27 replies to this topic

[denAirwalkerrr]

To understand what I will be talking further I advise to watch following video:



So why this 50 heat cap is such a good compromise in my opinion? (Just while we’re here DO NOT LISTEN TO PEOPLE ASKING TO REDUCE/INCREASE IT 50 is just perfect!)

1) This change finally nerfs what it has to nerf.

Yes, thanks Chris for finally recognizing that problem with high alpha is not 96 damage boogeymans who can do only one of it and then take a long time to cool off. But mechs like optimized DS which on any map was able to deal 2x80 damage gaussvomit alphas over very short period of time, resulting in a very high burst damage.

On the video you can see that said DS now requires short delay even on heat neutral map. On hotter maps it will require even longer delay now. Another two examples are 2xLPL+6xERML EBJ and 2xERLL+5xERML HBK-IIC-A. Both of them again can’t deal two alphas in a row and on EBJ optimal build now is 2xLPL+5xERML. Which is awesome because it is also an optimal build for laservomit TBR and clan laservomit assaults like MAD-IIC and SNV are the mechs who can reliably run 2xLPL+6xERML build.

2) It doesn’t hurt other playstyles and even benefits some.

And ofc I’m talking about dakka and brawl. Dakka feels almost exactly as on live server but again it had it burst damage until full heat slightly reduced which altogether benefits in brawl since dakka and laservomit can’t now melt pushing brawling mechs as fast as on live.

Here are some graphs on damage buildup comparation for some meta builds (big credits to Navid for putting them up):

Spoiler

3) It opens up new possibilities for builds.

Viable 2xERPPC poptart LBK? 3 alpha 6xERML+ECM BKL? Very heat efficient HPPC IS mechs? HELL YES! And it’s only few of new stuff that this change makes playable.

But why it’s ‘almost’ perfect?

There are two major issues currently on it. First one - IS laservomit. It’s already not that popular on live servers and what current PTS does - makes gap between clan and IS pure laservomit even bigger which can be seen on graphs and video. I feel that minor heat buff to IS ERML and minor damage buff to IS LPL should fix this problem. Second problem - overheat damage is broken. Best example I got on brawl TBR when I shot LBX20, got like 102% heat and my side torso almost exploded in next second. This is way too punishing and needs to be dealt with.

And just as grain of salt some few mechs who need either more agility buffs than on PTS or they don’t have them there at all:

Firestarter
Blackjack
Centurion
Griffin
Shadow Hawk
Rifleman
Jagermech
Orion
Thanatos
Nightstar
Cougar
Nova Cat
Orion-IIC
Timber Wolf
Blood Asp
Kodiak

Kintaro
Archer
Mad Dog
Sun Spider

After these issues fixed personally I’m very looking forward for these changes to go live.

Again, good job!

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 26 August 2018 - 06:42 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Agreed 100% on all of your points.

All in all, this is good enough to push to Live, where it can be tested and tweaked by thousands of players instead of a hundred. PTS 2.1 felt sooo good and much more fun compared to Live.

[Syso69]

denAirwalkerrr, on 26 August 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

.....

And just as grain of salt some few mechs who need either more agility buffs than on PTS or they don’t have them there at all:

Firestarter
....

Dear PGI, could you please make Firestarter model a bit smaller too? As now it's size makes it look more like medium or heavy, rather than 35 tonner..

Edited by Syso88, 26 August 2018 - 07:19 AM.

[Navid A1]

WHM can pack 19 DHS.

You can update the comparison with HBR with this:

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2018 - 09:39 AM.

[MisterSomaru]

Do it. Make it live.

[Kurbeks]

Syso88, on 26 August 2018 - 07:08 AM, said:

Dear PGI, could you please make Firestarter model a bit smaller too? As now it's size makes it look more like medium or heavy, rather than 35 tonner..

Why go for heavy, maybe say it's as big as assault mechs?

[Kurbeks]

And would agree with Navid's suggestion of HS values. Just changing ERML/LPL value is not enough, as it's not just laserboats but all mechs were clan mechs can add significantly more HS. So unless PGi wants to add more heat quirks on IS mechs, need to make different values for each faction HS.

Navid A1, on 24 August 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Option 1: (I prefer this one):

• Increase the dissipation rate of innersphere internal engine heat sinks (0.25 for double and 0.16 for single)

Edited by Kurbeks, 26 August 2018 - 08:39 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Kurbeks, on 26 August 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

And would agree with Navid's suggestion of HS values. Just changing ERML/LPL value is not enough, as it's not just laserboats but all mechs were clan mechs can add significantly more HS. So unless PGi wants to add more heat quirks on IS mechs, need to make different values for each faction HS.

IS brawl or dakka underperforming? No. Why buff them too with buff to IS HS when problem is with IS laservomit only?

[Y E O N N E]

denAirwalkerrr, on 26 August 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

IS brawl or dakka underperforming? No. Why buff them too with buff to IS HS when problem is with IS laservomit only?

Did you see how hot your dakka ANH was relative to your dakka MCII?

Every single well-performing IS brawl 'Mech has ridiculous quirk levels. Baseline is still whack.

[Rydiak Randborir]

So then let's fix baseline weapon stats instead of convulting the game with different heatsink values that wouldn't even improve Lights (since they can't boat heatsinks).

[Navid A1]

Rydiak, on 26 August 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

So then let's fix baseline weapon stats instead of convulting the game with different heatsink values that wouldn't even improve Lights (since they can't boat heatsinks).

That was the reason I suggested engine heat sink dissipation boosts for IS... to benefit mechs with low number of externals.

and more heat capacity provided by external heatsinks to help IS laser boats against clans




Low heat IS weapons are also a viable option

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2018 - 10:23 AM.

[Kurbeks]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 August 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

Did you see how hot your dakka ANH was relative to your dakka MCII?

Every single well-performing IS brawl 'Mech has ridiculous quirk levels. Baseline is still whack.

Exatcly and Ani-2A even has Bal heat quirk. Would agree with fixing weapon stats, and need to fix underperforming weapons while we are at it also.

[Sable Dove]

I disagree that 50 is a good spot for the heat cap. Especially when they didn't really buff internal heat sinks, resulting in a general buff to heavier mechs. In fact, from your own charts, not only are many of the most effective builds barely affected in terms of burst damage, but many of them actually have higher sustained DPS than before.

None of them have lower alpha strikes either. The heat cap at 50 does virtually nothing to curb high alphas except on mechs that were impractical to begin with.

[Nammuz]

I'm not a fan of the complete disassociation of heat cap and heat sink, but a drop in that and a lower buffed dissipation would be alright.

[Navid A1]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I disagree that 50 is a good spot for the heat cap. Especially when they didn't really buff internal heat sinks, resulting in a general buff to heavier mechs. In fact, from your own charts, not only are many of the most effective builds barely affected in terms of burst damage, but many of them actually have higher sustained DPS than before.

None of them have lower alpha strikes either. The heat cap at 50 does virtually nothing to curb high alphas except on mechs that were impractical to begin with.

The whole point of this PTS is to limit the damage output of high alpha builds in the first 30 seconds.
A laser vomit mech is not used as a sustained fire build.

Outside of brawlers, NO mech fights 80 second long finger on trigger fights.

40 heat cap not only eliminated a lot of viable builds, but it significantly hurt mechs that are considered weak right now in live.

50 heat cap achieves every goal without steam rolling everything

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2018 - 03:09 PM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

The whole point of this PTS is to limit the damage output of high alpha builds in the first 30 seconds.
A laser vomit mech is not used as a sustained fire build.

Outside of brawlers, NO mech fights 80 second long finger on trigger fights.

40 heat cap not only eliminated a lot of viable builds, but it significantly hurt mechs that are considered weak right now in live.

50 heat cap achieves every goal without steam rolling everything

Preach!!! PTS 2.1 is exactly that. PGI can tweak individual weapons as necessary (like making IS weapons cooler), but PTS 2.1 should be brought to Live for that kind of tweaking.

[Hayek Lahiri]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

That was the reason I suggested engine heat sink dissipation boosts for IS... to benefit mechs with low number of externals.

and more heat capacity provided by external heatsinks to help IS laser boats against clans




Low heat IS weapons are also a viable option

I think IS weapons need a buff in heat values regardless of the heat cap number. IS is really slow at cooling off compared to Clans.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Rydiak, on 26 August 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

Preach!!! PTS 2.1 is exactly that. PGI can tweak individual weapons as necessary (like making IS weapons cooler), but PTS 2.1 should be brought to Live for that kind of tweaking.

Exactly my point.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Sable Dove, on 26 August 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

I disagree that 50 is a good spot for the heat cap. Especially when they didn't really buff internal heat sinks, resulting in a general buff to heavier mechs. In fact, from your own charts, not only are many of the most effective builds barely affected in terms of burst damage, but many of them actually have higher sustained DPS than before.

None of them have lower alpha strikes either. The heat cap at 50 does virtually nothing to curb high alphas except on mechs that were impractical to begin with.

Read my post again plz.

[krevLL]

Personal opinion, I dislike how I can still alpha 2xcHLL 6xcERML with a 50 heat cap and *just* stay under 100% heat. But I'll take it since a 40 heat cap really hurt a lot of other builds, too. 2.0 and 2.1 have absolutely been the correct direction to move in as far as balancing goes, though. Both were fantastic to play.