50 replies to this topic

[denAirwalkerrr]

Seriously wtf? Just because weapon isn’t producing heat it now requires nerfs within new system?

LGR useless
HGR requires std so for 55-75 tonners only one can be taken with few backup mediums and dual HGRs can be taken only by very slow 90-100 tonners
IS Gauss too heavy for its’ damage and dps and only few mechs can put them in arms and IS laservomit is generally bad so only adequate standard gauss+vomit mech now is 2xGauss+4xERML WHM
Clan ‘Gauss expolion detected’ and almost every single mech which was using two of them aside from DS is garbage now and they’re only taken as a loophole in ghost heat system on it’s own even it has relatively trash damage and DPS for its weight

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 28 August 2018 - 01:15 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

For whatever reason, Deathstrike remains a bogeyman to forum-goers simply because its big scary "alpha number" hasn't changed. Of course, this involves players ignoring everything else that changed in regards to the mech's ability to actually burst through the drastic reduction in heat capacity.

Take, for example, the 94-point Deathstrike. The mech has been seen as the poster-child for pointing out the problem of large alphas, yet no one actually ran the mech on Live because it was too hot and had too little of a burst potential. Well, that burst potential is even lower on PTS 2.1 as a result of the heatcap reduction, yet somehow people are still complaining about it.

Even the standard 80-point Deathstrike was hit hard by PTS 2.1, dropping its burst potential (damage output before overheating) from 192.53 damage (depending on exact skill-tree build) to 141.36. This is largely because the mech cannot alpha more than once in row from an empty heatbar now, and must wait nearly 2.5 seconds extra before it fires a second time.

So alpha vomit mechs not only must wait longer to fire repeatedly, but also have a lower maximum damage output before overheating. All this while brawlers benefit from the increased heat dissipation too, which further increases their ability to push. The problem of alpha vomit solves itself once there is a counter to it back in the game, which is brawling.

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 02:37 AM.

[Sable Dove]

It's because regardless of how effective it is in a match, dual gauss is not fun to face; it's too easy to lump large amounts of damage on a single component of your choosing, which means if your armour is low on a component, or you're just in a light or light-medium, dual gauss can easily destroy that component with little skill and little risk required, potentially leading to an instant kill that wasn't really reasonably avoidable.

Any loadout that can core mechs this easily is not going to be fun to face no matter how ineffective it is in the long term.

Imagine a weapon that Deals 2000 damage, but can only be fired once, and you can't have any backup weapons. From a competitive point of view, it's garbage. You can never get more than one kill in a game, and if you miss, that's it for you. But for the player on the receiving end of that one shot, this fact doesn't make it any more fun when they get insta-killed with no chance to fight back.

Obviously this example is very exaggerated, but it's more or less the reason some people want dual-gauss (and other high-pinpoint-damage alpha-strikes) nerfed. The 6PPC Stalker was hated way back when not because it was too effective (it was basically useless for actually winning games), but because poking your head over a ridge and getting instantly crippled or killed before you even have a chance to spot the enemy is not fun. Especially in a game without respawns and long load/match times.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 02:31 AM, said:

It's because regardless of how effective it is in a match, dual gauss is not fun to face; it's too easy to lump large amounts of damage on a single component of your choosing, which means if your armour is low on a component, or you're just in a light or light-medium, dual gauss can easily destroy that component with little skill and little risk required, potentially leading to an instant kill that wasn't really reasonably avoidable.

But 30 damage isn't exactly that scary, even if it is PPFLD. And if you are consistently getting hit in the same component by it, that says more on your ability to move than it does on the ability of the shooter.

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Any loadout that can core mechs this easily is not going to be fun to face no matter how ineffective it is in the long term.

Yea, don't stare at them. The mobility changes on PTS 2.0/2.1 should help with that too.

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Imagine a weapon that Deals 2000 damage, but can only be fired once, and you can't have any backup weapons. From a competitive point of view, it's garbage. You can never get more than one kill in a game, and if you miss, that's it for you. But for the player on the receiving end of that one shot, this fact doesn't make it any more fun when they get insta-killed with no chance to fight back.

Obviously this example is very exaggerated, but it's more or less the reason some people want dual-gauss (and other high-pinpoint-damage alpha-strikes) nerfed. The 6PPC Stalker was hated way back when not because it was too effective (it was basically useless for actually winning games), but because poking your head over a ridge and getting instantly crippled or killed before you even have a chance to spot the enemy is not fun. Especially in a game without respawns and long load/match times.

Yet people would point at the 94-point alpha Deathstrike as some sort of walking-death, which not only was not PPFLD for any more than 30 damage, but could not one-shot anything heavier than an unskilled/unquirked 45-tonner that stared straight at it for the entire duration of the HLL burn. The heat of the alpha effectively makes the mech unusable for anything more than absolute seal clubbing, so no one actually runs it on Live and instead opts for the more manageable 80-point alpha version.

My point is outright alpha damage means little if you are going to ignore everything else about the function of the mech and its weapons, such as 60 PPFLD (6 PPC Stalker) versus 30 PPFLD (dual Gauss). Long gone are the days of big, drawback-free PPFLDs since GaussPPC was outright obliterated, yet the community still grasps onto the fear of it.

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 03:09 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 02:49 AM, said:

But 30 damage isn't exactly that scary, even if it is PPFLD. And if you are consistently getting hit in the same component by it, that says more on your ability to move than it does on the ability of the shooter.

Yea, don't stare at them.

Yet people would point at the 94-point alpha Deathstrike as some sort of walking-death, which not only was not PPFLD for any more than 30 damage, but could not one-shot anything heavier than an unskilled/unquirked 45-tonner that stared straight at it for the entire duration of the HLL burn. The heat of the alpha effectively makes the mech unusable for anything more than absolute seal clubbing, so no one actually runs it on Live and instead opts for the more manageable 80-point alpha version.

My point is outright alpha damage means little if you are going to ignore everything else about the function of the mech and its weapons, such as 60 PPFLD (6 PPC Stalker) versus 30 PPFLD (dual Gauss). Long gone are the days of big, drawback-free PPFLDs since GaussPPC was outright obliterated, yet the community still grasps onto the fear of it.

This.

Vee Vee, on 28 August 2018 - 02:23 AM, said:

Look what you wrote about the Deathstrike and BAS-B in the QP tier list. You answered your own question.

Edit: appreciate the lists BTW thanks.

BAS still there because I’m lazy ***. It’s absolutely freaking horrible with new side torsos. And will rightfully go to tier 2-3 with next iteration. DS as I said is just a perfect utilization of clan gaussvomit ghost heat loophole with very high mounts and good hitboxes as for assault. Try running 2xGauss HBK-IIC for example and figure out why laservomit HBK-IIC-A is tenfold better.

[Sable Dove]

The only way to not expose the damaged component is to face away from them (and even then, between latency and hitboxes, this doesn't always work either), meaning you can't shoot them. How exactly are you planning on defeating the enemy if you don't shoot them? A half-competent player will just wait for you to expose the critical component before shooting.

Not to mention that the longer the match goes on, the less fun it is to face, because odds are you'll be weakened already and just one shot could easily kill you. I do it with dual Heavy PPCs on one build, and heavy PPCs are significantly less practical than dual gauss in most cases (weight being the only real advantage HPPCs get). Being able to kill a mech at 70+% HP in one or two shots isn't fun for them, I'm sure.

30 damage that can but put on a component of your choice is pretty threatening. Even laser vomit is more fun to face, simply because it's harder for the attacker to get all of that damage on one component, and they'll at least eventually get hot and lose DPS.

Dual heavy gauss is even less fun to face, though it's thankfully much more rare. 50 damage to one component can cripple or kill even fresh heavy mechs in 2-3 shots. Fresh mediums can generally survive one shot from full armour, barely.

And again, it's not about actual effectiveness or win chances. It's about how it feels to play against. Getting 2-shot and losing your mech at a high percentage of HP is not fun. Especially not fun because MWO has a lot of dead time; waiting for matchmaking, waiting for players to load, waiting for map selection, waiting for the dropships, walking 3 minutes to get in range. Dying before you get a real chance because an enemy mech has a build that can 2-shot you from 600m with minimal risk is simply not fun.

Edited by Sable Dove, 28 August 2018 - 03:25 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

So in essence, your entire complaint boils down to that you think 30 PPFLD is too high. How do you feel about triple AC10 or six AC5? Are they as scary? If you could cap PPFLD at a certain value, what would it be?
How did you feel about Energy Draw, which turned all builds into DPS racers?

These issues are outside of the scope of the PTS by the way, which does nothing to Gauss or any other form of ballistic-based PPFLD besides increased dissipation rates.

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 03:36 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

It’s not the weapons. It’s inability of pugs to understand to not poke the freaking dual HGR mechs under 300-400m. Srsly all 50% of players do in this game - find the worst possible spot to poke with like 4-5 enemy mechs looking there, do it 2-3 times, die, go cry that pinpoint weapons are op and he know the game cuz he’s tier 1.

You know what I do when I know there is 2xHGR assault behind corner? I go the hell away from it and fight other mechs. As it should be against 90-100 tonners. While if I see KDK/DWF I just go and kill it screaming: “your CT is now mine poor soul omnomnomnomnom!”

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 28 August 2018 - 03:50 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

So in essence, your entire complaint boils down to that you think 30 PPFLD is too high. How do you feel about triple AC10 or six AC5? Are they as scary? If you could cap PPFLD at a certain value, what would it be?
How did you feel about Energy Draw, which turned all builds into DPS racers?

These issues are outside of the scope of the PTS by the way, which does nothing to Gauss or any other form of ballistic-based PPFLD besides increased dissipation rates.

Well, obviously you can't go lower than 25, because that's the highest-damage PPFL weapon in the game. Personally, I'd prefer it if no PP weapon over 15 damage could be fired with other PPFL weapons. Obviously I'm not going to claim this is the un-debatable best option because it would require testing first.

Triple and quad AC10s and 4+ AC5s are also pretty threatening because they also have higher rate of fire, so precision is even less important than dual gauss. At least they have slower projectiles and are consequently harder to target critical components at range. These builds also tend to have wide mounts, leading to spreading against moving targets as you lose convergence. Dual gauss builds tend to have fairly close mounts.


I really don't get the thought that not firing literally every weapon at the exact same instant is going to turn the game into a DPS slugfest. The only difference is that instead of having to be exposed for 0.5 seconds to deal 30 damage, you'd have to be exposed for 1.5 seconds to deal 30 damage. After the drop in your 1-second burst DPS, short-term and long-term DPS would be largely unaffected. If you couldn't fire them 2 at a time, you might actually see some buffs, too, since gauss weapons are largely only used in pairs. As a result, it's rare to see anything under 65 tons with a gauss weapon because a single gauss weapon isn't particularly effective.

Also, if you're going to bring up that this isn't in the scope of the PTS, why did you ask this on the PTS feedback forum?

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

Also, if you're going to bring up that this isn't in the scope of the PTS, why did you ask this on the PTS feedback forum?

I asked it because of after days of debating the PTS with you I finally got you to admit you fundamentally think 30 PPLFD is too high, regardless of any other changes that affect energy weapons.

I am doing this to demonstrate that you have a lack of understanding of basic game mechanics and their application to combat. A prime example would be you cannot see how capping maximum damage output would lead to a DPS race, that being if every mech can only output say 25 damage in a single instance that players wouldn't just try and min-max to deal 25 damage as often as possible. We already went through testing on this, by the way. It was called Energy Draw and it was convuluted and terrible. Assuming you've ever taken a debate class before, I am attempting to discredit you so as to diminish the value of your PTS input.

It is the slow homegenization of builds and archetypes that is killing this game. The more you homegenize, the less options you have for counter-play and the more "meta" certain builds and mechs become. If that is what interests you, then great, but you'll lose any player that doesn't specifically want your playstyle. A better option is to open up more varied playstyles by limiting (i.e. nerfing) the pillars of certain builds (like PTS 2.1 does to the burst fire of alpha vomit). This allows more builds/archetypes to shine brighter, and thus naturally changes the meta without outright killing an archetype (see: GaussPPC).

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 04:23 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Vee Vee, on 28 August 2018 - 04:13 AM, said:

Here is half the problem. The PSR doesn't work properly. PGI won't fix it though so much like faction play pug stomps it just drives players away because they can't have fun. Game would be more fun if teams were better balanced but we will never see that PTS.

Off-topic to PTS, but I'll see if I can motivate Tarogato to make a stink again about the team-building mechanics of the lobby system.

[Sable Dove]

If making it so that you have to fire half of your weapons 0.5 seconds after the other half absolutely destroys your build, then I'm going to have a hard time feeling that bad for you.

Not sure why people are so obsessed with burst DPS that they can't bear to spread that damage over a second or so. Especially when laser vomit already spreads the damage over more than a second.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

If making it so that you have to fire half of your weapons 0.5 seconds after the other half absolutely destroys your build, then I'm going to have a hard time feeling that bad for you.

Not sure why people are so obsessed with burst DPS that they can't bear to spread that damage over a second or so. Especially when laser vomit already spreads the damage over more than a second.

Because then you nerf ballistic weapons without touching energy weapons. Again, we went through this already with Energy Draw. There was a reason why PGI did not implement it. Again, you make my point for me that you lack a fundamental understanding of the game's mechanics.

By the way, I don't mean to single you out or pick on you directly. I understand at this point that I cannot change your mind in regards to PTS 2.1 or how MWO's core combat works, but part of debating is convincing the audience. So I apologize for any negative connotations I may make in our debate.

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 04:42 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 04:36 AM, said:

Because then you nerf ballistic weapons without touching energy weapons. Again, we went through this already with Energy Draw. There was a reason why PGI did not implement it.

Yet again, you make my point for me that you lack a fundamental understanding of the game's mechanics.

Oh no, I didn't address literally every balance issue in MWO with one minor change. If only there were some sort of change that would affect energy weapons while leaving gauss rifles basically untouched.

Plus, all the 'pro' players on the forum seem to think ballistics are already the most powerful weapons, but the common folk just don't understand that yet. So... Mission accomplished, I guess. You're welcome.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 04:41 AM, said:

Oh no, I didn't address literally every balance issue in MWO with one minor change. If only there were some sort of change that would affect energy weapons while leaving gauss rifles basically untouched.

Plus, all the 'pro' players on the forum seem to think ballistics are already the most powerful weapons, but the common folk just don't understand that yet. So... Mission accomplished, I guess. You're welcome.

Sorry, I edited my post while you were typing yours.

I rank in the top <1% of players on the server, and I COMPLETELY DISAGREE that ballistics "are already the most powerful weapons." There is a reason why we are in a poke meta, and it isn't ballistics. It is laser vomit, which cannot be effectively pushed on by brawlers since the nerfs from Civil War. PTS 2.1 fixes that while leaving Gauss rifles untouched, so YES, THIS IS THAT CHANGE.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 04:44 AM, said:

Sorry, I edited my post while you were typing yours.

I rank in the top <1% of players on the server, and I COMPLETELY DISAGREE that ballistics "are already the most powerful weapons." There is a reason why we are in a poke meta, and it isn't ballistics. It is laser vomit, which cannot be effectively pushed on by brawlers since the nerfs from Civil War. PTS 2.1 fixes that while leaving Gauss rifles untouched, so YES, THIS IS THAT CHANGE.

The thing with gauss though, is that it's only really effective in pairs, but if you buff the singular, the pairs would be too much. So if you restrict it to one gauss at a time, you can then buff the gauss rifles as necessary.

I don't really think ballistics in general are that big a deal, honestly. I think certain builds are annoying, but it's mostly because of the seizure-inducing flashes on impact.

Gauss is too weak alone, too strong in a pair. The obvious solution is to make them only usable alone and buff them. As long as you can take a pair and fire them simultaneously, they won't ever get buffed enough to be usable alone. I'm more okay with HPPCs because they're super hot and have a minimum range, and ACs are much harder to hit moving targets and not spread damage due to the slower projectiles.

Regardless, my answer to the original question remains: they're not fun to face in pairs, and people generally only take them in pairs. I offered a solution that affects only gauss rifles, and makes it easier to balance them in the future. While I also think high pinpoint alphas are a problem, they're not single-handedly ruining the game in general. I would be happy if they implemented PTS 2.1 (at least as far as heat changes go), but I would like to see a test with an even lower heat cap with much higher dissipation (specifically, internal heat sinks buffed).

Edited by Sable Dove, 28 August 2018 - 05:02 AM.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 05:02 AM, said:

The thing with gauss though, is that it's only really effective in pairs, but if you buff the singular, the pairs would be too much. So if you restrict it to one gauss at a time, you can then buff the gauss rifles as necessary.

Why bother changing them then?

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I don't really think ballistics in general are that big a deal, honestly. I think certain builds are annoying, but it's mostly because of the seizure-inducing flashes on impact.

Why bother changing them then?

Quote

Gauss is too weak alone, too strong in a pair. The obvious solution is to make them only usable alone and buff them. As long as you can take a pair and fire them simultaneously, they won't ever get buffed enough to be usable alone. I'm more okay with HPPCs because they're super hot and have a minimum range, and ACs are much harder to hit moving targets and not spread damage due to the slower projectiles.

Regardless, my answer to the original question remains: they're not fun to face in pairs, and people generally only take them in pairs. I offered a solution that affects only gauss rifles, and makes it easier to balance them in the future. While I also think high pinpoint alphas are a problem, they're not single-handedly ruining the game in general. I would be happy if they implemented PTS 2.1 (at least as far as heat changes go), but I would like to see a test with an even lower heat cap with much higher dissipation (specifically, internal heat sinks buffed).

Are you saying the dual cGauss HBK-IIC is overpowered? If yes, then I would argue you have no knowledge of actual gameplay. If not, then why call dual cGauss overpowered? In a debate, this is called "painting you into a corner".

So what makes dual cGauss overpowered? Is it its combination with energy weapons (e.g. Deathstrike)? If so, then how do you limit that power without nerfing cGauss?

Oh, I know! You limit the power potential of the weapons combined with it! Kind of like how PTS 2.1 nerfs energy vomit by reducing heatcap, thus reducing maximum damage output...

[Sable Dove]

First, because making single gauss viable adds more builds than restricting dual gauss invalidates.

Second, aside from toning down the painful flashing form rapid hits, I didn't suggest changing ballistics aside from gauss rifles.

Third, I have never once in this thread mentioned cGauss.

[Rydiak Randborir]

Sable Dove, on 28 August 2018 - 05:25 AM, said:

First, because making single gauss viable adds more builds than restricting dual gauss invalidates.

I would greatly argue this point.

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Second, aside from toning down the painful flashing form rapid hits, I didn't suggest changing ballistics aside from gauss rifles.

You said 30 PPFLD was too high, to which I specifically brought up triple AC10 and six AC5. You said you'd prefer if these weapons were required to fire on a delay. Suggesting that the impact flashes from ballistics are a problem is just pure insanity.

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Third, I have never once in this thread mentioned cGauss.

The ENTIRE ARGUMENT has always been about Deathstrike, which is the bogeyman of MWO (see the very top posts in this very thread).... Are you REALLY suggesting that isGauss is overpowered now??

Edited by Rydiak, 28 August 2018 - 05:32 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

You said 30 PPFLD was too high, to which I specifically brought up triple AC10 and six AC5. You said you'd prefer if these weapons were required to fire on a delay. Suggesting that the impact flashes from ballistics are a problem is just pure insanity.

That's not a nerf to the ballistics. The weapons are no less effective. The nerf would only be to specific builds, and even then, it's barely a nerf for skilled players. If not being able to fire three AC10s at the same time ruins your build, then try a different build.

Rydiak, on 28 August 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

The ENTIRE ARGUMENT has always been about Deathstrike, which is the bogeyman of MWO (see the very top posts in this very thread).... Are you REALLY suggesting that isGauss is overpowered now??

Is that why they barely mentioned the Deathstrike at all, and specifically complained about IS Gauss being too weak for 3/4 of the opening post?

And no, I didn't say overpowered. I said it's not fun to face. Which is pretty much just as bad as being overpowered, since a game's purpose is ostensibly to be fun.

Edited by Sable Dove, 28 August 2018 - 05:44 AM.