clan command voice when you drop and pretend you're IS. Hell you can even stick a bunch of "FREEBORN" and IS house stickers all over the mech if you have those decals) All it takes is a little creativity and you can "fix" the game for yourself with no one having to code anything.

So the fix for inbalance is for everyone to use whatever is currently OP. Got it.