215 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

wouldn't you consider 0.25 dissipation of engine double heatsinks beneficial to the entire faction?

specially since it has maximized positive effects on low-end mechs without external dubs?

Also better engine heatsinks applies to all weapons rather than just energy.

Crap, I misread your post as being about all the heatsinks (external and internal alike) rather than focusing primarily on the engine sinks. That basically addresses my complaint, though I'm not so sure if a higher cap on external sinks is needed if the dissipation is getting such a big increase.

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

(I'm going to add more builds to these comments as I encounter morth worth saying something about)

MAD IIC - 2x hll and 6x erml, xl375, 30 dhs. Can alpha without overheating, and heat dissipates so fast that you can do it again soon, even on a map like Tourmaline. Very potent.

MAD IIC - 8x erml, with xl355 and 44 shs… Fire them all at once... Basically the same thing with a bit lower alpha, but the ability to cycle alphas faster. Or, break up firing into 4 by 4 and really pour out the damage.

- PIR with 3x hml and 6x mg was very strong. I only played a few matches but we never lost and I never died.

- Generally medium and small pulse anything continues to be strong, since those are the most heat efficient lasers.


I noticed the Skillbringer's HLL based vomit is limited to 4 er meds now, you can't really alpha with 5 or 6 meds, unless you drop to erlls. Heat dissipates very quickly though. I think for most players, this is a net plus on the mech.

Seems like most PPC builds are still trash.

On tonnage starved mechs which have few heatsinks outside of the engine, it seems like dissipation is worse, or perhaps just relatively so. Like the Wolfhound doesn't seem to perform as good still.

Or also, a HBK IIC-A with 2xhll and 3x erml, a perfectly playable built on live servers, was super hot in pts. Even firing the 3x erml while also moving around or god forbid jumping, seemed unsustainable.

Edited by ShooteyMcShooterson, 24 August 2018 - 06:25 PM.

[FupDup]

Just tried out my laser vomit Virago again, the full 2 HLL + 4 ERML alpha brings it to about 70% heat threshold while standing still in River City (on land). With the dissipation rates, I only need to have a small firing delay after my HLL recharge in order to fire essentially endless alphas. So it's just a straight buff from the live server.

This probably says as much about the Virago's obnoxious -10% energy heat quirk as it says about the new heat system, though. I still can't find any explanation for that quirk other than deliberate premium power creep.

Edited by FupDup, 24 August 2018 - 01:55 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Let me compare Live, PTS2.0 and PTS2.1 in simple terms:

Live: continuous tax-free high alphas (bad, negative effect on gameplay)- low TTK (bad)- weak brawlers (bad, not enough dissipation)

PTS 2.0: No alpha (bad, elimination of builds) - Hight TTK (good) - semi viable brawlers (good due to high dissipation, bad due to very limit heat cap) - Heavy hit to light mechs (horrible)

PTS 2.1: One free alpha (good, build preserved, can't continue firing high alphas) - Hight TTK (good) - strong brawlers (good, high dissipation and high cap) - light mechs are not hurt (good)


to me, PTS2.1 is a win right there

I felt the PTS2.0 was more fun, but that might be because battles were slower or alphas weaker? (and today there were much more tryhards online)

Theoretically:
What happens if we would have the opposite scenario, e.g. a cap of 100 with "low" dissipation (more like live) but adding more GH/ED heat on top to reduce boating efficiency?
wouldn't the effect be the same, but allow more gradual punishing/rewarding balancing over the low cap which could be calles "binary" (because it either eliminates builds or buffs them as you said for PTS2.0) ?


btw: How did you create your graphs with the heat over time?

[Sable]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Ok... now that I played a number of matches in the PTS, this is what I think with regards to heat:

• 50 heat cap in this PTS is pretty close to the perfect sweet spot. A great change from the previous iteration

• Brawlers now have access to some level of usable capacity to deal max dps, while having high enough dissipation to back it up during a prolonged fight

• Large heat/damage spike laser builds are still possible but require much more conservation in order to continue firing after the first alpha. This is excellent. pls keep this.

• PPC boats now have enough capacity to unload one or two full salvos before being limited by heat, This is a good change compared to Live and PTS2.0. You can't spam PPCs as much, but limits are also not so high that you can't even fire once.

• Light mechs behave much better compared to PTS 2.0, since they do not have access to large number of heat sinks and a lower heat cap limited their ability to use their max dps in the first 20 seconds of a fire fight, which is how most lights are played.

Navid i don't understand why you think a higher heatcap is better for the game other than you don't want anything to change. The higher heatcap basically makes all the alpha problems worse than on live. You gotta get into the mindset that for both ranged and brawling you shouldn't be alpha striking every single time. Once you accept that idea that damage will be done throughout a time period instead of spiking everything at once a lower heat cap makes more sense. You won't be firing multiple lasers all at the same time, you should be firing them in smaller groups or chainfire. Even a brawler shouldn't be able to alpha all SRMS at the same time at close range, he should still have to stagger fire them to unleash all damage. The point of the lower heatcap is that the gameplay will change. These changes aren't meant to allow your style of gameplay to stay the same. They are meant to change how you use the weapons.

Edited by Sable, 24 August 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

For anyone wondering, drops are pretty quick right now.

[Navid A1]

ShooteyMcShooterson, on 24 August 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

So some builds that seem very strong in the new PTS... Perhaps even stronger than now... (I'm going to add more as I encounter them)

MAD IIC - 2x hll and 6x erml, xl375, 30 dhs. Can alpha without overheating, and heat dissipates so fast that you can do it again soon, even on a map like Tourmaline. Very potent.

MAD IIC - 8x erml, with xl355 and 44 shs… Fire them all at once... Basically the same thing with a bit lower alpha, but the ability to cycle alphas faster. Or, break up firing into 4 by 4 and really pour out the damage.

That MAD-IIC with heavy larges insta shutdowns if you are moving... which is exactly the case in a game.

Also, that build can dump three alphas without worrying about heat in Live client. while in PTS, you are heat-capped on the first alpha and have to wait about 2.5 seconds longer compared to live to be able to fire again.

[IronEleven]

FupDup, on 24 August 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

Just tried out my laser vomit Virago again, the full 2 HLL + 4 ERML alpha brings it to about 70% heat threshold while standing still in River City (on land). With the dissipation rates, I only need to have a small firing delay after my HLL recharge in order to fire essentially endless alphas. So it's just a straight buff from the live server.

This probably says as much about the Virago's obnoxious -10% energy heat quirk as it says about the new heat system, though. I still can't find any explanation for that quirk other than deliberate premium power creep.

You can achieve something similar with the F LT, but without the range boost.

[Navid A1]

Sable, on 24 August 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

Navid i don't understand why you think a higher heatcap is better for the game other than you don't want anything to change. The higher heatcap basically makes all the alpha problems worse than on live. You gotta get into the mindset that for both ranged and brawling you shouldn't be alpha striking every single time. Once you accept that idea that damage will be done throughout a time period instead of spiking everything at once a lower heat cap makes more sense. You won't be firing multiple lasers all at the same time, you should be firing them in smaller groups or chainfire. Even a brawler shouldn't be able to alpha all SRMS at the same time at close range, he should still have to stagger fire them to unleash all damage. The point of the lower heatcap is that the gameplay will change. These changes aren't meant to allow your style of gameplay to stay the same. They are meant to change how you use the weapons.

And this PTS achieves all you mentioned without steam rolling builds that actually need help (as it was the case in the previous PTS)

right now in Live, you can alpha multiple times without even considering heat. right now in PTS, you are riding the heat bar the moment you alpha once.

[Axys Rageborn]

Done me ten games - Feels good overall. Have to be mindful of your heat which is good. Mobility is good too.

Played only mediums and they feel good too.

Honestly thou it didn't really force me to play differently with my 3 x LL builds (IS), I could get 3 to 4 alphas before needing to swap to staggered shots but then again I have tried to make those builds pretty heat efficient.

Only bad thing was use of arty constantly (why I don't know) and having to fight that little fish a bit.

Final thoughts - This is good and I am keen to see what they do with the info. I still would like to see SHS play a role in build diversity (SHS - Increase Heat Cap / DHS - Increase Dissapation) but that's for PGI to work out.

[Arkansas6A]

Sable, on 24 August 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

Navid i don't understand why you think a higher heatcap is better for the game other than you don't want anything to change. The higher heatcap basically makes all the alpha problems worse than on live. You gotta get into the mindset that for both ranged and brawling you shouldn't be alpha striking every single time. Once you accept that idea that damage will be done throughout a time period instead of spiking everything at once a lower heat cap makes more sense. You won't be firing multiple lasers all at the same time, you should be firing them in smaller groups or chainfire. Even a brawler shouldn't be able to alpha all SRMS at the same time at close range, he should still have to stagger fire them to unleash all damage. The point of the lower heatcap is that the gameplay will change. These changes aren't meant to allow your style of gameplay to stay the same. They are meant to change how you use the weapons.

Crippling, and sometimes killing, an enemy light or medium mech in a single button press should not be achieved with such profligacy as we see now. So if this PTS reduces the occurrence of such as we see on live, then it's still a good thing.

Frankly, the idea that in order to win at the game, one has to fire all the guns at all times over and over again with a single mouse click is at the root of what is wrong here. In other games, that's called an IWIN button. An alpha strike, before this game, was an act of desperation; an attempted coup de grace before something bad happened to you. Not something you mashed every 3.8 seconds three or four times in a row before running away to cool off so you can do it again.

Add to this dilemma the fact that long time players, or successful meta build players, are usually going to be resistant to change. It's natural. I've been there with many games. Lucky for us, we seem to have more than a few senior voices around here who understand the overall picture.

[Navid A1]

Arkansas6A, on 24 August 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Crippling, and sometimes killing, an enemy light or medium mech in a single button press should not be achieved with such profligacy as we see now. So if this PTS reduces the occurrence of such as we see on live, then it's still a good thing.

Frankly, the idea that in order to win at the game, one has to fire all the guns at all times over and over again with a single mouse click is at the root of what is wrong here. In other games, that's called an IWIN button. An alpha strike, before this game, was an act of desperation; an attempted coup de grace before something bad happened to you. Not something you mashed every 3.8 seconds three or four times in a row before running away to cool off so you can do it again.

Add to this dilemma the fact that long time players, or successful meta build players, are usually going to be resistant to change. It's natural. I've been there with many games. Lucky for us, we seem to have more than a few senior voices around here who understand the overall picture.

Killing light mechs in one button press is often done by Gauss weapons, which do not generate heat. If you see a light that is getting messed up with one high laser alpha, that light deserves to die... horribly.

The idea of alpha striking being an act of desperation is only in BT novels, and thats where it belongs... in novels, and not a first person real-time tactical game. Do you consider firing 5 to 6 ACs an "alpha strike" as well?
Even in BT, you can kill mechs in 10 seconds (1 turn)... now, do you like having it like classic BT?

And finally, the resistance is not due to "change". The resistance is there to make sure that more builds become viable without completely erasing already viable styles. This will result in a diverse range of builds.


Unfortunately, some people expect their kitchen sink builds (extremely weak builds according to lore) to be able to compete with customized and specialized builds and when it doesn't, they think that balance has a problem.

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2018 - 03:53 PM.

[Navid A1]

Reno Blade, on 24 August 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

btw: How did you create your graphs with the heat over time?

I'm using a well-known engineering mathematics software called MATLAB.

The graphs are a result of a simulator code that I've written for the purpose of testing ideas and changes.

[cougurt]

dwwolf, on 24 August 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

My pet peeve is there isnt enough differentation in the weight classes, mediums especially seem to fall in the fish nor fowl category too many times.
Heavies are mobile enough IMHO. they need some seperation from mediums.

Perhaps a bonus % given to the mobility tree would round out mediums more. By tying it to the skill tree, it would require some investment.

Lights generally are small enough to be bothersome, and arent totally shafted in the speed category.

heavies and assaults mainly need better twist speed since they naturally eat more damage due to being bigger targets. lights and mediums need better accel/decel and turn rate to aid in avoiding damage altogether, which would also help to distinguish them from heavies.

[East Indy]

Khobai, on 24 August 2018 - 12:07 PM, said:

Of course. What did you think was gonna happen if you lowered heat cap?

Clan players are just switching to the lower heat CMPLs. And still running insane numbers of DHS.

Well, hang on there, a minute.

First, this is 2.1 — those ten points make a big difference. I saw shutdowns and 'Mechs cooking themselves last week. Haven't seen any today. Second, I'm certain the player wasn't using pulses.

[Nelos Kniven]

These changes are better than the previous set. However, to remedy these issues it would be better to allow counterplay builds. For example add the armor types for MW4 (reactive reflective) and one other for ballistic protection

[Khobai]

Gr Armpit, on 24 August 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

These changes are better than the previous set. However, to remedy these issues it would be better to allow counterplay builds. For example add the armor types for MW4 (reactive reflective) and one other for ballistic protection

Id be okay with countertech as long as its not stronger than AMS

AMS feels about right for a soft counter to a specific weapon.

So I think 15%-20% damage reduction would be fine for reflective/reactive armor. 50% would be way too broken.

[NocturnalBeast]

Gr Armpit, on 24 August 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

These changes are better than the previous set. However, to remedy these issues it would be better to allow counterplay builds. For example add the armor types for MW4 (reactive reflective) and one other for ballistic protection

Oh gods, I can already imagine the endless buffs, Nerfs and 100 page discussion threads that would happen if all of the optional armor types were added. Just look how many years of buffs and Nerfs that have resulted just from adding Clans into the game.

[Tarl Cabot]

Drop heat cap to 30 then allow HS to add single number but the same number be it a SHS or DHS. 1 pt each then 30 + engine heatsinks moves it upto 40.

Or keep at 40 but add a fraction amount for each heatsink. 0.25 or 0.5, same whether it is a SHS or DHS. This brings the Heat Scale + Heat sink "buffer" closer to Solaris setting instead of Battletech setting, to where buffer has a smaller impact.

Battletech 30 heatscale + 1 or 2 pts for SHS or DHS. A mech with only engine DHS would have a buffer of 20 or a max 50pts or 66%

Solaris 120 heatscale + 1 or 2 pts for SHS/DHS. A mech with only engine DHS would have a buffer still have a buffer of 20, bringing total Heatscale 140 or 16.67%

Essentially, heat sinks would continue to provide a buffer but at a much smaller percentage. The above were examples from both of the board games, the 10sec and 2.5sec /turn games. I think the 0.50/HS capacity only would be a good starting point with the Heat Scale set at either 30 or 40. 10 engine HS*0.5 = 5 so it would make it 35 or 45. 10 engine HS + 10 external HS would give a additional capacity 10. or go to 0.25/HS would give 2.5. Be a smaller impact but would still allow those mechs which can or do equip more heatsinks a small additional benefit to capacity.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 24 August 2018 - 07:12 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Heat cap 45