35 replies to this topic

[Lt_Paragor]

this is it. In fact, while you're at it, just don't get shot by any weapon. We've discovered how to be invincible!— Sable dove

You didn’t get the point. My po8 t was if learn how to use gauss, you wouldn’t want the nerf

All in all, I like where the PTS is at, I like the increased mobility changes that where made because it made some of the little less viable mech more viable, and other just stight more fun to play

[Cypherdrene]

Lt_Paragor, on 28 August 2018 - 05:00 AM, said:

this is it. In fact, while you're at it, just don't get shot by any weapon. We've discovered how to be invincible!— Sable dove

You didn’t get the point. My po8 t was if learn how to use gauss, you wouldn’t want the nerf

All in all, I like where the PTS is at, I like the increased mobility changes that where made because it made some of the little less viable mech more viable, and other just stight more fun to play

Your point is moot. The whole point of the PTS is to reduce PPFLD, not to make cold weapons hotter and certainly not to nerf Gauss, which IMO, it shouldn't, yet I added it to the voting options since 2.1 allows for Alpha strikes as high as Live, something that (again, IMO) doesn't solve the problem.

[Rydiak Randborir]

I would argue that the point of PTS 2.0/2.1 ISN'T to reduce PPFLD (the damage, that is) but to reduce the total effective burst damage of high alpha vomit builds, which it does perfectly.

PTS 2.1 has been the only PTS that PGI has ever done that has reduced the effectiveness of a build (energy builds in this case) without flat-out invalidating the targeted builds or any other builds. It's basically the best PTS they've ever done.

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 06:47 AM.

[Cypherdrene]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

I would argue that the point of PTS 2.0/2.1 ISN'T to reduce PPFLD (the damage, that is) but to reduce the total effective burst damage of high alpha vomit builds, which it does perfectly.

PTS 2.1 has been the only PTS that PGI has ever done that has reduced the effectiveness of a build (energy builds in this case) without flat-out invalidating the targeted builds or any other builds. It's basically the best PTS they've ever done.

Ack! I might have used PPFLD incorrectly. But yes, thats what I meant

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

My general experience was that the current heat management seems like it's fair; but one of my clan marauders was just handicapped beyond belief. In only run two LPL's and two ER large and even when chain firing them I experienced horrible shut-down and overheating rates.

But since I like to run fast and fire a lot, I chain and group-fire anyway so maybe (if the data presents itself in battle) balance the heat cap on weapon fire rate. So if you are chain-firing you would get to have a little bit more heat than if you were doing a bunch of alpha strikes.

The other thing I noticed was that when I was running my blackknights firing only 2 LPL's it felt like (heat wise) I was group-firing my LPL's (2) with my MPL's (3).

Although, it's kind of difficult to make good notes because everyone on the PTS was trying to act like this was some sort of competition with a cash prize at the end. Ugh. Longer matches mean more data, let someone duke it out instead of going 4 v 1.

[Akillius]

I disagree the PTS did not make any effective change to the burst damage of high alpha builds I even ran my lol heat build yesterday, okay honestly I ended up swapping 1 jj for a dhs and was like there's no change at all.

Will some poll on a forum going to be reflective of the majority opinion, no. Is it better then nothing, probably not as it can be misleading since many who do visit forums don't do polls.
And consider that most players only log into MWO client, play a bit then log off. They can't be bothered with MWO's forums because its usually only the voice of a few that get heard here, the rest of us post once and spend time playing instead of posting the same thing over and over every few minutes until there's just some salty fight going on instead of open discussion.


Also this topic will bring the discussion back round to heat scale system eventually.
This has been happening on these forums since earliest days and if PGI is serious about dealing with the non-stop alpha "gameplay" then they should put a serious effort into trying the heat scale system in PTS. Yes its a very big and radical change to game play mechanics that I'd guess there is only a small percentage of players who are not mentally flexible enough to learn and adapt to.

But Wait!!!
Whats changed since earliest days for PGI to suddenly make it possible for PGI to add a heat scale system???
- No MASC and its jittery aiming cursor in early days. (jittery aiming needed for heat scale system)
- No PTS in early days.
NOTE: IMO ammo explosions for low heat are dumb, so for MWO add at around 90% heat or higher.

If PGI was serious then they'd drop in a heat scale system loosely based on TT onto PTS so they could tweak for a month or so. And yes leave ghost heat and everything thats currently all in place just add HSS to a PTS, real popular I know.

[MechaBattler]

I voted for 40 personally. 50 is too lenient in my opinion. Maybe 45 would be a good compromise.

[Stealth Fox]

Alphaing should HURT your mech. Bring the heat scale down, increase cooling, Make it where if you're not fricken flat line with your heat, you can't do high damage alphas with out going over and shutting down. Some of these ******** builds that are all about super high alpha peak and hides can explode when they do so as far as I care.

IS Gauss needs a nerf. Heavy Gauss is bull crap and is THE best brawling weapon to go to with a promised 25 damage in one section. There's no warning when it fires, It's not always easy to tell on some mechs where they are, and the armor you have to chew through for an assault to kill it is BS while you as a heavy or lower get your ST ripped off by point and click adventure BS. Make the damn Gauss GLOW when its being charged, and then make it VERY vulnerable to being destroyed even through armor when it is active. If you're gonna use a low heat insta 50 damge combo and try and face tank the damage of smaller mechs while you bully them with this bull crap, you deserve to have your weapons have a much better chance of being taken out for doing so.

[Akillius]

Stealth Fox, on 28 August 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Alphaing should HURT your mech. Bring the heat scale down, increase cooling, Make it where if you're not fricken flat line with your heat, you can't do high damage alphas with out going over and shutting down. Some of these ******** builds that are all about super high alpha peak and hides can explode when they do so as far as I care.

IS Gauss needs a nerf. Heavy Gauss is bull crap and is THE best brawling weapon to go to with a promised 25 damage in one section. There's no warning when it fires, It's not always easy to tell on some mechs where they are, and the armor you have to chew through for an assault to kill it is BS while you as a heavy or lower get your ST ripped off by point and click adventure BS. Make the damn Gauss GLOW when its being charged, and then make it VERY vulnerable to being destroyed even through armor when it is active. If you're gonna use a low heat insta 50 damge combo and try and face tank the damage of smaller mechs while you bully them with this bull crap, you deserve to have your weapons have a much better chance of being taken out for doing so.

Gauss is fine, and its a rare day when I do use them because they're nerfed to death already but still hate getting hit by it.
But plenty other weapons now do as much or more damage...
I think the difference is just the lack of visual on where the gauss was firing from.

So I'll 2nd that concept of glowing gauss when charged
+Also after firing the glow slowly fades for about the next 2 seconds.

[Khobai]

Max Rickson, on 28 August 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

Gauss is fine

Gauss is fine on live. Because on live there are multiple weapon combinations that do high damage alphas.

However Gauss becomes utterly broken if you lower the heat cap. Because in a low heat cap environment it becomes the only way left to do high damage alphas.

So Gauss absolutely needs to be nerfed if heat cap is lowered. The easiest way to nerf it is just increase its heat from 1 to 7-8. By making gauss generate heat and you eliminate the problem. You can also get rid of chargeup if gauss generates significant heat.

Personally im against the whole 50 heat cap thing, so I wont vote for it. But I will say that implementing a 50 heat cap and not nerfing gauss would be completely irresponsible. Just dont do it. And dont listen to anyone who thinks gauss is fine with a 50 heat cap, because its not.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2018 - 01:40 AM.

[Cypherdrene]

Been a while since I checked this post and I have to say I'm impressed with the results, though I wish we had about 1000 votes and not 50-60.

Now... I don't think either PTS 2.0/2.1 should make it to live just yet. Neither version has been tested without ghost heat or the infamous Gauss nerf (added heat being the most popular), so we remain to see whats next.

Hopefully, more testing will be done.

[Akillius]

I'd only agree to yet even more gauss nerfs if most mechs could carry and simultaneously fire more then 2.
Like a piranha carrying and simultaneously firing 14 extra-light gauss rifles from +2000 away.

As pointed out by Stealth Fox the problem is simply not knowing where your getting shot from.

There's plenty PGI can do to alleviate this issue for example:
* Glowing Gauss Rifles/barrels.
* Upon firing a Gauss Rifle there should be a Blinding flash and a long thin trail of steam (see video below)
* Put a short very thin streak of bright light following behind the fired Gauss projectile.
* Have enemy fired gauss appear on everyone's radar (with a "ping" sound) as a bright blip that fades away in 3 seconds. The reason is the high ultra electro magneto someorother thingymajiggy blah blah that radar picks up the firing of.
* Play an extra loud recording of a WW2 submarine's "DIVE! DIVE!" and warning siren when hit for those of you people whom don't know when to panic and take cover (hide) when hit by a gauss projectile....



Yeah that video is of a real rail gun and when talking about 100 kilogauss of power and using 1 or more electromagnets to sling solid steel at mach +7 over several kilometers... then hey its all the same diff!
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

Edited by Max Rickson, 01 September 2018 - 03:40 PM.

[SPNKRGrenth]

45 heat cap with better IS double heat sink cooling and a gauss heat nerf is the best way to go I think. Would take farther tweaking regardless, but starting with 45 is definitely the starting sweet spot.

As for actual gauss heat nerf values, no need to go bananas with it. 1.5 heat for light gauss, 3 heat for standard gauss, and 5 heat for heavy gauss. Maybe 2, 4, and 6.25 respectively if gauss needed to have an even higher impact on the heat bar.

Edited by SPNKRGrenth, 01 September 2018 - 04:36 PM.

[Khobai]

SPNKRGrenth, on 01 September 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

As for actual gauss heat nerf values, no need to go bananas with it. 1.5 heat for light gauss, 3 heat for standard gauss, and 5 heat for heavy gauss. Maybe 2, 4, and 6.25 respectively if gauss needed to have an even higher impact on the heat bar.

Increasing gauss to 3 heat doesnt fix anything.

The whole point of increasing gauss heat is to prevent high alphas. So you need to increase the heat enough to actually achieve that goal.

If you compare gauss to an AC20 (6 heat), then 7-8 heat is appropriate for Gauss given its significantly longer range and velocity.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Venatos]

voted for 35, this would get rid of 90% of ghostheat groups.
with increased internal heatdiss. vs external (which i assume is ment with asymetric?) the clan vs is unbalance gets mostly corrected.

i played several laservomit builds with the 40cap pts and it let me alpha pretty much anything i wanted with less downtime to cool off, which is a good thing in my book.

i dont know about you people, but i like riding the heatcap, i find it skillfull and exilerating.

i dont understand people that find vomiting twice and then standing behind a rock for what feels like an ethernity to cool down interresting gameplay, this is just boring af to me....

edit: i like the idea of condense-trails behind gauss-projectiles.... a lot!
in theory you have a lot of metrics to balance a weapon that overperforms, if you are married to the idea that gauss needs to be low heat... idk why you would be, makes no sense to me. other possibilities: more weight, more space, less range, less velocity, less damage, longer refirerate, etc. etc. etc.
i personaly think gauss isnt that big a problem in general, give it an extra ton and i would call it balanced enough.

Edited by Venatos, 07 September 2018 - 01:25 AM.

[Mister Maf]

I'm not sure how willing PGI would be to change the gauss niche from being a low/no-heat weapon since that's the point of the thing in Battletech, but I will say that logically if firing a laser generates heat in the internal reactor, so should the power draw of charging a gauss rifle. I would personally put it at about half of an AC20's worth of heat, so using just one makes little difference (maintaining its niche), but using 2+ starts to have an impact on your ability to combine it with lasers. I would leave light gauss at virtually no heat, though; the thing just doesn't have enough DPS for its weight and could use the indirect buff.

I also like the idea of the large plasma plume as a "muzzle flash" as shown in the video.

Edited by Mister Maf, 10 September 2018 - 09:42 AM.