63 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Hazeclaw, on 28 August 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Currently we have risk vs reward where as you're riding the heat you can significantly damage your mech.

The problem with this game is that quite a number of things, including decisions, are "binary" -- either you do something or do not, something happens or it does not, etc.. Kindla boring if you ask me.

Hazeclaw, on 28 August 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

I think implementing what you're suggesting will simply result in more people sitting behind cover doing nothing waiting for their heat to go from 50% to 0%

Not if heat penalties start lower.

On a more serious note, it really depends on the penalties, their severity, and when they (or the next severe level) are triggered.

No one is suggesting ammo explosions at 5% heat. At least I hope no one is.

Edited by Mystere, 28 August 2018 - 07:49 AM.

[Ssamout]

Mystere, on 28 August 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

The problem with this game is that quite a number of things, including decisions, are "binary" -- either you do something or do not, something happens or it does not, etc.. Kindla boring if you ask me.

Yeah, who wants to do decisions or actually learn some skill to do good. Its much more exciting to throw dice and pray.

Ps. I've sent requests to pgi about including override on as a default from settings for a few years now. First time I sent that idea, answer was: wow, a good idea, we'll discuss this. After that no answers.

Edited by Ssamout, 28 August 2018 - 08:24 AM.

[Mystere]

Ssamout, on 28 August 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yeah, who wants to do decisions or actually learn some skill to do good. Its much more exciting to throw dice and pray.

Ps. I've sent requests to pgi about including override on as a default from settings for a few years now. First time I sent that idea, answer was: wow, a good idea, we'll discuss this. After that no answers.

Who said anything about dice?

[Akillius]

Mystere, on 28 August 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

With heat penalties, you will now have to decide which heat wave to ride on instead of only one. Risk vs. reward.

I agree with Mystere, lots of little "inconsequential" heat penalties at different heat ranges would make MWO more interesting to see who can adapt and learn to ride the multiple heat ranges the best. It would also stop the endless-alpha strikes that is the current way of "riding the heat" and make the game more complex and therefore much more interesting.


As for Coolshots:
The fact that you can only carry up to 2 coolshots makes it a reasonable limitation of use.
They only cost a small pittance of FREE CBills earned from every match in any mode.

But a couple years back, the MC coolshots gaves double the cooling and that is where the controversy began.
Since the MC coolshots no longer gives double the cooling... there is no further logical reason for any controversy.


Also PGI's version of coolshots is their attempt to add Coolant Flush game play and lore into MWO.
One older game had Coolant Flush as a similar consumable, maybe SNES MW or MWO4, dunno I've forgotten which.
For example coolant trucks been in BattleTech since 1986 starting with TRO3025
http://www.sarna.net...i/Coolant_Truck
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod
http://www.sarna.net...(disambiguation)

IMO today the only controversy over "coolshots" should be how they need to be renamed "Coolant Flush".

Edited by Max Rickson, 28 August 2018 - 08:54 AM.

[Ssamout]

Max Rickson, on 28 August 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

But a couple years back, the MC coolshots gaves double the cooling and that is where the controversy began.
Since the MC coolshots no longer gives double the cooling... there is no further logical reason for any controversy.

After you upgraded the normal coolshots they were as effective as the MC version. Everyone used those upgraded versions. I got 2,250 MC from unused consumables when skill tree changed.

Edited by Ssamout, 28 August 2018 - 09:04 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Do they have to do everything for you? If you forget to turn it on or can't switch it on mid battle. That is entirely on you.

If anything it should only last a few seconds and then go on cooldown. Instead of people just leaving it on all the time.

[Davegt27]

I bet $100 cool shots will either be nerf(again) or removed from the game

[Rustyhammer]

Max Rickson, on 28 August 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

...
lots of little "inconsequential" heat penalties at different heat ranges would make MWO more interesting to see who can adapt and learn to ride the multiple heat ranges the best.
...

It will kill any remaining brawling.
It will not change peek and poke gameplay in any significant way.
Lurm boats sitting at the back pressing a single button will be the only winners.

Yeah, a really good idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordNothing, on 28 August 2018 - 01:27 AM, said:

if you are getting hot enough where it matters you are probably doing a bad job of managing your heat.

my preference is to leave override off unless i absolutely need to not shut down (say in a brawl with somone with a good aim). and sometimes there is an advantage to shutting down, like where both you and your enemy are one hit and you absolutely need to get your shot in first in order to stay in the game, in which case automatic shutdown is just what you need.

You are obviously not 1337 enough for these conversations. (nor am I as the number under my badge shows). Everyone knows all 1337s are Override all the time. ALL of it. I read it on Reddit. OK, it was mostly a bunch of pictures, since Reddit and literacy don't always go hand in hand, but I'm CERTAIN that is what the pretty pictures showed.

But sure, why not one more toggle? Shamwow? Go with armlock and all the other crap. *shrugs* Honestly don't see it impacting my play that much, since MWO still won't implement meaningful Overheat penalties for riding the heat anyhow.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 August 2018 - 05:13 PM.

[Akillius]

"Lurm boats sitting at the back pressing a single button will be the only winners."
So you don't like being lurmed then bring AMS preferably with ecm.

"It will not change peek and poke gameplay in any significant way."
For peek and poke Nothing will ever change there, its just for those who can stand the boredom.

"It will kill any remaining brawling."
No it'll just end the mindless non-stop alpha strikes and be more hit and runs from smaller mechs, more shoot and dodge by larger and will amplify the need for team play and team firing on called targets.

MWO is absolutely no different then any other Team-Based FPS. ie. Counterstrike mod circa 1999
There's always a percentage who play snipers, another group who prefer slowly tanking, and a small group of lightly armed fast hit and run scouts, another who play medics... oh nvm about medics, and then there's the general purpose no-aim shotgun brawlers.
MWO is like carrying a pistol, MG, grenades and knife in counterstrike or battlefield series and being able to use them all together at the same time, every second without any reload, reloading, cooldown, or refresh penalty of any kind...

Okay so to be crystal clear it goes (at least) as far back as the 1970's and a little TT game called Dungeons & Dragons...
Knight (Tank = Assaults + no ammo + close range)
Cleric (heals + Light-tanking = basically Heavies + ammo + close-short range)
Mage (Shotgun/LBX/LRM = Mediums + anything + any range)
Thief (Scouting/Hit-N-Run/Distract = basically light mechs + no ammo + close-long range)
Archer (Sniper/LRM = Any size + ammo + any range but generally furthest)

Yes the random D&D character stat rolls plus the race you choose (human, orc, elf, etc) gave you options, which makes MWO even more like D&D with all the swappable equipment options.
But they all have limitations on damage output no matter what class, race, or abilities.
For example a mage can't use throwing star, dagger, staff, magic and kicking to attack 1 opponent in 1 turn even if the mage is carrying all of that and has an extra foot magically floating about...
MWO's nonstop alpha strikes does allow that and the constant insta-kills get boring no matter which side your on.

And all team based games today including MWO there is still the same basic roles being filled along the lines of:
1 Knight/Fighter, 1 Archer, 1 Cleric/Mage, and 1 Thief/Rogue
Are those lines blurred in MWO? Yes sometimes, but good teams will have players and mechs ready to fill their niche.

[LordNothing]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

You are obviously not 1337 enough for these conversations. (nor am I as the number under my badge shows). Everyone knows all 1337s are Override all the time. ALL of it. I read it on Reddit. OK, it was mostly a bunch of pictures, since Reddit and literacy don't always go hand in hand, but I'm CERTAIN that is what the pretty pictures showed.

But sure, why not one more toggle? Shamwow? Go with armlock and all the other crap. *shrugs* Honestly don't see it impacting my play that much, since MWO still won't implement meaningful Overheat penalties for riding the heat anyhow.

id have no problem with override being a default setting (id make it per build though as some builds would either not need it or not want it).

and 1337 is not ever having to worry about overheat shutdown because you can ride it close to 99% without passing into 100% territory. if you have to have override on to do that then you are not 1337. its like armlock, theres a time to have it on and a time to have it off and skill is knowing which is which.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 August 2018 - 07:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

why? theres no penalty for being at 99% heat.

There is no reward for running around at 0% either.
Which is more skillful? Riding the heat line @ 99% constantly engaging or running around at 0% having no impact on the battle for 30s at a time?

Derp.

There should be no penalty for skilled heat management. This is not battletech. This is MWO and MWO is a FPS.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

There is no reward for running around at 0% either.
Which is more skillful? Riding the heat line @ 99% constantly engaging or running around at 0% having no impact on the battle for 30s at a time?

Derp.

There should be no penalty for skilled heat management. This is not battletech. This is MWO and MWO is a FPS.

And there shouldnt be a reward for running around at 0% heat. Nobody said that.

But at the same time there should absolutely be a penalty for riding your heat high.

Being skillful at heat management should require keeping your heat level balanced in between the two extremes.

There needs to be more consequences to constantly running your mech hot than simply shutting down at 100%. Thats why we need gradual penalties that kick in above certain heat thresholds.

My suggestion would actually require MORE skill. Because you would have to consider whether the cumulative penalties from running hotter are worth it or not. The only reason you wouldnt want heat penalties is to keep the skill ceiling low. Because you obviously just wanna keep firing all your weapons constantly without any downside whatsoever until you hit 100%. Simply keeping your heat under 100% is brainless low skill gameplay.

And no its not battletech. But its a real time translation of battletech. And heat penalties are something that should be translated over in part because they have value in forcing people to manage heat better by not constantly riding their heat scale at extremes without any consequence whatsoever.



Also the way overriding works in MWO makes no sense. In battletech if you get to 100% heat you shut down automatically and cant override it at all.

Overriding in battletech is only used to prevent your mech from shutting down BEFORE it reaches 100% heat. But once you hit max heat you cant stop your mech from shutting down anymore. Because the mech simply cant function anymore at those levels of heat even if you override.

The way it should work in MWO, is you shouldnt be able to override a 100% shutdown. If you get to 100% heat you should shutdown no matter what. Override should only let you prevent the shutdown triggers that occur earlier than 100%. And overriding those earlier shutdown triggers should incur heat penalties.

Edited by Khobai, 28 August 2018 - 09:11 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

And there shouldnt be a reward for running around at 0% heat. Nobody said that.

But at the same time there should absolutely be a penalty for riding your heat high.

No penalty for riding your heat high? LOL... WHAT?

There is - You mis-calculate by 2-3% heat and you've taken structure damage which can trigger ammo/weapon explosions too. In Lights it is instant death (IS) or Torso loss (Clan), Meds you've basically taken off something and in Heavies, most of the time, if you're 3-4% into the red you've done a fair amount of damage and lost a weapon or similar.

The only class of mech that can dip into the 104-105% without really hurting themselves are Assaults. That said you do it a 2nd time then you are usually in quite a bit of trouble.

Your suggestion really isn't any more skillful at all. Skilled players will work within it's confines. Adding more complicated / convoluted mechanics simply hurts lesser skilled players. No idea why you would wanna make the game more complicated for yourself.

Suggestion is actually worse than the C-Gauss reticle shake, horrible mechanic that doesn't stop the top end.

[K O Z A K]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

you have a very warped way of looking at things.

being able to override and not having to automatically shut down at 100% is not a penalty.

in battletech if you hit 100% heat you just shut down. period. there are no overrides if you hit 100% heat.



disallowing override past 100% and forcing people to shut down at 100% does stop the top end.

Or you know...maybe you have a very warped way of looking at things. If you haven't noticed mw games move away a bit from battletech for the sake of gameplay. What you're suggesting will make gameplay more boring and will actually increase the gap between less and more skilled players

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

you have a very warped way of looking at things.

being able to override and not having to automatically shut down at 100% is not a penalty. not having to shut down at 100% is only ever an advantage. You just have to not make the mistake of pushing your heat past 100% too far, but thats not hard to do.

in battletech if you hit 100% heat you just shut down. period. there are no overrides if you hit 100% heat.

disallowing override past 100% and forcing people to shut down at 100% does stop the top end. it stops it at 100%. instead of allowing you to push it past 100%.

There is a penalty. I very clearly pointed it out to you. You should re-read my post and take note of the point about structure damage and weapon loss. If you don't get it, re-read it again. Those are penalties. If 100% means shutdown, good players will still get around that.


Anyway warped view? Here is how...

- Warped
- My
- Views are

Yeah, that's right. Every time I bring fact into your fictional world and unfounded statements proven to be, just that... The usual happens.

End of the day I actually play the game. You have barely played in 24 months. There is abolutely no wonder why you don't understand just how warped the stuff you post is and how out of touch it is if you never play.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 August 2018 - 10:28 PM.

[Khobai]

Hazeclaw, on 28 August 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

Or you know...maybe you have a very warped way of looking at things. If you haven't noticed mw games move away a bit from battletech for the sake of gameplay. What you're suggesting will make gameplay more boring and will actually increase the gap between less and more skilled players

yeah and every mw game has also had a problem with high alphastriking and convergence

because the heat system is way too liberal

why do you think PGI wants to lower the heat cap? they know the heat system is too liberal.

But rather than having a lower heat cap, id rather have the option of running mechs hotter, but with penalties.

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

- Warped
- My
- Views Are

so basically youre incapable of making a coherent argument other than pointing out your stats.

thats all I really got from that.

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

End of the day I actually play the game. You have barely played in 24 months. There is abolutely no wonder why you don't understand just how warped the stuff you post is and how out of touch it is if you never play.

Its true I barely play this account anymore. You do realize I have multiple accounts though right?

And considering PGI wants to lower the heat cap, its pretty clear that they agree with me about the heat system being way too liberal. Its just rather than imposing a strict lower heat cap of 40-50 id rather have the option of a higher heat cap with additional penalties. I feel keeping the heat cap higher but with penalties gives players more options than just having a strictly lower heat cap.

Edited by Khobai, 28 August 2018 - 10:42 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

so basically youre incapable of making a coherent argument other than pointing out your stats.

thats all I really got from that.

Wrong again.

Whta I did was totally disprove your argements, multiple times, with real in-game numbers and math about weapons, ranges, active player counts and so on. I mean no wonder you disappear from discussions once facts come out. Who in their right mind could possibly continue to argue a point that has been proven to be factually incorrect, right?

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 10:28 PM, said:

why do you think PGI wants to lower the heat cap? they know the heat system is too liberal.

Except the PTS just upped the heat-cap because PGI realised it was too low

And now since it was upped, basically every build is now viable again. I mean you'd know that, if you played.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

Except the PTS just upped the heat-cap because PGI realised it was too low

And now since it was upped, basically every build is now viable again. I mean you'd know that, if you played.

um the 50 heat cap is still way lower than the heat cap on live. its still a massive overall nerf to heat cap. I dont really understand what youre trying to say...

I dont want a 50 heat cap though. thats stupid. I want to keep the heat cap roughly where its at on live and instead have heat penalties for going above 50 heat.

Like I said, I would rather have the option of running hotter with additional penalties than having a strict heatcap of 50.

So for example you might get shutdown triggers at 50 heat, 60 heat, 70 heat, etc... that you can choose to override. If you override those shutdown triggers you would suffer cumulative heat penalties. And then at 70-80 heat or whatever you would just automatically shutdown and not be able to override anymore. Thats better than just having a strict 50 heat cap IMO

I think you misunderstood that my suggestion was meant as an alternative to having a 50 heat cap.

Edited by Khobai, 28 August 2018 - 10:55 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Care to show us all then how many of the common builds are above the 50 heat cap? Taking into account the higher/instant dissipation which allows you to run more than 50 heat quite easily especially with DHS stacking.

Are you still following or have I lost you yet?

I mean I know for a fact the amount of builds OVER that are much, much less than under. And that 40 heat nuked a large percentage of builds within MWO.

So while this might be a "nerf" in the real world - you know - the actual game, it's not really a nerf to a vast majority of builds within the game. It stops a few big ones but that's it. Displaying quite a lack of understang, again.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 August 2018 - 10:52 PM.