63 replies to this topic

[denAirwalkerrr]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

Care to show us all then how many of the common builds are above the 50 heat cap? Taking into account the higher/instant dissipation which allows you to run more than 50 heat quite easily especially with DHS stacking.

Are you still following or have I lost you yet?

I mean I know for a fact the amount of builds OVER that are much, much less than under. And that 40 heat nuked a large percentage of builds within MWO.

So while this might be a "nerf" in the real world - you know - the actual game, it's not really a nerf to a vast majority of builds within the game. It stops a few big ones but that's it. Displaying quite a lack of understang, again.

Fun fact: in TT you can exceed your heat by freaking 30 points before you trigger forced shutdown on mech. http://www.sarna.net...t_Effects_Table

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 29 August 2018 - 03:15 AM.

[Dungeon 206]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

Wrong again.

Whta I did was totally disprove your argements, multiple times, with real in-game numbers and math about weapons, ranges, active player counts and so on. I mean no wonder you disappear from discussions once facts come out. Who in their right mind could possibly continue to argue a point that has been proven to be factually incorrect, right?

denAirwalkerrr, on 29 August 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Fun fact: in TT you can exceed your heat by freaking 30 points before you trigger forced shutdown on mech. http://www.sarna.net...t_Effects_Table

mate you're right about the disappearing act.....

Edited by Dungeon 206, 29 August 2018 - 04:22 AM.

[dwwolf]

Khobai, on 28 August 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

Would be nice if there was some penalty for constantly riding your heat high too.

Thats why battletech has heat penalties so you cant just keep your heat high all the time without consequences.

But meh l33+ sniping skillz !!!!!!!!!!!

There will no deviation allowed from point n click damage application.

We should have an implementation similar to the BT heat table. It would lower Pauls TTK problem as well.

Edited by dwwolf, 29 August 2018 - 04:46 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

denAirwalkerrr, on 29 August 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Fun fact: in TT you can exceed your heat by freaking 30 points before you trigger forced shutdown on mech. http://www.sarna.net...t_Effects_Table

Well look at that. Even more facts for the table.

I mean it's one thing to argue about table top values, it's another to argue them with no idea what they actually are.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

Care to show us all then how many of the common builds are above the 50 heat cap? Taking into account the higher/instant dissipation which allows you to run more than 50 heat quite easily especially with DHS stacking.

Um every build with more than 10 DHS is already operating with more than 50 heat cap. Which is literally every build in the game except for a few light mechs.

As for heat dissipation, the heat dissipation values shouldve always been 2.0. Because that's what they are in battletech. They never shouldve been less than that to begin with.

denAirwalkerrr, on 29 August 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Fun fact: in TT you can exceed your heat by freaking 30 points before you trigger forced shutdown on mech

Wrong. Its 30 heat + 1 heat per single heatsink and + 2 heat per double heatsink. Heatsinks add to heat capacity in battletech.

A mech with 10 DHS in battletech can generate 50 heat before shutting down. While a mech with 20 DHS can generate 70 heat before shutting down. A mech with 30 DHS can generate 90 heat before shutting down. The more heatsinks you have the more total heat you can generate before shutting down.

Because in battletech, heat is dissipated BEFORE you check your heat level to determine penalties.

So if you generate 70 heat, then dissipate 40 heat from having 20 DHS, youre still only at 30 heat on the heat table. See how that works? Thats not a 30 heat cap its a 70 heat cap. Because with 20 DHS, the total amount of heat you can generate before shutdown is 70. DERP.

Think of it like your heatsinks creating a "buffer" where you suffer no heat penalties as long as your heat level stays inside that buffer. But if your heat exceeds that buffer, you suffer penalties on the heat table. And you can exceed the buffer by upto 30 heat before shutting down.

justcallme A S H, on 28 August 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

I mean it's one thing to argue about table top values, it's another to argue them with no idea what they actually are.

Obviously I have a far better grasp of how it works than you do, lol.

Battletech absolutely does not have a strict 30 heat cap. That is a misnomer. Because people either forget or are unaware that heatsinks in battletech subtract heat before checking for heat penalties.

Thats the whole reason PGI designed MWO so heatsinks add to both heat dissipation and capacity. Because thats exactly how it works in battletech. The only difference is PGI didnt include heat penalties at the top of the heat scale, which is why they ended up having to nerf DHS.

As far as MWO is concerned, having a higher heat cap than 50 would work absolutely fine as long as theres heat penalties at the very top. IMO thats preferable to being stuck with a strict heatcap of 50. Because you retain the option to fire off huge alphastrikes and just have to suffer additional heat penalties for doing so.

Edited by Khobai, 29 August 2018 - 06:08 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Khobai, on 29 August 2018 - 05:32 AM, said:

Wrong. Its 30 heat + 1 heat per single heatsink and + 2 heat per double heatsink. Heatsinks add to heat capacity in battletech.

A mech with 10 DHS in battletech can generate 50 heat before shutting down. While a mech with 20 DHS can generate 70 heat before shutting down.

Thanks Sherlock. Now imagine you didn’t got that extra 30 heat and you got your delusional suggestion.

[Khobai]

denAirwalkerrr, on 29 August 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Thanks Sherlock. Now imagine you didn’t got that extra 30 heat and you got your delusional suggestion.

confused much?

because by enforcing a strict heatcap of 40-50, PGI is effectively taking away that extra 30 heat

my "delusional suggestion" wants to keep that extra 30 heat in place, just with heat penalties like battletech has.

my suggestion is the exact opposite of what you apparently think it is. lmao.

I want to keep the higher heat cap of 50+ that that we currently have on live and just have additional penalties if you exceed 50 heat. Rather than lowering the entire heatcap to a max of 40-50 which is what PGI wants to do.

Edited by Khobai, 29 August 2018 - 06:23 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

I can do nothing more than shake my head now. It's gone from fact vs fiction to just.... I don't even know. Fact vs what, total ignorance.

Hell it's FPS vs Turns and dice... As we've seen many, many times the two simply cannot marry up well at every turn, least of all heat.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 August 2018 - 06:30 AM.

[Mystere]

And this is where I step in ...

justcallme A S H, on 29 August 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

I can do nothing more than shake my head now. It's gone from fact vs fiction to just.... I don't even know. Fact vs what, total ignorance.

Hell it's FPS vs Turns and dice... As we've seen many, many times the two simply cannot marry up well at every turn, least of all heat.

It would actually help people's arguments if they actually refuted Khobai's explanation of the BT heat system instead of just resorting to ad hominems.

What is wrong with his explanation of the BT rules? Point them out, explicitly.


And speaking of "dice", people should really look into the underlying principles abstracted by the dice rolls -- instead of taking things very literally -- and get "creative".

For example, the "-1 MP" penalty for being at 5 heat can be implemented in an FPS as a 5% speed reduction. The penalty for 10 heat can be implemented as, again as an example, an additional 10% torso twist speed reduction over and above the already 5% speed reduction.

Merely saying "MWO is a real-time FPS and not a dice-based table top game" brings less than nothing to the table.

Edited by Mystere, 29 August 2018 - 11:30 AM.

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 29 August 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

And this is where I step in ...

It would actually help people's arguments if they actually refuted Khobai's explanation of the BT heat system instead of just resorting to ad hominems.

What is wrong with his explanation of the BT rules? Point them out, explicitly.

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with my explanation because thats precisely how heat works in battletech.

As for the argument that MWO is an FPS game and Battletech is a TT game, thats absolutely a valid argument. For that reason I dont think MWO should directly copy anything from TT. Instead MWO should have its own heat penalty system designed from the ground up specifically to work for MWO.

PGI wants to lower the heat cap to 50 anyway. Rather than having a strict heatcap of 50, id rather see the ability to push heat past 50 and incur cumulative heat penalties. Basically its a compromise between the current heat system and having a heat cap of 50.

[Rustyhammer]

Khobai, on 29 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

...
As for the argument that MWO is an FPS game and Battletech is a TT game, thats absolutely a valid argument. For that reason I dont think MWO should directly copy anything from TT. Instead MWO should have its own heat penalty system designed from the ground up specifically to work for MWO.
...

Care to list what kind of possible heat penalties you think will be good for MWO, including your thoughts on how they will change the current game play?
So far I see your heat penalties will only benefit long range snipers and lurm boats by nerfing any kind of aggressive gameplay.

Also, do you genuinely believe these new heat penalties will bring more fun to the game? Will they bring back enough retired players to offset another exodus of players who get pissed off with another layer of ******** mechanics?

[Khobai]

Rustyhammer, on 29 August 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Care to list what kind of possible heat penalties you think will be good for MWO, including your thoughts on how they will change the current game play?
So far I see your heat penalties will only benefit long range snipers and lurm boats by nerfing any kind of aggressive gameplay.

When you reach a certain heat threshold, say 40-50 heat, your mech would attempt to shut down. Pressing the override button before that would override that shutdown and you would suffer cumulative heat penalties for overriding. Youd also no longer be able to override a 100% shutdown. At 100% heat youll always shutdown no matter what, just like in battletech. And your mech's heatsinks would still add to your heat capacity for determining what your mech's 100% heat capacity is.

The penalties would be as follows:

HUD deterioration. Scrambling of HUD elements. Sensor locks, detailed sensor info, etc... would all be affected. So no its not helping LRM boats if they lose their locks.

Mobility penalties. Your mech would suffer decreased agility/max speed from overheating.

Component damage. Your mech would suffer critical damage to components (including ammo) when you overheat. That makes more sense than suffering internal structure damage. Its not the internal structure of a mech thats going to be destroyed by overheating, its the electronic components and ammo...

Shutdown triggers. One at 40-50 heat that can be overriden. One at 100% heat that cannot be overriden.

Rustyhammer, on 29 August 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Also, do you genuinely believe these new heat penalties will bring more fun to the game? Will they bring back enough retired players to offset another exodus of players who get pissed off with another layer of ******** mechanics?

I think it would bring more fun to the game. Because instead of having a strict heat cap of 40-50 youd have the option to push your heat past that cap and suffer additional penalties. Having options is always more fun than not having options IMO.

Its better than having a 40-50 heat cap. Players will quit if that goes live.

This is effectively a compromise between the current system and having a 40-50 heat cap.

Will it bring players back to the game? no. but nothing will do that at this point.

Edited by Khobai, 29 August 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[Grus]

FORSHAME!!! Much shame to the pilot that is maxing out the prefomance of the mech! Mech shame to the pilot that does not want to shut down in front of an enemy and alow them easy shots! SHAME! ...

#sarcasm..

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 29 August 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

Its better than having a 40-50 heat cap. Players will quit if that goes live.

ROFL.

Except the feedback from the latest PTS with a 50 cap has been exceptionally positive as opposed to other things like Skill Tree and Energy Draw, the former actually made people quit.

This heat cap change will not.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 August 2018 - 05:31 AM.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 30 August 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

ROFL.

Except the feedback from the latest PTS with a 50 cap has been exceptionally positive as opposed to other things like Skill Tree and Energy Draw, the former actually made people quit.

This heat cap change will not.

Wrong.

The concept of a uniform heat cap for all mechs is inherently flawed. Why should mechs with only energy hardpoints be subject to the same heat cap as mechs with ballistic or mixed hardpoints? Why should an assault mech thats huge, slow, barely able to torso twist, and assumes much more risk when poking out have the same heat cap as a light? That makes absolutely no sense.

Theres also the huge loophole with Gauss. Because of their high damage to heat ratio, gauss rifles will allow players to fire off huge 70+ damage alphas without exceeding 50 heat. Gauss vomit will become dominant because it completely circumvents what the 50 heat cap is attempting to stop: huge alphastrikes. No other PPFLD combinations will even compete with gauss vomit.

Lastly none of the core imbalances between IS and clan tech are being addressed. Clan DHS are still vastly superior to IS DHS. Clan mechs will still be able to mount way more heatsinks and dissipate heat at a significantly faster rate. The massive disparity between CDHS and ISDHS is going to be even more pronounced with a lower heat cap and faster dissipation.

Unless PGI address those issues in a future PTS, this whole 50 heat cap nonsense will be a disaster.

[justcallme A S H]

You might think it's flawed and you know what? Good for you because you think a pile of stuff is flawed, doesn't work, needs mechanic changes. And in the light of facts, proof and maths - you simply resort to ad-hominum points or simply stop replyinging once you are proven wrong with facts... Which honestly isn't hard, in fact it's so easy it's almost boring these days.

[panzer1b]

With certain exceptions, i almost always enable override, if not when the game starts, then the second im expecting some sort of heated fight to begin (as in past the poke phase).

While i do agree with some posters here that there should be actual incentives to not ride the heat threshold at 90+%, the way the game plays out, its utterly stupid to shut down mid combat, since those ~4 seconds are more then enough for an enemy to neuter you if you were fresh, or just kill you if you took any damage beforehand. In the case of high DPS pinpoint weapons like UAC boats (against static targets they are guaranteed to hit one hitbox every click), its usually a death sentence since the raw DPS will cut you in half from 100% fresh every time.

What i usually do is if i can, i try to pull back when im about to cook myself, since disengaging and killing em later is prefered to dying, but if its a hopeless situation or a case where im 90% certain the next shot will kill an enemy, i leave override on until they are killed (or i die of cooking), and then the moment i get an opportunity, disengage override and let myself shut down to save the mech. This is what the current heat system pushes, using override as default enabled, and disabling it only after getting a kill or when you know its safe to let yourself cool down, rather then allow a shutdown at the worst possible time.

That and whats most infuriating is when your heat spikes to 101% (and results in NO damage at all), and still shuts you down for the FULL duration of the shutdown, while shutting down at 200% results in the same exact shutdown time penalty discounting the extra time it takes to cool off. Essentially, it punishes people that mistime their alfa strike by a fraction of a second, and in this game without macros or being a robit, its very hard to judge 100% when its safe to fire your next shot, and mistiming that by a second or so can get you killed. Thats probably the biggest reason i always enble override, just to keep bad game code from getting me killed. make the reboot sequence related to % over heat cap, overheat to 150%, and its punishing, overheat by 1%, and your hud reboots in a second or so, not the full duration.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 30 August 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

You might think it's flawed and you know what? Good for you because you think a pile of stuff is flawed, doesn't work, needs mechanic changes. And in the light of facts, proof and maths - you simply resort to ad-hominum points or simply stop replyinging once you are proven wrong with facts... Which honestly isn't hard, in fact it's so easy it's almost boring these days.

Ive explained why its flawed. Unlike you I actually back up my arguments with reasons.

And no if im proven wrong I freely admit that im wrong. Its okay to be wrong, its part of being human. Unlike you I dont have to try and win arguments on the internet to feel good about myself. lmao.

But its kindve hard to prove me wrong when you cant even construct a proper counter-argument. The one relying on ad hominums, smokescreens, and condescending insults is you. Your posts here demonstrate that.

Really theres no point in you posting at all. You contribute nothing. And if the game proves me wrong I will admit I was wrong with or without your useless posts. But until im proven wrong, I will continue to voice my concerns about lowering the heat cap to 50. Especially with regards to gauss which no one has convinced me wont be a huge problem; gauss vomit still allows huge 70-80 damage alphas while staying under the 50 heat cap. Seems like a legit concern to me.

justcallme A S H, on 30 August 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

And in the light of facts, proof and maths

And where are these mythical facts, proofs, and maths? They might as well be unicorns. Since we have not seen any from you. Your "opinion" (if you could even call your posts that since they have no real substance to them) is not a fact, proof, or a math so stop presenting it as such.

panzer1b, on 30 August 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

That and whats most infuriating is when your heat spikes to 101% (and results in NO damage at all), and still shuts you down for the FULL duration of the shutdown, while shutting down at 200% results in the same exact shutdown time penalty discounting the extra time it takes to cool off.

Yeah that doesnt make sense. I would actually prefer if 100% shutdowns couldnt be overridden. 100% heat should represent the level of heat where your mech can simply no longer function. There should be no overriding that. Reaching 100% heat should be one of the worst things you can do as a player and forcing a shutdown with no way to override it would make it every bit as punishing as it should be.

Instead there should be shutdown triggers that occur earlier than 100% (like once you hit 50 heat). Those should be the shutdowns you can override, but doing so should incur a heat penalty. Exactly like how it works in battletech. Essentially 50 heat would be a "soft heat cap" and your heatsinks would determine your "hard heat cap" And overriding past 50 would incur heat penalties.

Edited by Khobai, 30 August 2018 - 04:08 PM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

yes. it will save your life.

[Christophe Ivanov]

I see more and more suicides happen and mostly due to override.But having said that, I have had my mech suicide twice just from over heating and I never use override to begin with. In last time, I stood there for over 5 seconds waiting for it to cool off and it suddenly suicides on me. Never ever seen it do that before. I firmly believe something is not right.