157 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

ations of weapons that circumvent ghost heat. the glaring loopholes in ghost heat are precisely what needs to be fixed.

Then you are back to ED where boating single types of weapons are more rampant than before, congrats you have now actually made builds less diverse than they already are.....we already had a number of PTS PROVE this, why do you guys still think like that will magically change?

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

dont even need to remove convergence. just need to fix ghost heat so it can deal with combinations of weapons better. that is a far less invasive solution than removing convergence.

Ghost heat won't solve this, lest we go down the route that PPCs/Gauss already went down.

Whether the meta be Gauss/PPC or Gauss Vomit, there is one common denominator: Gauss. What makes it so strong in combination with high heat energy weapons? Virtually no heat and the projectile speed being able to sync with lasers, but the latter should be encouraged not discouraged. Actually give the Gauss heat and you suddenly hurt that combination. Buffing the Gauss's ballistic competition would also help (specifically in the velocity department).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 July 2018 - 10:53 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

brroleg, on 25 July 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

This will make that you will need separately aim each group of weapon mounts. Boom! Fixed high alpha problem. Boom! Fixed pinpoint damage problem. Boom! Fixed time to kill problem. Etc.

TTK, PPFLD, and convergence are just buzzwords. It doesn't mean anything and people have been posting this nonsense for years and luckily PGI did ignore this stuff.

Regardless of the TTK, turning a corner and doing a 12v1 or b-lining into the enemy is going to result in instagibs. Its just catering to the bottomfeeder tiers and pushing away the above average players.

Luckily PGI ignores suggestions like this, but, they are catering to this line of thinking by trying to make us Chainfire damage so that we sandblast each other rather than going for the quicker killshots.

I got this novel idea though for everyone in the meantime, its called twist your torsos.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 30 July 2018 - 11:03 AM.

[Josh Seles]

I'd much rather see a reduction of heat capacity with a buff to dissipation as a high-alpha solution.
I'd rather see Enegy draw as a solution to alphas.
Of course, my preferred solution is a combination of reduced heat capacity and Energy Draw as a limit to both heat and damage.
Now that would curb high alphas

Removing convergence just forces high alphas in arm mounts and doesn't solve the problem.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 July 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Then you are back to ED where boating single types of weapons are more rampant than before, congrats you have now actually made builds less diverse than they already are.....we already had a number of PTS PROVE this, why do you guys still think like that will magically change?

youre not back to energy draw. because im not proposing energy draw. just closing the obvious loopholes in ghost heat. energy draw was ridiculous, we already have a heat bar, we dont need an energy bar too. everything should just be handled using the heat system.

besides people will always gravitate towards boating similiar type weapons. because its easier to play that way. thats just an undeniable fact of the game. and you arnt going to change that.

I mean think about it. why would you want a bunch of dissimilar weapons with different ranges and different firing profiles? when instead you could just have a bunch of similar weapons with the same range and same firing profile? which is easier? the latter obviously...

bracket builds will always be dead in MWO for that reason. thats the whole reason PGI had to force stockbuilds on competitive players to get bracket builds into the game.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 July 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Ghost heat won't solve this, lest we go down the route that PPCs/Gauss already went down.

While ghost heat isnt ideal, closing the loopholes in ghost heat it will solve the problem better than removing convergence will.

Removing convergence would create a massive upset to the game. it would ruin the game outright for many players because of the invasive nature of the solution. so you cant really call that a solution.

Ghost heat is already something players are accustomed to. So thats what should be fixed. The combination of ghostheat without loopholes and proper balance of weapons should be more than sufficient.

Edited by Khobai, 30 July 2018 - 02:17 PM.

[InspectorG]

brroleg, on 25 July 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

This will make that you will need separately aim each group of weapon mounts. Boom! Fixed high alpha problem. Boom! Fixed pinpoint damage problem. Boom! Fixed time to kill problem. Etc.

You are a few years late on this...

[HammerMaster]

All this non-BattleTech band-aid drek to fix what is essentially the main problem: pinpoint convergence. (Which is not BattleTech)

Ghost-heat. Band-aid
Energy draw. Band-aid
Gauss charge. Band-aid
Quirks. Band-aid
New energy balance PTS. Band-aid.
Pattern?

Edited by HammerMaster, 30 July 2018 - 02:45 PM.

[Mystere]

Eisenhorne, on 30 July 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

lol how? your weapons don't converge to a point so you can't target fire!

Of course they do in a system where users are allowed to set their own default convergence point.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

Removing convergence would create a massive upset to the game. it would ruin the game outright for many players because of the invasive nature of the solution. so you cant really call that a solution.

Sometimes invasive surgery is the only recourse for a very sick patient.

Edited by Mystere, 30 July 2018 - 02:53 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

youre not back to energy draw. because im not proposing energy draw. just closing the obvious loopholes in ghost heat.

Except that was the exact problem with ED, it closed loopholes that made builds not devolve into boating the same thing over and over. The more loopholes you close the more you incentivize just stacking the same thing over.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

besides people will always gravitate towards boating similiar type weapons. because its easier to play that way. thats just an undeniable fact of the game. and you arnt going to change that.

This is true to a point, the fact Gauss+PPC and Gauss vomit were better than pure boats should tell you that this isn't true. If you penalize boats enough to offset the efficiency you gain from stacking those weapons then you've done your job.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

bracket builds will always be dead in MWO for that reason. thats the whole reason PGI had to force stockbuilds on competitive players to get bracket builds into the game.

Actually, at some point there were a couple of bracket builds in comp but they were niche (ERPPC/ERSL Hunchie IIC being the biggest example), but nowhere did I suggest that what I'm going for is bracket builds........Gauss/PPC and Gauss Vomit aren't really bracket builds nor do they have the exact same firing behaviors.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

While ghost heat isnt ideal, closing the loopholes in ghost heat it will solve the problem better than removing convergence will.

It solves a problem and creates more, both "solutions" are problematic.

[Khobai]

Quote

the fact Gauss+PPC and Gauss vomit were better than pure boats should tell you that this isn't true.

Gauss+PPC were similar type weapons though. they had massive synergy with eachother.

both were PPFLD. both had similar velocity at one time. and they had similar range.

once you learned to play around gauss chargeup they still fired simultaneously too.

like I said, players will always gravitate towards boating similar type weapons. usually whatever combination of similar type weapons gives them the best mix of damage and range.

Quote

It solves a problem and creates more, both "solutions" are problematic.

I agree both solutions are problematic.

The difference is we already have ghost heat in place and are aware of its problems.

Makes more sense to fix that than abandon it and implement a complete unknown. Especially when it will upset many players and cause them to quit the game.

Removing convergence would result in the immediate death of this game at this point. Its too late for that.

Edited by Khobai, 30 July 2018 - 03:03 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Well I'M advocating bracket builds.
We're it up to me we'd all be running stock. Working your way up to super stock after grinding time effort and techs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:54 PM, said:

Gauss+PPC were similar type weapons though. they had massive synergy with eachother.

both were PPFLD. both had similar velocity at one time. and they had similar range.

once you learned to play around gauss chargeup they still fired simultaneously too.

You don't fire them simultaneously unless the target is standing still because of the difference velocity. It still reduces the efficacy compared to a pure boat which I'd say is a better situation than just shifting the game to be about pure boats.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 02:54 PM, said:

like I said, players will always gravitate towards boating similar type weapons. usually whatever combination of similar type weapons gives them the best mix of damage and range.

The point of ghost heat isn't to force bracket builds, but to force something other than single weapon type boats.

[DFM]

SFC174, on 25 July 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

I kinda like it. I mean, it has a real world vibe to it (yes, I know, sci-fi non-reality game here). However, parallel firing would not occur for the torso weapons if the mech designers and mechanics had any sort of clue. You'd have the guns zero'd on a certain target distance. That distance could be the optimum range of the weapon, or you could have all guns zero'd at the same distance.

I kind of like the idea that you could choose your convergence point in the mech lab. For example, if I were using a Clan lasvomit setup (say, a HBR), I'd probably choose my zero range to be about 550-600m. Anything from 450-650m would be nearly pinpoint. However, at longer ranges you'd spread a lot and up close you'd be painting all sorts of places besides your aim point. Would add some fun and even more customizing to the game.

That said, I don't think it'll ever happen, particularly not with cryengine.

Even changeable in game with something like Numpad +/- to change the distance of convergence. Not a perfect solution, and there's other things imo more important to fix(even if changes are unlikely) but I think it would work. Brawlers have the advantage against snipers up close when the sniper convergence isn't perfect and vice versa.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

what is the Problem with Pinpoint ? thats brawlers nor can 2km run over open field without kill by Focus Fire from 4 Mechs ? or thats better players kills bad players fast? seeing the Board Game ..nd the tT was stupid ...to hell , a Pilot thats not can aim single parts from a 12m Tall Machine in 30m and hit the right feet of the Enemy with a Shoulder Canon is stupid...here to many in minds from the Trashing Novels with Fiights over 20 Booksites ...no Mech in TT or by HBS stands over 1 Hour in field in focus fire

Play with tactical awarness...cover ...and Team and you have a high TTK ...play bad or have a bad Team you have a Less TTK

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 30 July 2018 - 06:17 PM.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 30 July 2018 - 07:26 AM, said:

Dude.. HSR did not even exist at that time. I know you know, cause you were their as well. But HSR, after being added, caused the issues I wrote about and thusly delayed convergence was removed.

Sigh!

In other words, delayed convergence was removed because it did not play well with HSR after the latter was added.

I thought that was obvious enough.

Imperius, on 30 July 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

Stop suggesting removal of convergence. Done.

No.

After 5 years of balance circle-jerking that has gone full circle several times over, something else needs to be done.

Edited by Mystere, 30 July 2018 - 06:46 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

There are certainly players who just love the brawl and would love to play the game like an oversized knight ( bad english Longbow archers ) as a beat em up or read godzilla game ... there are S7 and they should not try to force their style on others, or Forget how stupid your Brawlmech would look against the airborne hunters present in the board game (waving the ax) or against Thunder LRMS or Longtom.

or make it like War thunder ..a Convergence Range thats set before the battle ...
and in most games there are even estimates for moving targets which are missing in MWO, here you have to estimate the lead angle yourself

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 30 July 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

1930s targeting technology is lostech.

[Kin3ticX]

HammerMaster, on 30 July 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

Well I'M advocating bracket builds.
We're it up to me we'd all be running stock. Working your way up to super stock after grinding time effort and techs.

game would have never lasted this long

[AncientRaig]

Except that's not how it works. Torso mounted weapons are mounted on gimbals with limited traverse. They can make some degree of adjustment in order to hit targets in front of them. It technically should be quick enough to keep up with the arms as long as they're in the torso's arc (like you see in MW3 or MWLL), but PGI either can't code that or they chose not to.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 July 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

You don't fire them simultaneously unless the target is standing still because of the difference velocity.

read what I said. their velocity was similar AT ONE TIME

PGI eventually nerfed PPC velocity in an effort to try and stop people from firing PPC/Gauss together.

but it turned out that wasnt enough. because you could just fire the gauss with a delay so it still hit at the same time as the PPC. thats why they linked them for ghost heat. to completely prevent them from being used together.

PPC/Gauss were always similar enough to complement eachother. And players always gravitated towards boating as many similar type weapons as they could; because it allowed them to do the most damage while still circumventing ghost heat. Nothing will ever change that.

Im of the opinion that boating isnt really a problem as long as its kept reasonably in check by ghost heat. And again its the loopholes in ghost heat that are the problem. The loopholes need to be completely closed off.

Mixing weapons with similar characteristics (like medium and large lasers) should not be able to circumvent ghost heat.

AncientRaig, on 30 July 2018 - 08:35 PM, said:

Except that's not how it works. Torso mounted weapons are mounted on gimbals with limited traverse.

Yep. Even in tabletop battletech torso mounted weapons can fire in a pretty wide forward arc and not just straight ahead. That implies theyre in gimbal mounts.

Edited by Khobai, 30 July 2018 - 09:08 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

read what I said. their velocity was similar AT ONE TIME

A time so long ago as to not even be relevant anymore. Even during the Victor/Highlander/Shadow Hawk days I believe they were still 500m/s apart.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

PGI eventually nerfed PPC velocity in an effort to try and stop people from firing PPC/Gauss together.

but it turned out that wasnt enough. because you could just fire the gauss with a delay so it still hit at the same time as the PPC.

No, once they nerfed PPC velocity, no one even bothered with PPCs. That was the birth of the gauss vomit meta.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

PPC/Gauss were always similar enough to complement eachother. And players always gravitated towards boating as many similar type weapons as they could; because it allowed them to do the most damage while still circumventing ghost heat. Nothing will ever change that.

Agree to disagree. Give the Gauss 5-7.5 heat and then see how many take it over something like AC5s. Gauss pairs decently with PPCs because both are PPFLD, but the velocity desync and charge up makes them a little more troublesome to use together. Lasers and Gauss however make the most since. You have to hold a laser on a mech for a duration generally longer than the charge up and Gauss has one of the fastest velocities in game making it great to combine with a hitscan weapon.

Khobai, on 30 July 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Mixing weapons with similar characteristics (like medium and large lasers) should not be able to circumvent ghost heat.

Why? What purpose does this serve? Do we really want the game to go back to just boats of a single weapon across the board of the meta? I get that you are okay with boating, but are you okay with that being the only thing that is actually useful?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 July 2018 - 09:37 PM.