80 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

I really appreciate that it's getting done. I'll reserve any criticism to constructive feedback after I've played a good sized sample of matches.

I hope this is an indication of changes to come and am just glad things are happening.

[SFC174]

xe N on, on 01 September 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

Clearly better then currently - however, anything is better then now.

Comments:
- There should be separate SSR for QP and for FP. Having a high PSR by QP means nothing in FP, since complete different maps and goals are played.
- Still solo players end off as filling material and will have longer wait times. While the new matchmaker will maybe balance groups, there is still no reason for solo players to actually prefer FP over QP.

Perhaps, but FP as it stands is tailored to groups anyway. This will make the solo experience better - if executed properly. Not as good as a proper group drop, but better than it is now. And solo players are less likely to get the derision and disdain if the more skilled ones go with the bigger groups.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

https://picload.org/...805_12.jpg.html

Well something has to be done, this is not fun for anybody. Eitehr you ahve them on your side and you loose two mechs to ppl that want to shoot an enemy that is back in cover for a good 5 seconds but somehow they cannot take their fingers of teh fire button, or you get a really really bad game, which in this example could be won 2 vs 12 where teh combined matchscore of two ppl would have outdamaged the enemy team.

But i guess the population is so low that a MM will not find any matches. But in orer to fix that one would have to close some buckets. But which? solaris? QP?

Edited by Cara Carcass, 01 September 2018 - 03:02 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

kapusta11, on 01 September 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

Prepare for wait times to skyrocket. Why not just ban solo players and make chat rooms for each faction for players to organize?

Because most of the playerbase are avid super solos who simply won't group up. that's been evidenced over and over sadly.
If you have people that flat out REFUSE to play a team based game with teamwork..can't see how any mm is going to help when the actual problem is the players' attitude.

Edited by Jon Gotham, 01 September 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Jon Gotham, on 01 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Because most of the playerbase are avid super solos who simply won't group up. that's been evidenced over and over sadly.
If you have people that flat out REFUSE to play a team based game with teamwork..can't see how any mm is going to help when the actual problem is the players' attitude.

Not true. They're not "super solos" because they won't ******* TOUCH Solaris - they want a team to carry them. They just don't want to have to do their own part.

The vast majority of the games population *wants* 12 v 12 - they just want to being crap builds and be carried and have teammates keeping them alive while they make stupid choices. They don't want to 1 v 1 some one who isn't worse than them. They don't want to do solo v solo - they want carried and they want game mechanics broken to favor them somehow.

That's the reality of it. They want teams, they just don't want to be expected to contribute.

[Davegt27]

so far SSR is used for solo players

you can make input here (I think)

https://mwomercs.com...on-aug-20-2018/

never seen a super solo player

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 01 September 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Not true. They're not "super solos" because they won't ******* TOUCH Solaris - they want a team to carry them. They just don't want to have to do their own part.

I know several good players who prefer to stay solo, stay back, and use pugs as meatshields. They always go 3K+ damage at the expense of their teammates. They would win more if they drop with their units, but they drop solo either to pad their stats, or just are sick of the politics and the drama of organized units.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 September 2018 - 09:10 PM.

[Khobai]

this definitely an improvement but ill believe it when i see it

the reward structure for loyalists needs to be changed too, because being a loyalist is entirely pointless from a reward standpoint

[SFC174]

MischiefSC, on 01 September 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Not true. They're not "super solos" because they won't ******* TOUCH Solaris - they want a team to carry them. They just don't want to have to do their own part.

The vast majority of the games population *wants* 12 v 12 - they just want to being crap builds and be carried and have teammates keeping them alive while they make stupid choices. They don't want to 1 v 1 some one who isn't worse than them. They don't want to do solo v solo - they want carried and they want game mechanics broken to favor them somehow.

That's the reality of it. They want teams, they just don't want to be expected to contribute.

I don't think you're being fair. Yes, players like that do exist. But to say that they make up the majority because they don't want to play Solaris simply doesn't carry water.

Solaris if flawed in sooooo many ways. Playstyle and therefore builds are very limited compared to regular 12v12 modes. If you want to win you have a very limited choice of mechs in each class. And if you're of average or below skill level those choices are probably even more limited. Having 7 buckets also makes finding a match much harder than in other modes. And for some people the relative quickness of a focused 1v1 battle isn't appealing (everyone has their preferences)

In summary, just because people aren't interested in largely close in fighting/brawling, having to mainly choose IS mechs from limited options if they want to win, playing short matches, and having relatively long wait times vs. actual play time doesn't mean they want to be carried and bring a crap build. They just might not like those things.

[kapusta11]

Jon Gotham, on 01 September 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Because most of the playerbase are avid super solos who simply won't group up. that's been evidenced over and over sadly.
If you have people that flat out REFUSE to play a team based game with teamwork..can't see how any mm is going to help when the actual problem is the players' attitude.

That's not true. PGI tried splitting the queues in FP and it was solo players who struggled to find a match. There simply wasn't enough of them.

Edited by kapusta11, 01 September 2018 - 11:40 PM.

[xe N on]

kapusta11, on 01 September 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:

That's not true. PGI tried splitting the queues in FP and it was solo players who struggled to find a match. There simply wasn't enough of them.

They split the queue for less than a weekend after introducing a patch and than decided to undo. It was a joke, because I think most solo players didn't even notice that there was a split queue introduced in FP. I couldn't even try because I was not at home that weekend. In fact, split queues for solo / groups would have brought me back into faction play.

It was just a hypocritical action by PGI to find a reason to not split the queue, because group players whined a river that splitting queue would increase wait time for them (and more important would remove their easy mode baby seal farming). Groups propagated that FP is a team only mode and should stay as this.

If they had split queues over a month, I think this would had a good chance to revive FP for solo players. And that would be the stepping stone to bring some more solo players into teams and FP units. So a win-win situation for both sides. However, lobbyist group players as well as PGI screwed up.

Now, where are all these groups that want to play FP? In fact we have a semi-dead game mode that was designed for some short-term interest of a small fraction of diva-like players that finally decided to not support the mode and moved away, because of minor design flaws.

Edited by xe N on, 02 September 2018 - 12:09 AM.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 01 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

I know several good players who prefer to stay solo, stay back, and use pugs as meatshields. They always go 3K+ damage at the expense of their teammates. They would win more if they drop with their units, but they drop solo either to pad their stats, or just are sick of the politics and the drama of organized units.

What you said rings true but, misses the larger issue EL: if MS, or 228, or anyone of the other good teams are allowed to exist as 12 man cells, and, those teams consistently farm noobs and massacre less skilled teams, no one will play because it can never be your version of fun?! No one will stay long enough to be skilled enough to do so.... You do realize that I hope, The learning curve takes "years" to have that amount of skill in the game; and, the skilled team drove off dozens of teams at least trying to be better in FP..... In my case, two complete teams..... We could play other games and have fun far easier than put up with the FP antics that were and are going on..... That's the truth EL..... I know, it sounds like an excuse but, it is the reality of video games....choice.

Player disparity was tested when PGI dropped Solaris: to return to the lucrative Arcade FPS venue.....it failed because the game itself can no longer support the "average" player or "average team".... The difference between player skill is so extreme, there literally is nothing average left.

EL, it's time for the game to start over..... And, team size needs to be no larger than 3 players. And, not four 'divisions' of 3 from the same teams or from other highly ranked competitive teams.... The gap between skilled and new is too great a challenge to overcome; because, we lose far more new players to that effort than we gain.... Something has to change the paradigm radically to get the game out of the "Mobius Loop" we are on.

Edited by Asym, 02 September 2018 - 04:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

What you said rings true but, misses the larger issue EL: if MS, or 228, or anyone of the other good teams are allowed to exist as 12 man cells, and, those teams consistently farm noobs and massacre less skilled teams, no one will play because it can never be your version of fun?! No one will stay long enough to be skilled enough to do so....

To lessen pug farming is the entire point of the MM for FP. Now MM will do its best to pit two 12-mans against each other. Sure, there will be times when one side will have too many organized teams, but since faction switch penalty has already been removed, the pugs have the choice to hop onto the advantageous side, thus forcing some of the organized units to move to the other side, or risk long wait.

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

You do realize that I hope, The learning curve takes "years" to have that amount of skill in the game; and, the skilled team drove off dozens of teams at least trying to be better in FP..... In my case, two complete teams..... We could play other games and have fun far easier than put up with the FP antics that were and are going on..... That's the truth EL..... I know, it sounds like an excuse but, it is the reality of video games....choice.

No, it is both choice and excuse. I stayed as Marik pug for several months getting pummeled by all organized units, but I didn't quit, I vowed to become better, and learn the mode. I then joined Marik units and dropped as part of them for almost a year, getting to know organized play and actually learning to contribute to the group. Once I became top scorer of my old Marik units, yet still falling prey to big merc units that decided the faction map, I vowed to become even better an joined the newly formed Mercstar, and further learned the intricacies of FP.
Now I don't take **** from most units out there, because I learned how to play and enjoy FP, and I know what it takes to get there. I could have used "organized units massacring poor old pug like me" as an excuse to quit FP or even MWO back in 2015, but I chose to stay and get better, instead of running away, and that had paid off big time. I play FP more than QP now cause it is very enjoyable.

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

Player disparity was tested when PGI dropped Solaris: to return to the lucrative Arcade FPS venue.....it failed because the game itself can no longer support the "average" player or "average team".... The difference between player skill is so extreme, there literally is nothing average left.

Solaris is far more skill dependent than that of FP. In FP pugs can still beat 12-mans as long as the drop caller is good and go for objectives. There are plenty of completely average units/solos playing FP--I know a dozen of such average units but for the sake of name and shame policy I will not reveal them. Besides, skill disparity precisely why PGI is working on the MM system for FP.

Asym, on 02 September 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

EL, it's time for the game to start over..... And, team size needs to be no larger than 3 players. And, not four 'divisions' of 3 from the same teams or from other highly ranked competitive teams.... The gap between skilled and new is too great a challenge to overcome; because, we lose far more new players to that effort than we gain.... Something has to change the paradigm radically to get the game out of the "Mobius Loop" we are on.

What you are proposing is wrong. Your suggestion of max three-man size would basically kill off medium/big sized organized units--the actual contributors to the FP queue, not these random solo pugs who mostly join during events. And those units in turn are kept alive by the ability to drop together and socialize.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 September 2018 - 06:14 AM.

[kapusta11]

xe N on, on 01 September 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

They split the queue for less than a weekend after introducing a patch and than decided to undo. It was a joke, because I think most solo players didn't even notice that there was a split queue introduced in FP. I couldn't even try because I was not at home that weekend. In fact, split queues for solo / groups would have brought me back into faction play.

It was just a hypocritical action by PGI to find a reason to not split the queue, because group players whined a river that splitting queue would increase wait time for them (and more important would remove their easy mode baby seal farming). Groups propagated that FP is a team only mode and should stay as this.

If they had split queues over a month, I think this would had a good chance to revive FP for solo players. And that would be the stepping stone to bring some more solo players into teams and FP units. So a win-win situation for both sides. However, lobbyist group players as well as PGI screwed up.

Now, where are all these groups that want to play FP? In fact we have a semi-dead game mode that was designed for some short-term interest of a small fraction of diva-like players that finally decided to not support the mode and moved away, because of minor design flaws.

Well, unlike you I was there to drop as both a solo player and as a member of a group so let me tell you how it went. There wasn't enough SOLO players in SOLO queue. GROUP queue was fine, in fact it was great because you fought other groups which is FUN, pounding SOLO players is not FUN it's a waste of everyone's time hence why groups gradually left FP over all these years. It was scrapped not because group players had a shortage of seals to club but because solo players couldn't find a game.

I agree that they should've kept it for at least a month, i'm sure more teams would come back.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

I really like the idea.


..and here's the 'but':
it all depends on how SSR is measured and what it tells you about a person/group;
is it all just damage, kills and deaths? cause we have that already, and it tells us zero-to-nothing about a persons ability to play well within a team; sure, it gives indicators about somebody being good/bad in a 1v1 or in yolo-que, but that's about it.

as was pointed out, teamplay in general* makes or brakes a proper faction match, so:

pls explain how you want to 'capture' teamplay in all its facets into a number; not saying it can't be done, just really, really curious.


*not saying the yolosolos can't have the game, but they have to do exceptionally well against even average level of teamplayers that communicate.
"that poptart-nightgyr will snipe us to death if we don't do something about it.. >> 12 average joes shooting the crap out of the gyr, gyr dead. next"
did I mention I'm a big fan of teamplay?

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

To lessen pug farming is the entire point of the MM for FP. Now MM will do its best to pit two 12-mans against each other. Sure, there will be times when one side will have too many organized teams, but since faction switch penalty has already been removed, the pugs have the choice to hop onto the advantageous side, thus forcing some of the organized units to move to the other side, or risk long wait.



No, it is both choice and excuse. I stayed as Marik pug for several months getting pummeled by all organized units, but I didn't quit, I vowed to become better, and learn the mode. I then joined Marik units and dropped as part of them for almost a year, getting to know organized play and actually learning to contribute to the group. Once I became top scorer of my old Marik units, yet still falling prey to big merc units that decided the faction map, I vowed to become even better an joined the newly formed Mercstar, and further learned the intricacies of FP.
Now I don't take **** from most units out there, because I learned how to play and enjoy FP, and I know what it takes to get there. I could have used "organized units massacring poor old pug like me" as an excuse to quit FP or even MWO back in 2015, but I chose to stay and get better, instead of running away, and that had paid off big time. I play FP more than QP now cause it is very enjoyable.




Solaris is far more skill dependent than that of FP. In FP pugs can still beat 12-mans as long as the drop caller is good and go for objectives. There are plenty of completely average units/solos playing FP--I know a dozen of such average units but for the sake of name and shame policy I will not reveal them. Besides, skill disparity precisely why PGI is working on the MM system for FP.



What you are proposing is wrong. Your suggestion of max three-man size would basically kill off medium/big sized organized units--the actual contributors to the FP queue, not these random solo pugs who mostly join during events. And those units in turn are kept alive by the ability to drop together and socialize.

Too steep a learning curve and "the needs of the many" argument negate large teams in most games..... It's more profitable to have a larger player base than a highly skilled player base. New players spend much more that older players (vets.)

I'm glad you have excelled and are having a good time ! The rest of us are simply watching and not uninstalling.... Will we ever come back? I doubt it would ever be as it was. So, events only and the student love this and other forums.....they are creating the "next generation" of video games.........that self learn and adapt based on Knowledge based Game play.... We will see of they get off the initial coding and platform expansion software phase.

Goof hunting and if you get bored, drop into WoWs and drop with us one night !

[slide]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

I stayed as Marik pug for several months getting pummeled by all organized units, butone I didn't quit, I vowed to become better, and learn the mode. I then joined Marik units and dropped as part of them for almost a year, getting to know organized play and actually learning to contribute to the group. Once I became top scorer of my old Marik units, yet still falling prey to big merc units that decided the faction map, I vowed to become even better an joined the newly formed Mercstar, and further learned the intricacies of FP. Now I don't take **** from most units out there, because I learned how to play and enjoy FP, and I know what it takes to get there. I could have used "organized units massacring poor old pug like me" as an excuse to quit FP or even MWO back in 2015, but I chose to stay and get better, instead of running away, and that had paid off big time. I play FP more than QP now cause it is very enjoyable.

Well that's good for you and the other "highly competive" types. However for every one like you there are 100 or more who simply don't have the time, motivation or skills to do what you have done.

That is fundamentally why the mode fails. It is why most other games mitigate the "damage" groups can do to the player base, in one form or another. It is why PGI put in a handicapped group mode in QP. PGI and MWO have to exist in the wider world where gamer's have a choice. If they are not happy, the game is too hard, not invested in the franchise etc etc. They move on, often before even spending any money.

PGI needs players, now more than ever. But Asym is right the gap between the "git gud" crowd and newer player is wider than it has ever been. Even someone at my moderate level of skill can see that.

My hope is a "build it, they will come" scenario, that will hopefully keep people engaged in the mode and thus build skills at all levels back up. This will in turn help unit recruitment.

Thebiggest problem I see will actually be with larger dominant groups. If MM is working properly those few groups are going to be playing each other over and over again. They might just get sick of it and start looking for ways to game the system so they can roll over pugs.

[El Bandito]

slide, on 02 September 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well that's good for you and the other "highly competive" types. However for every one like you there are 100 or more who simply don't have the time, motivation or skills to do what you have done.

That is fundamentally why the mode fails.

Ever thought that FP mode is not for the average solo-pug? Cause it is not suppose to be. There is even a warning when you first click on the FP tab. If solo pugs wanna take it easy, then there is QP.

slide, on 02 September 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

It is why most other games mitigate the "damage" groups can do to the player base, in one form or another. It is why PGI put in a handicapped group mode in QP. PGI and MWO have to exist in the wider world where gamer's have a choice. If they are not happy, the game is too hard, not invested in the franchise etc etc. They move on, often before even spending any money.

Hence this new MM system for FP. Under it, big groups are forced to face each other.

slide, on 02 September 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

PGI needs players, now more than ever. But Asym is right the gap between the "git gud" crowd and newer player is wider than it has ever been. Even someone at my moderate level of skill can see that.

Which is why my unit (MS) constantly recruits mediocre to average solo players, teach them the intricacies of FP mode, and turn them into productive part of the FP player base. We enjoy playing with/against pugs that wanna get better at organized play--what we don't give a lick about are those sub 500 damage clueless pugs who are in FP just for the event rewards.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 September 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[slide]

El Bandito, on 02 September 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

snip..

Typical responses heard a million times before, not getting sucked into that argument again. Kudos for your training program, have been well aware of it for a long time.

The point though is as long as the MM works as intended then it will keep the sub 500 solo pugs together and away from the rest of us. Which is good because it will give them a chance to learn something.

As for your assertion that FP may not be for everyone. It is true , which is why QP flourishes and FP languishes (relatively).
That has to change.

[S O L A I S]

MischiefSC, on 01 September 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Not true. They're not "super solos" because they won't ******* TOUCH Solaris - they want a team to carry them. They just don't want to have to do their own part.

The vast majority of the games population *wants* 12 v 12 - they just want to being crap builds and be carried and have teammates keeping them alive while they make stupid choices. They don't want to 1 v 1 some one who isn't worse than them. They don't want to do solo v solo - they want carried and they want game mechanics broken to favor them somehow.

That's the reality of it. They want teams, they just don't want to be expected to contribute.

I think what you say may be true in part for a good deal of folks.

There are others of us though that see Solaris as almost a different sport with the same equipment. Personally I am not a brawler and have very little interest picking out a mech to run face first into another guy with.

CW gives me the chance to snipe/trade/brawl and often it does so all in the same match.