121 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 August 2018 - 10:11 PM, said:

IS are way better at brawling than Clans, is the problem. Just like Clans are better at trading than IS.

Now do you see the problem?

So they make a few changes to the Clan heat cap/dissipation.

[Y E O N N E]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

So they make a few changes to the Clan heat cap/dissipation.

That is not a panacea, because it isn't heat that makes the Clans worse in a brawl.

[Sable Dove]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 August 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

That is not a panacea, because it isn't heat that makes the Clans worse in a brawl.

What is it that makes clans worse brawlers, in your opinion?

[Y E O N N E]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

What is it that makes clans worse brawlers, in your opinion?

Less armor, less agility, longer durations, and increased spread.

Dual Heavy Gauss also throws a massive wrench into the works.

[Sable Dove]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 August 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

Less armor, less agility, longer durations, and increased spread.

Dual Heavy Gauss also throws a massive wrench into the works.

Dual gauss in general is something that needs to be addressed.

Sounds like the clan mechs would need some buffs. But it would help a bit to increase their dissipation. Increased DPS to counter IS's higher armour, at least. To be honest, I don't have as much experience with Clan mechs because I find them less fun to build.

[Y E O N N E]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

Dual gauss in general is something that needs to be addressed.

Sounds like the clan mechs would need some buffs. But it would help a bit to increase their dissipation. Increased DPS to counter IS's higher armour, at least. To be honest, I don't have as much experience with Clan mechs because I find them less fun to build.

Armor is finite, a single-use item during the course of a match. Higher firepower is not finite. One requires teamwork to use, the other does not. It's not really a fair trade.

And, to wit, if you buff the Clan 'Mechs they also become stronger at trading. What needs to happen is IS need to get better at trading so that the quirks, which make them serviceable at trading and much stronger at brawling, can be reduced. No faction should have an advantage at any range because the game forces you to play at all ranges.

[Sable Dove]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 August 2018 - 12:35 AM, said:

Armor is finite, a single-use item during the course of a match. Higher firepower is not finite. One requires teamwork to use, the other does not. It's not really a fair trade.

And, to wit, if you buff the Clan 'Mechs they also become stronger at trading. What needs to happen is IS need to get better at trading so that the quirks, which make them serviceable at trading and much stronger at brawling, can be reduced. No faction should have an advantage at any range because the game forces you to play at all ranges.

Balancing clan and IS mechs is beyond my scope. If I tried that, everyone would be unhappy.

[Mycroft000]

Sable Dove, on 27 August 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

Balancing clan and IS mechs is beyond my scope. If I tried that, everyone would be unhappy.

That's because Clan vs. IS is supposed to be balanced by IS outnumbering Clan. There is no way to balance 12v12 in a sensible way that doesn't annoy someone.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

Balance is going to be different for competitive play and casual play, and I don't think balancing to competitive-tier players is going to be good for the game, and doing that generally drives casual players away, and games tend to die after that.

Ummmmm, wat?

Overwatch, R6 Siege, CSGO, LoL, DotA, etc, etc sure must be dying then because they all balance by high end.

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

The idea that you balance for the top, and everything else falls in line is false, especially when most competitive players only have fun when they win, so they don't really care if the game is fun to play. Ideally, the game itself should be fun to play, win or lose.

Again, these aren't mutually exclusive and is the flawed assumption you keep making.

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

The fact of the matter is that high alpha strikes are detrimental to the fun; getting a side torso blown off by an enemy 800m away two seconds after stepping out of cover is not fun. Peeking around cover for 10 minutes is not fun. Hyper-alpha builds can be inefficient, and it doesn't matter, because getting crippled by one for daring to expose yourself for more than one second is still not fun.

That's fair, but that's more to do with mech balance (weight classes are balanced very differently unfortunately), widely varying skill levels of players in a match, and team sizes not allowing for uncovered approaches.

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

This is what I mean by not balancing based on competitive players; competitive players often only care if they win.

Flat out wrong, but whatever, you keep thinking that.

[C337Skymaster]

Rydiak, on 26 August 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

So you want a chain-fire meta. There it is. There is nothing more to discuss with you as we have fundamentally different views on what is healthy for this game.

Actually, as the ability to pinpoint one's damage to a single component is a fundamental difference of all Mechwarrior Titles as compared to Table Top Battletech, yes. I've been advocating that PGI remove group-fire entirely and only leave chain fire. Even with Macros and multi-button mice, there are only 6 weapon groups that can be fired simultaneously, and existing ghost heat limits will restrict which weapons can be combined into those groups. (So no 6 HeavyLL Alphas). The requirement to fire fewer weapons more often will allow the same quantity of damage to be fired, but spread over a larger surface area of the 'mech, increasing TKK, and increasing reaction time available to the pilot being shot.

If your internet connection is a little bit slower, high-damage pinpoint alphas can be fired and completed in the time it takes your computer to update the fact that you're being shot, and by the time you begin to torso twist, you've lost either your side, or your life.

A heat cap of 40 (or even 45), would produce a similar result, and fairly well negates ghost heat by placing the 'mechs heat limit right at the ghost heat limit for most weapons. The cooldown should then be fast enough to allow secondary weapons to be fired while the primary weapons are cooling off, making it worthwhile to have brought the secondary weapons along.

The other TT attributes I've been advocating for are heat effects beyond simple shutdown or structure damage. Heat is supposed to affect mobility, accuracy, and risk ammo explosions, as well as risk shutdown. To properly incorporate this, override should be something that must be selected each and every time the 'mech overheats, rather than a setting which is activated continuously. The available time between override warning and forced shutdown decreases the higher the heat above a set heat point.

Now admittedly, if we're really going to get back to Table Top, then these effects should begin to take place above the amount of heat that the heat sinks can dissipate in *10* seconds, and that should be the heat capacity of a 'mech. This would be more effective if all weapon cooldowns were increased to *10* seconds (thus reflecting a TT "turn").

Edit: I did my math wrong. A TT turn is 10 seconds, not 6 2/3. I accidentally attributed the "speed" of a 'mech to its walking speed, not its sprinting speed, thus the math error.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 16 September 2018 - 12:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

The requirement to fire fewer weapons more often will allow the same quantity of damage to be fired, but spread over a larger surface area of the 'mech, increasing TKK, and increasing reaction time available to the pilot being shot.

And then all you leave in the game is DPS facerushing. No longer does brawling matter (because brawling typically hates face time as much as poking) or poking matter. It's all about pushing the enemy with dakka, MRMs, and/or large/medium laser spam.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 01:53 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Seems we are turning in circles often enough and wonder why PGI is doing so every time, kinda ironical.

Anyways, I would prefere lower cap to reduce alpha more, or a high cap with ED to achieve the same.

But I also agree that the result would be some builds (cold dakka and big SRM brawling) could move up to make the alpha builds pretty much useless on a push.

... so let's continue the cycle and do the obvious:
let's nerf some of the brawling and dps weapons a bit if they have a problem.
Preferably with GH.
e.g. SRM6 GH limit down to 3.
and now someone will say that SRMs suck because of bad spread and so on...

The biggest problem by just nerfing the weapons instead of using a "complicated" solution like GH or ED is that it affects all builds, even such where you can only use very few of these weapons, not only the boats.
-> I want to have diminishing returns on boating and provide more benefits to builds that use lower numbers.
Heck when mechs like the Assassin or Jenner2C are boating more SRMs than some larger medium...

Give a reason to use Re-seen builds over single-weapon boating.
In my view a Warhammer/Marauder/Timberwolf with an iconic loadout should NOT ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY BE WORSE than a boat!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Reno Blade, on 27 August 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

In my view a Warhammer/Marauder/Timberwolf with an iconic loadout should NOT ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY BE WORSE than a boat!

This is where you get into a problem. To make disparate builds like the Timber Prime work (Marauder isn't really that out of meta for builds like the Bounty Hunter II or something like that), you have to do 2 things:

• Give it crazy bonuses like increased dissipation or damage to compensate for it's lack of ability to compete remotely well at those styles of combat
  
• Limit the build variety so that these can't be exploited by specialist-style builds.

The problem with mixed builds is they sacrifice way too much efficacy to be "jack-of-all-trades" and end up becoming crap at all things. There is no "system" that can single-handedly fix this, it will require case-by-case balancing to even try to attempt it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 02:24 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Sniping builds, such as the Jagermech, or Supernova, have always been meant to be a support role, or point defense, respectively. They have never meant to be the primary firepower of a main battle line. I've actually brawled quite successfully with most brawl weapons on chain fire. Streaks are especially effective when chained, AC/20's HAVE to be chained to avoid ghost heat, Mass SRMs can be chain-fired quite effectively, I typically chain my PPC, large laser, and mass-medium laser builds to better manage heat during the excitement of battle. Weapons such as LRMs are frequently fired on chain-fire to maximize the stability effects taken by the enemy 'mech (and also maximize the difficulty that pilot's Graphics Card has in keeping up with the game and allowing evasion inputs).

In a proper battlemech company, there should be two or three each of scouts, fire support 'mechs (either sniping or LRM), mid-ranged mediums, mixed-range heavies, and mixed-range assaults. You shouldn't have 12 of the exact same class of 'mech, and they shouldn't be pigeon-holed into a single area of combat expertise. As powerful as they might be, you never see 12 Atlases in the same place, unless they're part of a 100+ strong battlegroup.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

They have never meant to be the primary firepower of a main battle line. I've actually brawled quite successfully with most brawl weapons on chain fire.

That doesn't mean much, PUG queue is much more forgiving compared to other arenas and I can tell you are taking advantage of that forgiving nature of PUG queue given this statement right here:

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

Mass SRMs can be chain-fired quite effectively

No, they really can't.

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

In a proper battlemech company, there should be two or three each of scouts, fire support 'mechs (either sniping or LRM), mid-ranged mediums, mixed-range heavies, and mixed-range assaults. You shouldn't have 12 of the exact same class of 'mech, and they shouldn't be pigeon-holed into a single area of combat expertise. As powerful as they might be, you never see 12 Atlases in the same place, unless they're part of a 100+ strong battlegroup.

What is this even in reference to......

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 02:33 PM.

[Tlords]

I suppose t the lower heat cap of 40. Yes now the high alpha buildsare still viable they just have to wait longer to fire all the weaponry. Instead of dumping 2hll and 4-6 erml at one time - a mechearrior has to timetheir fire to prevent overheating. Fire 2 hll wait 1 second fire the medium lasers. Mess up the timing and you over heat. More skill is better for the game.

And if you want to alpha -that’s what over ride is for...

Lights actually get better - as they are more likely to survive -less alpha chance to destroy them. Their trade off is they have to be conservative in how they play.

Mediums get better - as their mix of speed and firepower give them more opportunity to close and bring their firepower to bear.

Heavies get better - as they can pack more double heatsinks to sustain their firepower overtime.

Assaults get better as they can sustain fire for longer du to even more double heatsinks.

Clans get better at long range trading -as they can pack more double heatsinks and have the range advantage.

IS gets better as the close game being bettered armoredand having better brawling weapons.

As I see it - it’s a win win for everyone. And yes - people will have to adjust the way they play.

[C337Skymaster]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

This is where you get into a problem. To make disparate builds like the Timber Prime work (Marauder isn't really that out of meta for builds like the Bounty Hunter II or something like that), you have to do 2 things:

• Give it crazy bonuses like increased dissipation or damage to compensate for it's lack of ability to compete remotely well at those styles of combat
  
• Limit the build variety so that these can't be exploited by specialist-style builds.

The problem with mixed builds is they sacrifice way too much efficacy to be "jack-of-all-trades" and end up becoming crap at all things. There is no "system" that can single-handedly fix this, it will require case-by-case balancing to even try to attempt it.

The sad irony of this statement is that the builds you're talking about were the cream of the crop, and the single-handedly most difficult 'mechs to beat in one vs one combat. The Warhammer, Marauder, Timber Wolf, are supposed to be the definition of OP, in their stock configurations, and yet they've been relegated to a joke. If you try to run a stock build you're a "newb".

I make a point of running all stock builds (minus the single heat sinks on most IS 'mechs), even going so far as to track down stock builds that PGI hasn't included, and building them for my own use. I usually can do pretty well with them, too, and usually rank in the top-half of a team, IF I can restrain my urge to lead a charge into the enemy ranks, and if I don't get focused by the entire enemy team when I poke out of cover to take a shot. (Which happens as often as not).

Heat management is a large part of the skill of this game, and not having to worry about your heat, and just fire repeatedly with no recourse unless someone else is running the same flavorless meta-build as you, takes the challenge and the fun out of the game. I WANT everyone to have to decide how many weapons they can fire "right now" to do the maximum damage without overheating, and to be able to keep an eye on the heat bar and know exactly when they can fire the next salvo, all the while facing their opponent and spreading out the damage. That's what makes this game fun and challenging at the same time. Being dead before your weapons cool down enough to fire again takes all the fun out of it.

I mean, you wonder why players boat LRMs and Strikes: they don't wanna get one-shot all the time.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

That doesn't mean much, PUG queue is much more forgiving compared to other arenas and I can tell you are taking advantage of that forgiving nature of PUG queue given this statement right here:

No, they really can't.


What is this even in reference to......

LOOOOOOOORRRREEEEE!!!!!

[Rydiak Randborir]

Stock mechs.... Omg is this conversation actually happening?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

The sad irony of this statement is that the builds you're talking about were the cream of the crop, and the single-handedly most difficult 'mechs to beat in one vs one combat. The Warhammer, Marauder, Timber Wolf, are supposed to be the definition of OP, in their stock configurations, and yet they've been relegated to a joke. If you try to run a stock build you're a "newb".

Maybe in lore, but most of lore doesn't make any sense. All of those are not the OP builds even in TT, especially if factoring in BV. Which is why this is a pointless conversation, because if TT can't make those builds good, what makes you think a game that adds disparate firing behaviors on top of disparate effective ranges would do it any better.

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

Heat management is a large part of the skill of this game, and not having to worry about your heat, and just fire repeatedly with no recourse unless someone else is running the same flavorless meta-build as you, takes the challenge and the fun out of the game.

What are you even talking about..........are you really saying that meta builds have no heat management at all? Just f**king lol.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 03:16 PM.

[Tlords]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

Heat management is a large part of the skill of this game, and not having to worry about your heat, and just fire repeatedly with no recourse unless someone else is running the same flavorless meta-build as you, takes the challenge and the fun out of the game. I WANT everyone to have to decide how many weapons they can fire "right now" to do the maximum damage without overheating, and to be able to keep an eye on the heat bar and know exactly when they can fire the next salvo, all the while facing their opponent and spreading out the damage. That's what makes this game fun and challenging at the same time. Being dead before your weapons cool down enough to fire again takes all the fun out of it.

Amen brother - preach it!

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

What are you even talking about..........are you really saying that meta builds have no heat management at all? Just f**king lol.

What I think he's talking about is give them even more heat management - raise the skill level even further.