47 replies to this topic

[BROARL]

may i begin by quietly thanking those who encourage new players.

this post is aimed at those players who shamelessly farm PUGs and noobs in invasion.
there is no future in not giving noobs a chance in invasion.
if new players are actively discouraged ie: trolled for being [Redacted], trolled for non meta builds, trolled for PUG dropping, and are constantly gang banged and insta cored when thier mech is still falling from the dropship etc it is possible it MAY not be in the interest of the community as a whole.
there are a great many players who play only quickplay for this exact reason and there are countless more who no longer log in at all...
everyone cries about the bugs and nerfs and blames PGI for the lowering population but PGI are not the sole cause for the player base fading.
stomping noobs shamelessly until the whole server is ghosting and then complaining about the low population is not intelligent. the direct result of less players in invasion is that less attention will be paid to invasion by PGI and invasion will eventually die off completely...


again: thankyou to all the players who encourage the game to grow, you know who you are.

Edited by draiocht, 15 August 2018 - 09:42 AM.
inappropriate language

[Eisenhorne]

How about the newer players join a unit to drop with until they know what they're doing, so they don't ruin the mode by treating it as solo quick play. Stomps aren't fun for either side. Just played 2 games vs MS and MS-T, actually had to try. Was a lot of fun, much moreso than stomping on puggles.

[slide]

Eisenhorne, on 14 August 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

How about the newer players join a unit to drop with until they know what they're doing, so they don't ruin the mode by treating it as solo quick play. Stomps aren't fun for either side. Just played 2 games vs MS and MS-T, actually had to try. Was a lot of fun, much moreso than stomping on puggles.

First up not all units are created equal. I dropped with a few over the weekend that I would rather not drop with again, ever.

Case in point: One particular unit that I have never heard of before had 4 members on my team, the rest being pugs. The other side was about the same kind of mix (4man with pugs, seemed better organised might have been 8 or so on comms).

From the minute we launched this one unit guy is ranting about how pugs are useless, we should stomp them mercilessly so they don't come back and how they ruin his games. Pretty sure he was referring to his own team at this point. Now one might excuse a bit of mouth running if you can actually deliver the goods. But in this case they couldn't. Their calls wouldn't have worked even if the pugs had listened and their own performance was far from par.

We lost 28-48 (Base Assault) with none of these unit Jokers breaking 1000 damage and mouthy coming out of the game with about 800 damage and 2 kills. For reference I was pugging, got pasted on the first wave and still came out of the match with 3 kills and 1500+ damage. In fact I top scored (just) which means it was a particularly bad team if I was the best player on it.

The point, like the OP is trying to make, is that the community is just as responsible for how people perceive the game as much as PGI. Just like it was way back when we had no group queue and the pugs complained about groups stomping them then.

Note this does not mean we have to coddle them, but it does mean you don't have to go out of your way to be nasty like the joker in my drop was.

(Note I was dropping on my Alt clan Account not this one)

[Fuerchtenichts]

BROARL, on 14 August 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

stomping noobs shamelessly until the whole server is ghosting and then complaining about the low population is not intelligent. the direct result of less players in invasion is that less attention will be paid to invasion by PGI and invasion will eventually die off completely...

May I ask you what your idea of an approprioate way to loose a pvp game is? Just from my personal experiences I can tell you that there are very different oppinions on this in a losing team.

1. "end this fast, I don't want to waste time and get the next match"
2. "let me try how much damage and kills I can achive in this situation"
3. "I will punish you for beating me by trying to avoid any contact and extend the game time as much as possible"
4. ...

I just think there is no appropriate way to win. Someone will allways feel offended. What I don't understand are the guys verbaly insulting an inferior opponent after the match.

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 14 August 2018 - 10:27 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Yea, insulting the other team after the match is pretty bad form, but damn it's impossible to not say things like, "lol bring more lurms next time, they're sure to help you win!" when half the enemy team brings LRM mechs to a siege attack, or on a wildly inappropriate map. The quick play mentality of bringing whatever you want to any map regardless of situation is a habit they need to break. Hopefully some will see comments like that and stop bringing LRMs to maps that don't support them. They're probably the number 1 biggest loss predictor in the team, honestly... if you're attacking, and you see 5-6 of your teammates in LRM boats, you're going to lose unless your enemy is just flat out dumb.

Players just need to come to this mode prepared, because honestly, if you're going to bring [Redacted], you deserve what's coming, and the mode would be better off without you.

Edited by draiocht, 15 August 2018 - 09:43 AM.
inappropriate language

[Sjorpha]

"Giving pugs a chance" is actually easier said than done.

Playing bad on purpose is also disrespectful to the enemy for starters, so it's not really a good option. And you don't choose who to play against so downgrading your mechs and strategy is also not an option since you may be facing a strong team.

It's also counter intuitive and bad for your personal stats, a lot of strong players play partly to break their own records and place high on the leaderboards, and you can't really ask them to actively handicap their own progress.

At best when you're facing a very weak team you can try to kill them in a slightly nicer or slower way, but that also prolongs a match of low quality for both sides, when it might be better for everyone to just get it over with and queue up again for a hopefully better match up.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 August 2018 - 10:39 PM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

slide, on 14 August 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

We lost 28-48 (Base Assault) with none of these unit Jokers breaking 1000 damage and mouthy coming out of the game with about 800 damage and 2 kills. For reference I was pugging, got pasted on the first wave and still came out of the match with 3 kills and 1500+ damage. In fact I top scored (just) which means it was a particularly bad team if I was the best player on it.

Of course kills & damage are one way to be successfull in FP, as long as you are not facing a superior opponent in aiming and damage output. In this case FP offers the possibility to switch to objective mode.

1. You may be able to confuse your opponent so that he has to give up his strategy and you might kill him in a situation where you outnumber him

2. You fullfill your objectives by sacrificing your mechs

Thats of course will only work as a team. If someone choses to use its team mades as meat shields to farm damage and kills you will definitely loose. I am not saying you did this in your referred match, but if half the team plays on objectives and half plays on damage/kills you simply end beaten up.

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 14 August 2018 - 11:10 PM.

[slide]

Fuerchtenichts, on 14 August 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

Of course kills & damage are one way to be successfull in FP, as long as you are not facing a superior opponent in aiming and damage output. In this case FP offers the possibility to switch to objective mode.

1. You may be able to confuse your opponent so that he has to give up his strategy and you might kill him in a situation where you outnumber him

2. You fullfill your objectives by sacrificing your mechs

Thats of course will only work as a team. If someone choses to use its team mades as meat shields to farm damage and kills you will definitely loose. I am not saying you did this in your referred match, but if half the team plays on objectives and half plays on damage/kills you simply end beaten up.

And as usual you completely missed the point. Typical of high achieving players.

I don't care that we lost or how we lost or even what to do with it. I have hundreds of drops playing with some of the best players around. I understand how things work even if my skills are ****.

My point is players bad mouthing (especially by ones who are **** to begin with) anyone even willing to give it a try does more damage to the mode and game in general than just about anything else.

I'll let Kcom Linebacker rush me all day, because they are good and don't rub it in your face. There have been and are some other units out there that I wouldn't even give the time of day to, let alone willingly join.

Edited by slide, 15 August 2018 - 12:50 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

what?Jump in a Sharktank with a Warning before "Sharktank...not for Goldfishes" and now Crying "SHARKs the bite me"..and many new Players so bad thats each AI programmed from PGI it can better , many players not better as the Escort Atlas.
best is to locked thats Mode for Players under 500 Matches and T3

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 14 August 2018 - 11:59 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Can always ask them if they want to fight it out or end it fast after the first way knowing how badly it will end for them. Done that many times before and more often then not they want to fight it out.

Can always setup a DD with 2-3 Urbies to give them a chance. Done that before many times and that usually ends with "Urbies OP"

IMO, best thing to do is ask them how they want it to end after the first wave. Both sides will know how it will end by then - if not before. Proceed on how they answer. They want to fight, crush them without mercy. They want to end it fast, do Objective and move on to, hopefully, a better enemy.

[B0oN]

What about those that give advice while "shamelessly farming" the "poor" beginners ?
Hmmm ?

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

I've been on both sides, sure it sucks but I hate dragging out matches so if my side is on the winning side I just want it to be over with (not talking about gen rushing though).
Even if I'm losing I hate it if my opposition is dragging it out too.

[Tier5ForLife]

BROARL, on 14 August 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

may i begin by quietly thanking those who encourage new players.

this post is aimed at those players who shamelessly farm PUGs and noobs in invasion.
there is no future in not giving noobs a chance in invasion.
if new players are actively discouraged ie: trolled for being [Redacted], trolled for non meta builds, trolled for PUG dropping, and are constantly gang banged and insta cored when thier mech is still falling from the dropship etc it is possible it MAY not be in the interest of the community as a whole.
there are a great many players who play only quickplay for this exact reason and there are countless more who no longer log in at all...
everyone cries about the bugs and nerfs and blames PGI for the lowering population but PGI are not the sole cause for the player base fading.
stomping noobs shamelessly until the whole server is ghosting and then complaining about the low population is not intelligent. the direct result of less players in invasion is that less attention will be paid to invasion by PGI and invasion will eventually die off completely...


again: thankyou to all the players who encourage the game to grow, you know who you are.

SO TRUE! Almost no one helps anyone in FW. I've been on a Teamspeak while they discuss the best way to use the non-Unit players as meat shields.

PUGs are just stats for better players on teams. And yet they walk to their deaths. I call it the "Temple Grandin effect"

She studied the behavior of cattle, how they react to ranchers, movements, objects, and light. Temple Grandin then designed adapted curved corrals, intended to reduce stress, panic, and injury in animals being led to slaughter.

Edited by draiocht, 15 August 2018 - 09:44 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Naglinator]

This is an online game...'nuff said. You aren't going to change internet culture.

[Eisenhorne]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 15 August 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

SO TRUE! Almost no one helps anyone in FW. I've been on a Teamspeak while they discuss the best way to use the non-Unit players as meat shields.

Unfortunately most pug players are only good for walking point and taking the first bullet.

[Tier5ForLife]

Eisenhorne, on 15 August 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Unfortunately most pug players are only good for walking point and taking the first bullet.

REALLY???? That is so funking wrong to think that way. Can you image an Army squad doing that? "OK, instead of helping the 3 new guys, let's just use them as meat shields".

I remember one PUG game where one player (I wish I had caught his name) really took control and directed the PUGs to a win in a siege attack. It semi helped that I seconded his taking over and helped keep people in line. GIVEN DIRECTION, PUGs can play and win.

This is one problem I have with teams. The 8 of them are simply going to get theirs because they do not care about a win, they just want stats.

FW is a team game, right? Yet you disregard a 1/4 of your team? And people wonder why FW sucks and no one wants to do it unless there is an event.

[Eisenhorne]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 15 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

REALLY???? That is so funking wrong to think that way. Can you image an Army squad doing that? "OK, instead of helping the 3 new guys, let's just use them as meat shields".

I remember one PUG game where one player (I wish I had caught his name) really took control and directed the PUGs to a win in a siege attack. It semi helped that I seconded his taking over and helped keep people in line. GIVEN DIRECTION, PUGs can play and win.

This is one problem I have with teams. The 8 of them are simply going to get theirs because they do not care about a win, they just want stats.

FW is a team game, right? Yet you disregard a 1/4 of your team? And people wonder why FW sucks and no one wants to do it unless there is an event.

Sometimes there are PUG players who are actually decent, and shouldn't be used as meatshields. But lets be real honest here. We've all seen the pug players who bring their super bracket builds for lore reasons, and are woefully under-equipped for the fight. If you're bringing an SRM brawler to Boreal Attack, for example.... well... you're going to be useless. No matter how good you are, you're not as useful to the team as someone with mid to long range lasers or ballistics. Same if you bring LRM's to an attack siege map, you're just not going to be useful.

Ever see the movie Enemy at the Gates? The scene where that one dude says he wants to be useful, so he exposes himself to sniper fire and dies so the other sniper can take him out? It's like that. The bad useless players are made useful by exposing the positions of the enemy so the better players on the team can actually do something about it.

And saying 8 players do not care about wins, they just want stats... when I'm dropping in a 6-8 man team of GOOD players, I have like a 5.00 or higher W/L ratio. As long as you let the otherwise useless puggles serve a function by acting as meat shields for you, then you can carry them to a win. I'm not disregarding 1/4 of my team, I'm just being realistic about their abilities. If they were capable of more than 500 damage or so per game, they wouldn't be used in this manner in the first place. if I'm on a 12 man premade with no puggles, then sometimes I'll take point and go first through the gate instead. The idea is to go through, eat some fire, then fade and let your team take some hits. You can still do effective damage while sharing armor this way. Puggles don't get that "fade" part, and just end up dying. So you gotta at least make their deaths worthwhile.

[Sjorpha]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 15 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

REALLY???? That is so funking wrong to think that way. Can you image an Army squad doing that?

Sure, because that's actually how armies have worked through most of history. Let the rabble do the dying and the elites do the killing. Tried and true strategy.

[UbeCool2]

BROARL, on 14 August 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

may i begin by quietly thanking those who encourage new players.

this post is aimed at those players who shamelessly farm PUGs and noobs in invasion.
there is no future in not giving noobs a chance in invasion.
if new players are actively discouraged ie: trolled for being [Redacted], trolled for non meta builds, trolled for PUG dropping, and are constantly gang banged and insta cored when thier mech is still falling from the dropship etc it is possible it MAY not be in the interest of the community as a whole.
there are a great many players who play only quickplay for this exact reason and there are countless more who no longer log in at all...
everyone cries about the bugs and nerfs and blames PGI for the lowering population but PGI are not the sole cause for the player base fading.
stomping noobs shamelessly until the whole server is ghosting and then complaining about the low population is not intelligent. the direct result of less players in invasion is that less attention will be paid to invasion by PGI and invasion will eventually die off completely...


again: thankyou to all the players who encourage the game to grow, you know who you are.

You are exactly right I have played this game for 5 years on both sides of this issue as a comp team player and a solo player 80 % of team players back CW were willing to train and recruit new players and were generally good to opposing teams on comms then over 4 years it has gotten worse to a point 20-40 % of what's left of team players are rude and try to drive new players away from the game mode they just want to farm solo players or small groups until the game dies.

The only way to reverse this trend is segregate team and solo players completely in FP the solo FP queues could be just for fun and learning mech builds and skills until they decide to get serious and join a team for comp type game play.

OP the whole forums is rampant with trolls now anyone who even speaks out about teams or has a different idea is trolled until they get mad and are banned from the forums in frustration by YOU KNOW WHOS. Which are white knight trolls themselves.

Edited by draiocht, 15 August 2018 - 09:44 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[K O Z A K]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 15 August 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

REALLY???? That is so funking wrong to think that way. Can you image an Army squad doing that? "OK, instead of helping the 3 new guys, let's just use them as meat shields".

I remember one PUG game where one player (I wish I had caught his name) really took control and directed the PUGs to a win in a siege attack. It semi helped that I seconded his taking over and helped keep people in line. GIVEN DIRECTION, PUGs can play and win.

This is one problem I have with teams. The 8 of them are simply going to get theirs because they do not care about a win, they just want stats.

FW is a team game, right? Yet you disregard a 1/4 of your team? And people wonder why FW sucks and no one wants to do it unless there is an event.

I imagine there's a good chance that in your army squad 2 out of 3 new guys won't bring nerf guns to a fight and won't sprint right when you're telling them to go left. You're completely wrong, given direction the vast majority of times pugs WILL NOT FOLLOW IT. You do get the occasional unicorn drop where there's 3-4 strong team pilots and one decides to cat herd and they manage to get just enough pugs to follow to pull it off, but they are in the minority. Hence people tend not to bother with anyone not in their TS channel