152 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 06 August 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

Except my WLR over 2.5 says that is simply not a 50-50 chance at all.

I can tell you how most games will end simply from what players are on what sides in YoloQ, GroupQ or Faction.

12mans don't scare me. I mean we've been beating 12 mans with 6mans for the past 2 days, MS 12-mans included, no arse kicking in sight.

It is all about player skill. Always has, always will be.

Are you honestly comparing yourself to an average SQ pug? Or are you just here to pat your own back?

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[Mystere]

Big Tin Man, on 05 August 2018 - 08:47 PM, said:

Well, this is more triage than progress.

Triage is fine as long as the desperately needed surgery is actually done.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2018 - 06:53 AM.

[Khobai]

Jon Gotham, on 06 August 2018 - 05:07 AM, said:

Me and my mate yesterday EU daytime had to actually give up on the group q, we went 20+ mins without a game. As he didn't have a full drop deck it was enforced solo Q.

But that is the same endless discussion with the only correct answer: the seals make themselves seals by insisting on super solo play. Team game is meant to be played socially, in teams not solo.
There is no dodging this.

That makes no sense. If its not meant to be played solo why allow solo players to even queue up?

If what youre saying was even remotely true, it would make more sense to force solo players to group up in order to play.

Oh right because 90% of players have an aversion against grouping up... and only 10% of players actually play in groups and the vast majority of those groups are 2 player groups.

So yeah designing FP around 5% of players sealclubbing the other 95% is pretty dumb.

FP is obviously not successful so why are you continuing to defend a broken system? The sealclubbing remains one of the biggest problems of FP whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

justcallme A S H, on 06 August 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

It is all about player skill. Always has, always will be.

stacking one team with really good players, knowing full well that the matchmaker is incapable of putting an equal number of equally skilled players on the other team is not really skill. of course youre going to win more than 50%.

skill is playing against people who actually have a chance of beating you and winning. not beating up on pugs that had no chance to begin with.

Edited by Khobai, 06 August 2018 - 07:19 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 06 August 2018 - 12:51 AM, said:

They really should try the split queues. Its not like they can make FP worse. And if they dont do anything about sealclubbing, its certainly not going to make FP better. There is nothing to lose by trying. Because doing nothing is going to result in FP dying anyway.

A mere splitting of the queue -- and nothing else -- reeks too much of MVP. Also, it's like saying an invading army composed of only levied soldiers should only be made to fight the local militia instead of the elite Royal Guard tasked with defending the royal family.

CW was supposed to be a quasi-simulation of warfare in the BT universe (well, assuming they actually did it as originally sold to the Founders). As such, I view a unit dropping a 12-person invasion force against defending PUGs as elite troops facing the local militia. It worked for me.

When I first mentioned it, people complained the above as nothing but "lore fluff". However, imagine if that so-called "lore fluff" people love to constantly hate on included a (possibly elite) relief force dropping behind enemy lines.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2018 - 07:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 06 August 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

A mere splitting of the queue -- and nothing else -- reeks too much of MVP. Also, it's like saying an invading army composed of only levied soldiers should only be made to fight the local militia instead of the elite Royal Guard tasked with defending the royal family.

if this was real life that analogy might make sense. but this is a game and teams in games need to be balanced.

nobody wants to be on the team that always gets stomped. thats one of the reasons why people quit the game.

the argument that pugs should join units and get good is obviously a fail argument. because if pugs were actually interested in joining units or getting good they would do that, but they dont... and they never will. Thats why theyre pugs.

your average pug just wants to play solo or with 1-2 friends and have a reasonable chance of not losing. they arnt interested in joining units or honing their skills. trying to force that on pugs is always going to result in failure.

thats why they should at least try out split queues. the only other option would be getting rid of groups. those are the only two ways of eliminating sealclubbing since a functional matchmaker will never happen.

Edited by Khobai, 06 August 2018 - 07:28 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 06 August 2018 - 07:21 AM, said:

if this was real life that analogy might make sense. but this is a game and teams in games need to be balanced.

nobody wants to be on the team that always gets stomped. thats one of the reasons why people quit the game.

the argument that pugs should join units and get good obviously is a fail argument. because if pugs were actually interested in joining units or getting good they would do that, but they dont...

your average pug just wants to play solo or with 1-2 friends and have a reasonable chance of not losing. they arnt interested in joining units or honing their skills. trying to force that on pugs is always going to result in failure.

And that is where the concept of (nearly) "Endless War" comes in. Structure it as a planetary campaign.

[Dragonporn]

El Bandito, on 05 August 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

At least in SQ solo pugs have 50-50 chance. They have less in GQ and FP. Plus, it is far more discouraging for the pugs, compared to SQ, to see (MS) 12-man group at the start up screen--and know what will happen, cause they are gonna get their arse kicked straight up for 20 minutes. Matches that are decided at the start are far more painful, the longer they have to drag on. We had plenty of enemy pugs discoing, and suiciding cause they hated the idea of playing against us, especially during this event. MC prize allure might be good in the short run, but in the long run PGI is exposing those clueless pugs to the merciless nature of FP, thus potentially alienating them.

You'd be surprised how badly the pugs can get beaten up, we won plenty of matches 48-12 in this event. Sometimes we just capped fast to end the match sooner cause we felt sorry for em.

As I said, coordination is an absolute king in this game. You can be godlike at shooting stuff, but 12 randos will always and heavily lose to even 3-4 mediocre players out of 12 on the other side, who know each other and are well coordinated. Hence why solo queue tries to block any attempts of syncdrops.

My main point is, in QP there's broken, but barely working bar that manages to keep completely clueless players from joining tiered matches. I've seen people doing pretty horrible mistakes, and I am no exception, at time my attention drifts off too, but there's no bar in FP at all, and performance I've seen from my random teammates was absolutely terribad, the things I haven't even seen in T5 ever. Add there a chance to drop with such teammates vs. full unit, and there you get most horrible gameplay experience possible.

[Big Tin Man]

I love how this conversation has turned back to 'make a solo queue for FP!!!'

PGI actually listened and tried that.

It failed.

Horribly.

The game didn't have the population to do it back then, and it hasn't improved. The suggestions of limiting group size are easily circumvented by sync dropping (Do you remember max group sizes in QP? Pepperidge Farms remembers.) This is about making FP better for those that are still here.

Mystere, on 06 August 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

Triage is fine as long as the desperately needed surgery is actually done.

I thought Canadian health care was supposed to be amazing.

[justcallme A S H]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2018 - 05:48 AM, said:

Are you honestly comparing yourself to an average SQ pug? Or are you just here to pat your own back?

I'm pointing out that your statement of 50/50 is just plain wrong. It's not 50/50 at all.

It's totally and utterly dependant on who is on what side in terms of players on either in ANY mode of this game. That is what I'm saying despite your repeated attempts to put words into my mouth. Either that or you simply are incapable of comprehension.

[GBxGhostRyder]

El Bandito, on 05 August 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

Maybe back in 2014 they could have afforded it, but population is too low for that now.

I don't agree with you at all I know the FP queues should be split solo/group just like QP is and MWO will regain some of the old players back that liked to play close casual battles and one the other side of the equation teams in premade groups really never wanted to drop with random pugs so why not just give them there own FP queue?

Geez let me guess why premade teams don't like this idea because then they cant get easy kills and wins and the stronger teams still dominate the weaker teams so they cry foul and cant roflstomp all night long and badmouth the losers.

You forget I have seen this scenario from both sides for 5 years and its the truth and PGI just don't get it on why there game has died off and low player retention.

Plus as I have stated for 5 years this game needs a dedicated social lobby system for everyone to get the info they need first hand from players about everything MWO related and who would this benefit the most? its premade teams by recruitment from the solo FP queue and solo/group qp players wanting to learn comp play and do tournaments.

But no PGI just keeps feeding the sharks in FP until everyone uninstalls and then PGI says (Hey it was not our fault the game died it was the players fault)

Edited by GBxGhostRyder, 06 August 2018 - 01:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Big Tin Man, on 06 August 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

PGI actually listened and tried that.

It failed.

Horribly

You do realize when they tried it before we had 10 different factions? Not 2.

Of course it wasnt ever going work with 10 different factions.

But now we only have 2 factions. Thats a huge difference.

It has a much better chance of working now. And if it doesnt work then what do you really lose by trying? Nothing.

Certainly FP isnt going to get better if PGI does nothing at all.

Big Tin Man, on 06 August 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

The game didn't have the population to do it back then

um no. the population wasnt the problem. having 10 different buckets was the problem.

we have 2 buckets now. not 10. the precise reason split queues didnt work before was fixed.

the question is are there still enough players left to make it work now even with 2 buckets? possibly. it needs to be tried again.

GBxGhostRyder, on 06 August 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

Geez let me guess why premade teams don't like this idea because then they cant get easy kills and wins and the stronger teams still dominate the weaker teams so they cry foul and cant roflstomp all night long and badmouth the losers.

pretty much.

they also dont want the longer queue times that would come with removing pugs from group queue.

Dragonporn, on 06 August 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

As I said, coordination is an absolute king in this game. You can be godlike at shooting stuff, but 12 randos will always and heavily lose to even 3-4 mediocre players out of 12 on the other side, who know each other and are well coordinated. Hence why solo queue tries to block any attempts of syncdrops.

if coordination is absolute king thats all the more reason to separate coordinated players from uncoordinated players.

letting coordinated groups continually beat up on uncoordinated pugs makes absolutely no sense. thats the perfect formula for getting people to quit your game. which is exactly whats happened.

its obvious the way FP is now doesnt work. you really cant defend it. it makes me LOL that youre even trying.

Edited by Khobai, 06 August 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[Big Tin Man]

Khobai, on 06 August 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

You do realize when they tried it before we had 10 different factions? Not 2.

Of course it wasnt ever going work with 10 different factions.

But now we only have 2 factions. Thats a huge difference.

It has a much better chance of working now. And if it doesnt work then what do you really lose by trying? Nothing.

Certainly FP isnt going to get better if PGI does nothing at all.

The danger is we still need those solo players to fill in the 6-11 man groups to make a full 12 man. If you break FP for the big groups that have stuck it out to try to make FP a thing for the solo, you risk completely breaking FP for everyone. PGI has the population numbers, but from the number of dry or nearly dry drops we've had this summer, I don't think experimenting with the queue is a good idea at all.

[GBxGhostRyder]

Big Tin Man, on 06 August 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

The danger is we still need those solo players to fill in the 6-11 man groups to make a full 12 man. If you break FP for the big groups that have stuck it out to try to make FP a thing for the solo, you risk completely breaking FP for everyone. PGI has the population numbers, but from the number of dry or nearly dry drops we've had this summer, I don't think experimenting with the queue is a good idea at all.

No you don't there are enough 2 man-12 man premade teams and groups to have a split queue system in FP yes for a bit the solo fp queue will be larger but a lot will find friends and team mates to join a dedicated team or fill the blank spots for a 12 man plus it will unburden the FP servers trying to match odd groups.

[Mystere]

GBxGhostRyder, on 06 August 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

I don't agree with you at all I know the FP queues should be split solo/group just like QP is and MWO will regain some of the old players back that liked to play close casual battles and one the other side of the equation teams in premade groups really never wanted to drop with random pugs so why not just give them there own FP queue?

Once again, simply separating the queues -- and doing nothing else -- reeks of nothing but the MVP mentality that doomed this game in the first place. There must be a point to the "separation" (and it should not be a hard separation) relevant to CW.

[GBxGhostRyder]

Mystere, on 06 August 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Once again, simply separating the queues -- and doing nothing else -- reeks of nothing but the MVP mentality that doomed this game in the first place. There must be a point to the "separation" (and it should not be a hard separation) relevant to CW.

There is a point to splitting the FP queues and that is to rebuild FP and the community and player base you cannot for 5 years run a game mode dominated by premade teams that just roflstomp anyone that wants to play that game mode for just fun and retain new players to the game or game mode.

PGI has nothing to lose by and everything to gain by a FP queue split just like they did in QP and QP solo and group is doing good for as old as the game modes are and yes I agree FP and MWO need more things to keep it Alive fixing Solaris into a 4 division game mode is a good start there read my Solaris suggestions as well.

[Quxudica]

Big Tin Man, on 05 August 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

So Russ says the event has brought FP pop up 5-6x from the past months. So how about this for a short term fix until they come up with whatever FP 5.0 might be.

One week IS v IS
One week IS v Clan
One week Clan v Clan

Repeat until FP 5.0 is released. It's something for everyone, and 2 of the 3 weeks people won't complain about clan v IS balance.

Not tough to do, brings population back, creates balance in FP with same tech bases fighting each other. And I miss shooting Kurita scum.

Entirely because they are giving out tons of MC. Soon as the events end the population will plummet again. FP boils down to A: hoping you can get in on the dominant side and B: hoping you win the luck of the draw and end up with the pre-made instead of against it. It's just.. generally awful.

[Kanil]

Khobai, on 06 August 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

um no. the population wasnt the problem. having 10 different buckets was the problem.

we have 2 buckets now. not 10. the precise reason split queues didnt work before was fixed.

the question is are there still enough players left to make it work now even with 2 buckets? possibly. it needs to be tried again.

Yeah. They added scouting at the same time, so they went from 10 buckets to 40, and then noted it was hard to find a match. They "tried" it, but they certainly didn't try it in a manner where it would have any chance of success.

[justcallme A S H]

Big Tin Man, on 06 August 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

The danger is we still need those solo players to fill in the 6-11 man groups to make a full 12 man. If you break FP for the big groups that have stuck it out to try to make FP a thing for the solo, you risk completely breaking FP for everyone. PGI has the population numbers, but from the number of dry or nearly dry drops we've had this summer, I don't think experimenting with the queue is a good idea at all.

Yep.

Both depend on each other. Something many cannot get their head around.

[GBxGhostRyder]

justcallme A S H, on 06 August 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Yep.

Both depend on each other. Something many cannot get their head around.

Total BS at the end of closed beta there was a debate about Solo and group CW/FP the majority wanted a split queue system back then with solo players in one queue and premade teams using even numbered groups 2man-4man-6man-8man-12man only no odd groups that had to be filled in with pugs. But PGI only Listened to the whiny Comp premade teams and only made a half arse attempt that failed on there part not the players part.

[justcallme A S H]

So let's forget about what you remember from 5 years ago, ok?

The population levels have changes, markedly in fact. At this point is is not possible.

My comment was in relation to that. Not living in the past.