152 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 08 August 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Interesting. So you would assert that had PGI turned the "Issue of Balance" over to the Community, it would be better today than it is currently preceived? Pretty hard "to prove -- or disprove" as well.

I made no such assertion. Read my post again, more if required.

Almond Brown, on 08 August 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

It seems one would have to "dig up" the Post or statement that PGI ever said MWO had reached that so called ""feature complete" state. Always just assumed it was still trying to get there, as are so many others of these types of Online only games... but I may have missed that "memo".

Alternatively, you can just compare CW as it is today with this:



and add the original claim that Quick Play was just meant to be a placeholder.

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2018 - 08:14 AM.

[SFC174]

Kanil, on 08 August 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

You make it sound like it's a "getting stomped" problem and not a "time commitment" problem.

It's both. Getting stomped will happen. Even if we fixed the QP MM it will still happen (although noticeably less IMO). It is more likely to happen in FW when you mix premades with solo players.

But when you're faced with a stomp in FW, it's usually pretty obvious 5-7 min into the game and then a lot of players are simply playing out the string at that point and gritting their teeth for the next 15 min - you're not coming back from a 20-5 deficit against a superior team. In a QP game that "playing into a foregone conclusion" phase might only last 3-4 minutes max unless some stealth mech is running around avoiding combat in skirmish mode.

More succinctly, getting stomped sucks, but in QP the pain is over pretty quickly and you get to move on and try again. In FW, the very nature of having to play through 4 mechs means you're stuck in a crappy situation not having any fun for a much longer time.

This applies whether you have a matchmaker or not, or if the MM is any good. Hence shorter QP modes will always have that appeal over longer FW games.

[Eisenhorne]

SFC174, on 08 August 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

It's both. Getting stomped will happen. Even if we fixed the QP MM it will still happen (although noticeably less IMO). It is more likely to happen in FW when you mix premades with solo players.

But when you're faced with a stomp in FW, it's usually pretty obvious 5-7 min into the game and then a lot of players are simply playing out the string at that point and gritting their teeth for the next 15 min - you're not coming back from a 20-5 deficit against a superior team. In a QP game that "playing into a foregone conclusion" phase might only last 3-4 minutes max unless some stealth mech is running around avoiding combat in skirmish mode.

More succinctly, getting stomped sucks, but in QP the pain is over pretty quickly and you get to move on and try again. In FW, the very nature of having to play through 4 mechs means you're stuck in a crappy situation not having any fun for a much longer time.

This applies whether you have a matchmaker or not, or if the MM is any good. Hence shorter QP modes will always have that appeal over longer FW games.

If you play enough to recognize players, the entire match is often a foregone conclusion, lol. The challenge then becomes how well can you PERSONALLY do in that situation? Its like your Kobiyoshi Maru.... what do you do when faced with a no-win situation? For me, if I can get at least 1500 damage and 4 kills, I'll consider it a personal victory. It's usually doable, even if the other team is a coordinated 12 man.

All players should aim to do at least 1000 damage, even if faced with a definite loss. Learn to fight better, and maybe it won't be a foregone conclusion.

[SFC174]

Eisenhorne, on 08 August 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

If you play enough to recognize players, the entire match is often a foregone conclusion, lol. The challenge then becomes how well can you PERSONALLY do in that situation? Its like your Kobiyoshi Maru.... what do you do when faced with a no-win situation? For me, if I can get at least 1500 damage and 4 kills, I'll consider it a personal victory. It's usually doable, even if the other team is a coordinated 12 man.

All players should aim to do at least 1000 damage, even if faced with a definite loss. Learn to fight better, and maybe it won't be a foregone conclusion.

If I'm faced with enough no win situations, I stop playing the game and try something else.

Look, I swore off faction warfare a long time ago. And nothing PGI has done has changed my opinion of it. I fully support improving it because improving the game, even things I don't care to play, is good for everyone (I also was up front about predicting that Solaris was going to tank miserably even though 1v1 is not my cup of tea either). But until they find a way to incorporate solo play into meaningful faction warfare modes, PGI is stuck between low population and having to screw one side to please the other (ala offer lots of carrots to lure fresh meat into the grinder).

I'll repeat, they need to find a 3rd way, or they'll keep going nowhere. I don't know what that third way is, but I know that the paths they're pursuing now are not going to create broad based interest/appeal in the game. They need to really do a deep dive into why SoloQ is so popular among the population, and then find ways to leverage that appeal into new game experiences. Do I think that PGI is capable of that level of research and introspection? Well......

[Mystere]

SFC174, on 08 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

But until they find a way to incorporate solo play into meaningful faction warfare modes,

Solo players are the local militia or levied troops.
Casual units are the regular soldiers.
Serious units are the elite.

Build both galactic and planetary campaign systems around those. Easy peasy.

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2018 - 06:06 PM.

[Alkabides]

Mystere, on 05 August 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

So why even bother keeping factions if anyone can change them as often as they change clothes? Just officially make CW an anything-goes join-one-of-two-sides free-for-all minimally viable game mode.

Are people so desperate they'll take any scraps thrown at them?

Triage bro... know what it means? I’ll go back to original argument. You want to be right and lonely AF or do you want to play a game? You can’t have both in current state. Canon can also suck a huge fat tail pipe at this point too, I’d rather play and get population back then worry about the next problem when it becomes one. Me thinks high horse looks ridiculous, being inclusive far outweighs being petty, whining about a perfect World that will never be. #truthbeach

[Mystere]

Alkabides, on 08 August 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

Triage bro... know what it means?

Mystere, on 06 August 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

Triage is fine as long as the desperately needed surgery is actually done.

Any more questions?

And, oh, liking your own post is classy, really classy.

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2018 - 06:26 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Eisenhorne, on 08 August 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

If you play enough to recognize players, the entire match is often a foregone conclusion, lol. The challenge then becomes how well can you PERSONALLY do in that situation? Its like your Kobiyoshi Maru.... what do you do when faced with a no-win situation? For me, if I can get at least 1500 damage and 4 kills, I'll consider it a personal victory. It's usually doable, even if the other team is a coordinated 12 man.

All players should aim to do at least 1000 damage, even if faced with a definite loss. Learn to fight better, and maybe it won't be a foregone conclusion.

Same applies to all modes in the game. Solaris / SOLO Quick Play / Group Queue / Faction. I can tell you from that initial screen of any mode - what the most likely outcome of a match will be, knowing players, units etc... All these people carrying on about SoloQ FP will improve games either don't understand or are purposefully ignorant. I'll spell it out for them

You break FP queue into GroupQ / Solo.

• 14-16/17hrs of every day GroupQ will not work because no groups of matching sizes/filling gaps etc.
  
• Groups will simply break up and then sync-drop Solo.
  
• As players are all same faction or side, they stand a 99% guarantee to work.
  
• Oh "But SSR/ELO will fix that". It won't. If it can't work now in SoloQ properly in low population times it stands zero chance work anywhere else as Solaris has well and truly proven already.

Flow on effect - disallow unit members to drop together by killing a queue, you kill off another segment of the community.A part of the ocmmunity that is resonsible for taking in new players / training / providing a community etc. Solo's aren't concerned about it, never will be.

Solo's need Groups and Groups need Solos in FP. Has since it's inception, will always need it.

So again, with all the flaws that are, extremely obvious, people sitll think a Queue split will "fix the world" when in fact it makes things worse. Bigger picture is something many are incapable of seeing.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 08 August 2018 - 06:30 PM.

[Kroete]

justcallme A S H, on 08 August 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

Solo's need Groups and Groups need Solos in FP. Has since it's inception, will always need it.

Only the groups need fillers,
a solo fw dont need groups, it only needs lots of solos.

About syncdropping:
Says a lot about the motivation and the assertion of wanting even fights.
Do you remember the history of the split of qp/groupplay?
They also only wanted even fights...

But i can understand that groups dont want longer waittimes and some nice sealclubbing here and there is also fun.

Edited by Kroete, 09 August 2018 - 01:38 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 01:34 AM, said:

Only the groups need fillers, a solo fw dont need groups, it only needs lots of solos.

About syncdropping:
Says a lot about the motivation and the assertion of wanting even fights.
Do you remember the history of the split of qp/groupplay?
They also only wanted even fights...

But i can understand that groups dont want longer waittimes and some nice sealclubbing here and there is also fun.

People will sync. It's a fact of MWO. Most streamers of the game run sync drops while they are streaming/playing, guessing you don't know about that as you seem somewhat, ignorant . Add in another level via 'split' queue, logically, what do you think people will do if they queue and can't get a game? What I'm saying will happen... Will happen. Fact. If people want to play and they will do whatever, the "clubbing" that the uneducated think happens all day long and good players enjoy is just an utter fallacy. But will it suddenly stop by splitti queues? Absolutely not.

I try drop solo all the time in quieter zones, simply cause that is when I'm usually on. I can't even get a lobby solo dropping mid week and it's been like that since FP3.0 some 18-24 months ago.

Also groups that fill with solos, give solos a chance to learn and get involved as often lots of groups will get on comms, explain, advise etc. You remove that and suddenly you have not only killed units (which if you don't understand WHY that is bad for the game, you just don't get it) but you have also killed of that opportunity as well which also doubles as a way to grow a unit/socially form groups etc.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 August 2018 - 03:41 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 01:34 AM, said:

Only the groups need fillers,
a solo fw dont need groups, it only needs lots of solos.

About syncdropping:
Says a lot about the motivation and the assertion of wanting even fights.
Do you remember the history of the split of qp/groupplay?
They also only wanted even fights...

But i can understand that groups dont want longer waittimes and some nice sealclubbing here and there is also fun.

One of the major issues on the split of qp/gp had to do with no in-game VOIP, whereas those in group/sync dropping primarily were setup with external VOIP to communicate effectively while the rest had to depend on the clunky chat lines and not even a command wheel. It took PGI a couple of years to add an in-game VOIP in a game heavily based around team play. There were other issues, R&R costs before eventually being removed, lack of constraints when forming up teams on number of groups per side, and still no real effective way to speak with others in game (non-combat), unless as a friend, unit or faction but no other way to make personal rooms, ie bars/booths, etc.

If had more of the above at the beginning of the game, would the "anti-group" hate have been as strong? Consider how PGI plays when they are dropping together, has anyone really seen them trying to organize and communicate during their drops, even a little bit?

[Captain Caveman DE]

can't split the solos from the groups, sadly. just not possible at this point.

also, outside from events, the solos are quite open to advice and sticking with the group and so on - give em a chance.

during the events though.. saw so many guys sabotaging their own team on purpose.. it's no fun; partially we can blame pgi for that (the turretkills, the kills during the assault thing and so on..), but mostly it's cause the yolo-solos who normally poison QP are doing an event; so.. either chill during those times or drop in with 11 pals to get around those.
there is also the hard way to educate your yologuys, but shhh.. shouldn't recommend that.

I really wish we had some kind of gate installed in fw, just to keep the newest of players out, especially during events. when you got several people in your drop with 3-4 trialmechs, it's not gonna be fun for them or for the rest.
while you can't put in a rule that filters out trolls (wish we could, but..), we -could- filter for "no trials allowed here", so people would at least have 4 mechs they are familiar with and already have a few games done, before entering the sharktank

[Eisenhorne]

Captain Caveman DE, on 09 August 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

also, outside from events, the solos are quite open to advice and sticking with the group and so on - give em a chance.

This is my experience generally as well, but unfortunately at least half of your performance in FP relies on what mechs you bring... and solos generally bring the worst possible mechs. People taking LBX40 Warhammers to Alpine Peaks, for example.... what do you hope to accomplish with that? You're just going to die without having fired a shot. If an organized team takes nothing but ERLL or LRM on alpine (which they will), then the engagement distances will never be below like 600 meters, and even that is like close combat on that map.

You can give the best advice in the world, but it can't fix someone who stubbornly brings their favorite mechs instead of the most effective mechs.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Eisenhorne, on 09 August 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

This is my experience generally as well, but unfortunately at least half of your performance in FP relies on what mechs you bring... and solos generally bring the worst possible mechs. People taking LBX40 Warhammers to Alpine Peaks, for example.... what do you hope to accomplish with that? You're just going to die without having fired a shot. If an organized team takes nothing but ERLL or LRM on alpine (which they will), then the engagement distances will never be below like 600 meters, and even that is like close combat on that map.

You can give the best advice in the world, but it can't fix someone who stubbornly brings their favorite mechs instead of the most effective mechs.

I know, but we can't do anything about it, right?
best to work around it, either by telling them to bring sth better next time or, if they're resistant to advice, just ignore them and do your own thing. it's not ideal, but... just can't change that some people are like that.

[Kroete]

justcallme A S H, on 09 August 2018 - 03:41 AM, said:

People will sync. It's a fact of MWO. Most streamers of the game run sync drops while they are streaming/playing, guessing you don't know about that as you seem somewhat, ignorant . Add in another level via 'split' queue, logically, what do you think people will do if they queue and can't get a game? What I'm saying will happen... Will happen. Fact. If people want to play and they will do whatever, the "clubbing" that the uneducated think happens all day long and good players enjoy is just an utter fallacy. But will it suddenly stop by splitti queues? Absolutely not.

Logically would be to play solo in the soloqueue if you like fairplay, sportsmanship and fun and even matches,
but its also logically that you will syncdrop with thirdparty coms to fight against solos if you dont want even matches and needs every little advantage or like to win without much effort.
Do you realy saying that most streamers and most groupplayers are cheaters?

Edited by Kroete, 09 August 2018 - 07:04 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

Logically would be to play solo in the soloqueue if you like fairplay, sportsmanship and fun and even matches,
but its also logically that you will syncdrop with thirdparty coms to fight against solos if you dont want even matches and needs every little advantage or like to win without much effort.
Do you realy saying that most streamers and most groupplayers are cheaters?

No, we just like playing with teammates who know what they're doing, and don't need to be babied about how to play.

The game has a finite amount of maps and game modes. Those each have a small set of "good" strategies that are common. All players in a good premade group will know these ahead of time and have mechs that suit it.

You can't really call strategies when new solo players take random mismatched mechs, because any strategy will rely on team cohesion of everyone doing the same thing, or at least doing things that support other things. For example, on Polar Highlands, you'll have 1-2 NARC lights, 5-8 LRM boats, and the rest ER Laser snipers. If you had some brawlers mixed in there, they will be completely useless. There's no "strategy" you can call that will make them useful, unless the enemy team is significantly worse than yours.

Then you have people constantly asking things over comms that shouldn't need clarification... "do we reinforce?", "where's the rally point", etc. These are questions that experienced players will not need to ask, because the answers never change. Do not reinforce unless it's a rout in our favor and you need to get back in time to get more kills (never happens in PUG games). Do not rally too close to the enemy if you're the first to die, and go towards your teammates who are regrouping if you're not the first to die.

It's just stressful having to explain basic concepts to newbs over and over again. Being in a group of experienced players is a lot more fun because you can just focus on playing your role, instead of worrying about if your team is going to do something stupid and leave you to die.

[justcallme A S H]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

Logically would be to play solo in the soloqueue if you like fairplay, sportsmanship and fun and even matches,
but its also logically that you will syncdrop with thirdparty coms to fight against solos if you dont want even matches and needs every little advantage or like to win without much effort.
Do you realy saying that most streamers and most groupplayers are cheaters?

Cheaters... Sigh. Using comms is now cheating. You have no idea what you're talking about dude.

I'm just gonna leave it there as I've made my vase and you're just being deliberately obtuse.

[Kroete]

justcallme A S H, on 09 August 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

Cheaters... Sigh. Using comms is now cheating. You have no idea what you're talking about dude.

I'm just gonna leave it there as I've made my vase and you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Syncdropping in a solo queue is cheating,
sorry that my post was over your capabilitys to read and understand.
Or do you twisting words, like lots of cheater, to relativize your actions?

Eisenhorne, on 09 August 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

No, we just like playing with teammates who know what they're doing, and don't need to be babied about how to play.

No problem, if you dont syncdrop against solos in a soloqueue (as ash claimed for lots of groups and streamers), if you do its just plain and simple cheating.

Edited by Kroete, 09 August 2018 - 01:01 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Kroete, on 09 August 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Syncdropping in a solo queue is cheating,
sorry that my post was over your capabilitys to read and understand.
Or do you twisting words, like lots of cheater, to relativize your actions?


No problem, if you dont syncdrop against solos in a soloqueue (as ash claimed for lots of groups and streamers), if you do its just plain and simple cheating.

Sync dropping in solo queue (as it is now) gives you even odds of being on the other side.... people just want to be on the stream. That's not cheating. Its not giving an unfair advantage to any team, the matchmaker should just sort people into fair teams. If it fails to do so, its not the people sync dropping's fault.

[justcallme A S H]

Eisenhorne, on 09 August 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

Sync dropping in solo queue (as it is now) gives you even odds of being on the other side.... people just want to be on the stream. That's not cheating. Its not giving an unfair advantage to any team, the matchmaker should just sort people into fair teams. If it fails to do so, its not the people sync dropping's fault.

Ah it's just the usual people that don't get it dude. I mean how is a bunch of people searching at or near the same time, in low population times especially, and ending up on in the game game - cheating?

Oh yeah that's right - it isn't . That is why PGI has no issue with it. So if they don't, guess what?

I mean think of the other side for a second... What are people expected to do? Wait 5mins for their mate to find a game and then hit the search button? I mean I LOL'd at that because it is hilarious, hilariously stupid.

Esepcially as you can simply use... In... Game... VOIP.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 August 2018 - 01:14 PM.