215 replies to this topic

[cougurt]

Hiten Bongz, on 23 August 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

~14 damage PER SECOND with no heat does not quantify "great deal of risk."

Oh, you said "typically." Gotcha. So...what you mean to say is that the PIR-1 when boating mass MGs is indeed an exception to the rule? Hmm.

assuming your opponents aren't entirely braindead, yes it does. i encourage you to go play some matches in a piranha and report back with the results.

[FupDup]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

I've done some math and as an example, an unskilled HBR with 4xERML and 2xHLL sits at 64 damage and 71 Heatcap, a full alpha yields about 70-71% heat (51 points), which leaves a pretty high overhead for that much pinpoint damage.

With the PTS cap at 50, the mech would instantly overheat and actually receive damage from the same salvo. By dropping one ERML, the heat would reach 95% (44.7 points) for 57 alpha damage, riding the threshold. With PTS dissipation, the mech would be incredibly heat efficient at around +75% (with current values it's already at 60% efficiency).

Now, I don't know if PGI was targeting mechs like the HBR, but a 65 ton mech with that much juice is dangerous AF, it's almost at 1 damage PER TON!!, but lets do the math for the MCII-DS shall we?. Alright..

Current stats (unskilled):
365 XL
17 DHS = 60.5 Heat
2xGauss, 2xHLL, 2xERML = 80 alpha = 42.1 heat or 69% @ 47% efficiency.

PTS stats (unskilled):
Same engine & DHS
50 heat cap
Same loadout = 87% heat but cools MUCH faster.

See the problem PGI? The same build but at about +60% heat efficiency in PTS. With 40 heat cap as the previous PTS, that same DeathStrike would have to drop or chain fire the ERML's. Sure its only 14 points less of alpha damage, BUT IT IS STILL LESS DAMAGE!! which was the whole point of this PTS series.

ANH with 2xHGR and 4xERML deals 70 damage at a measly 17.9 points of heat, that's only 35%!! insanely low!! quite literally it can fire without breaks for as long as it has ammo!... *breathes*... Sure, GRs and HGR's require some timing and a small degree of skill to be used, so these builds are seemingly not the target?? O.K., lets keep goin...

At 50 cap, the maximum Laser only damage -that I could come up with- without overheat or ghost heat is:
Clan: DWF, 64 (1xHLL, 1xLPL, 5xERML)
IS: BLR/BNC @ 54 (3+3 LL) or TDR-TD/BNC @ 52 (3xLL, 5xERML) and quite a bit less efficient than Clan

This PTS has already taken a step back and it's not even out yet @ 40 heat cap, Clan would need to drop 1 ERML and this actually brings them more in line with IS.

Navid, I'm really interested in this WLF build, I'm guessing it's LF 230 and with the PTS values of dissipation. Any Chance you could add 5-10% more dissipation @ 40 heat cap and compare it to the proposed 2.1?? I'd really appreciate it if you did

PS: Why the Hunchback hate?

TL;DR: Gauss Rifles doing high damage for only 1-2 heat are pretty broken in a low heat cap environment. I'd recommend adding on a few points of heat to alleviate this (still being cooler than energy weapons but no longer as ice cold as Machine Guns).

Light Gauss can get a free pass for now, I guess, because of its anemic upfront damage.

Edited by FupDup, 23 August 2018 - 06:11 PM.

[Navid A1]

Hiten Bongz, on 23 August 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

~14 damage PER SECOND with no heat does not quantify "great deal of risk."

Oh, you said "typically." Gotcha. So...what you mean to say is that the PIR-1 when boating mass MGs is indeed an exception to the rule? Hmm.

I really don't get this PIR-1 OP thing.

The only scenario that it can win hands down is 1v1s against other ill- equipped mechs.... and even that is by hugging their legs.

In a live game... you shoot it once... it dies. simple.
It has a very limited range. You will have to risk getting one-shot to be able to sneak up on that LRM assault mech hanging at the back trying to leech off some damage/kills.

[SilentScreamer]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

The greatest weakness of the PIR-1 is being made of paper. You can hit it with basically anything and its dead.
Its a mini glass cannon, very potent if ignored, falls apart if shot at.

There are a limited number of mechs that can run dual HGR. And those mechs have their own limitations.... one of them is getting flanked by lights... like the PIR-1 :D

Makes sense why the PTS are also pumping up agility of the larger mechs. If PIR is OP all Lights OP, Buff Assaults!

Edited by SilentScreamer, 23 August 2018 - 06:33 PM.

[Hiten Bongz]

cougurt, on 23 August 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

assuming your opponents aren't entirely braindead, yes it does.

My opponents being brain dead or not isn't going to change theoretical DPS numbers, not sure why you'd think they would. Besides, that argument can be made for ANY weapon system on ANY mech in the game, it's pointless.

Anyways, if it's done properly (lol), you don't make balance adjustments based on "opponent brain dead," you make them based on potentials (damage over time, burst, heat efficiency, etc.).

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 06:13 PM, said:

I really don't get this PIR-1 OP thing.

Don't be mistaken, I'm not calling for hard nerfs of the PIR-1 or MGs, but I do think it's an outlier light mech that is over-performing (damage/kills) compared to all other light mechs. It's fine if you disagree, but I'm certainly not alone in this line of thinking, either.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 06:24 PM.

[Navid A1]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Navid, I'm really interested in this WLF build, I'm guessing it's LF 230 and with the PTS values of dissipation. Any Chance you could add 5-10% more dissipation @ 40 heat cap and compare it to the proposed 2.1?? I'd really appreciate it if you did

Well, the 5xMPL WLF-2 is so famous that I thought it didn't need any clarification. Its the premier competitive light mech.
No, its not an LFE (LFE on light?), its an XL280.
People also use XL295 with 12 DHS as well.


Also, regarding more tests, I've done a bunch. 40 base cap is just bad. As simple as that. Light mechs are going to be the victim.
you'll have to insanely increase dissipation to negate the effect of lost heat cap for light mechs... specially in the first 20-30 seconds of an engagement, which is the most important part of a light fight.

[Shadowomega1]

FupDup, on 23 August 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

Those aren't good examples. MW4 allowed huge alphas and MW3 had super dissipation that let you cool down quad Clan ERPPCs faster than they could generate heat (you would shut down for less than a second, then immediately start back up and have all your heat gone by the time the guns are reloaded).

You have to remember ERPPC in MW3 had a refire rate of 8 to 10 seconds, and you could get even higher dissipation by having more DHSs. When I find my MW3 cd I will check the rate of dissipation rate on a stock Warhawk with 10 engine and 10 additional DHSs which should give it a heat dissipation rate of 40 per seconds or 4 per seconds. Which is .2 heat per second per dhs values pulled from TT.

As for MW4 I remember firing 2 cERPPCs and red lining the mech, same goes for 3 cERLLL. I never played with mektech packs or mods only the official expansions, so no idea on their effect on game play.

[Navid A1]

Through further tests,

I think two things needs to be done:
1- Inner Sphere external (only) DHS should provide +1 heatcap (makes sense since they are larger)
2- Inner Sphere engine (only) DHS dissipation should increase to 0.24

This way, IS and Clan laser boats will have identical performance

Edited by Navid A1, 23 August 2018 - 07:05 PM.

[cougurt]

Hiten Bongz, on 23 August 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

My opponents being brain dead or not isn't going to change theoretical DPS numbers, not sure why you'd think they would. Besides, that argument can be made for ANY weapon system on ANY mech in the game, it's pointless.

Anyways, if it's done properly (lol), you don't make balance adjustments based on "opponent brain dead," you make them based on potentials (damage over time, burst, heat efficiency, etc.).

you're really hung up on the DPS without considering it in the context of how things actually play out in-game. yes, the DPS is impressive for a 20 ton mech, but the short range combined with the level of exposure required to do meaningful damage make it a pretty reasonable trade off.

i suggest that you play light mechs for a while and get some perspective.

[Y E O N N E]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

Through further tests,

I think two things needs to be done:
1- Inner Sphere external (only) DHS should provide +1 heatcap (makes sense since they are larger)
2- Inner Sphere engine (only) DHS dissipation should increase to 0.24

This way, IS and Clan laser boats will have identical performance

thankyou.gif

Pretty much bang on to what I've been saying.

[Hiten Bongz]

cougurt, on 23 August 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

you're really hung up on the DPS without considering it in the context of how things actually play out in-game. yes, the DPS is impressive for a 20 ton mech, but the short range combined with the level of exposure required to do meaningful damage make it a pretty reasonable trade off.

I'm not hung up on anything. MGs are hitscan weapons, so if theoretical DPS = 14, then you're either going to be doing 0 DPS (missing) or 14 DPS (hitting). There is no in-between, unless you have them grouped, which is pointless as they emit no heat.

Level of exposure? Are you running solo right into the faces of entire fresh lances or something? Most MG boating PIR-1 with a functioning handful of brain cells waits around (likely doing a bit of scouting, harassing) until the remaining enemy mechs are damaged, limping, and/or cored out, then flanks up behind them while using their teammates as bait and unloads 14 DPS into their backs. Pop. Pop. Pop. Playing to the strength of the crit-tastic MGs and all that jazz.

I mean, arguments can certainly be made either way. No two games or combat situations are the same. The simple fact is, no other light in the game has the same heat free sustained damage potential of the PIR-1 (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's really the only point I'm here to make about it.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 07:51 PM.

[Cypherdrene]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

Well, the 5xMPL WLF-2 is so famous that I thought it didn't need any clarification. Its the premier competitive light mech.
No, its not an LFE (LFE on light?), its an XL280.
People also use XL295 with 12 DHS as well.


Also, regarding more tests, I've done a bunch. 40 base cap is just bad. As simple as that. Light mechs are going to be the victim.
you'll have to insanely increase dissipation to negate the effect of lost heat cap for light mechs... specially in the first 20-30 seconds of an engagement, which is the most important part of a light fight.

I'm not well versed in Lights, so I ran my own build (slower but cooler), sorry

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

Through further tests,

I think two things needs to be done:
1- Inner Sphere external (only) DHS should provide +1 heatcap (makes sense since they are larger)
2- Inner Sphere engine (only) DHS dissipation should increase to 0.24

This way, IS and Clan laser boats will have identical performance

Both ideas could solve the issues at hand but we don't know how much work that'd be for PGI or even if they are willing to try, if it can be done without much effort, then by all means they should. The increased dissipation you mention is much higher than what I requested, now I understand what you meant.

FupDup, on 23 August 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

TL;DR: Gauss Rifles doing high damage for only 1-2 heat are pretty broken in a low heat cap environment. I'd recommend adding on a few points of heat to alleviate this (still being cooler than energy weapons but no longer as ice cold as Machine Guns).

Light Gauss can get a free pass for now, I guess, because of its anemic upfront damage.

Canonically speaking, GR's are not meant to be used as an Alpha strike: "[The Gauss Rifle also has fairly heavy power requirements which, if used at the same time as similarly energy-intensive systems, forces the unit's computer to cycle and allocate power to meet the demands. If for example a pilot tried to fire both a Gauss Rifle and several lasers at once, there would be a delay in the time it would take to get the entire salvo off.]"

Such limitations don't exist in MWO or any MW game as far as I'm aware, and that's just one GR draining so much energy, let alone two. So perhaps PGI could theoretically apply it like they did with more than two GR's

Edited by Cypherdrene, 23 August 2018 - 07:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

Canonically speaking, GR's are not meant to be used as an Alpha strike: "[color=#000000]The Gauss Rifle also has fairly heavy power requirements which, if used at the same time as similarly energy-intensive systems, forces the unit's computer to cycle and allocate power to meet the demands. If for example a [/color]pilot[color=#000000] tried to fire both a Gauss Rifle and several [/color]lasers[color=#000000] at once, there would be a delay in the time it would take to get the entire salvo off."[/color]

[color=#000000]Such limitations don't exist in MWO or any MW game as far as I'm aware, and that's just one GR draining so much energy, let alone two. So perhaps PGI could theoretically apply it like they did with more than two GR's [/color]

The Gauss power draw thing was a plot device used in like, one novel. And it was never mentioned again.

[Cypherdrene]

FupDup, on 23 August 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

The Gauss power draw thing was a plot device used in like, one novel. And it was never mentioned again.

Perhaps, but what else is out there? it'd make sense anyway, specially for HGR

[Y E O N N E]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Perhaps, but what else is out there? it'd make sense anyway, specially for HGR

Only within BT context. Realistically and intuitively, it makes absolutely no sense given that lasers and PPCs of similar ought to have similar power requirements.

[Navid A1]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 August 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

thankyou.gif

Pretty much bang on to what I've been saying.

I can give you comparison graphs between famous IS vs Clan laser boats (heavies and assaults), if you want

[Cypherdrene]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 August 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

Only within BT context. Realistically and intuitively, it makes absolutely no sense given that lasers and PPCs of similar ought to have similar power requirements.

Idunno man, if BT/MW Gauss Rifles are anything like a real life Rail Gun... and it seems that way, then the power draw is much higher than a laser (the kind that shoots down warheads) by almost x10, PPC's only analogue was an experiment done in 1989 that didn't get more attention, not a good example there.

Edited by Cypherdrene, 23 August 2018 - 08:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

I can give you comparison graphs between famous IS vs Clan laser boats (heavies and assaults), if you want

I think it might be useful for everybody else to see, thanks.

It might behoove us to also offer the inverse solution to PGI, AKA what value cDHS would need to be lowered to to match IS laser vomit output. My guess is that value lands with cDHS basically being unchanged from Live in dissipation (0.15 or 0.16). Like I said in the other thread, Clans need cap more than IS do, so that's where I'd place the deltas. IS get extra dissipation per sink, Clans get extra cap. Dissipation quirks for edge cases like Clan Lights.

[FupDup]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

I dunno man, if BT/MW Gauss Rifles are anything like a real life Rail Gun... and it seems that way, then the power draw is much higher than a laser (the kind that shoots down warheads) by almost x10, PPC's only analogue was an experiment done in 1989 that didn't get more attention, not a good example there.

Giving Gauss higher heat than 1.0 per shot would represent that.

[Y E O N N E]

Cypherdrene, on 23 August 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

I dunno man, if BT/MW Gauss Rifles are anything like a real life Rail Gun... and it seems that way, then the power draw is much higher than a laser (the kind that shoots down warheads) by almost x10, PPC's only analogue was an experiment done in 1989 that didn't get more attention, not a good example there.

Look at the energy content in a modern laser versus a railgun; there's orders of magnitude difference. It's simple physics that you need at least the same energy in to deposit that energy on the target. How long it takes you to do it and the inefficiencies in the system will determine the power requirements.