258 replies to this topic

[Kalleballe]

Take off both capacity and dissipation about 20% so the laser vom examples earlier have to wait 2-5 sec or coolshot on their second alpha. This should make mixed AC+laser builds atleast a little more viable.

Heavys cannot poke as fast as lighter mechs so a slight heatcapacity increase with more sinks is imo ok.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Consider a battlemaster-1G, with 20DHS, LFE335, TC1, 3xLPLs and 4xMLs (Yes. FOUR. even one less than what I originally assumed)

That thing has +10% range for MLs, and +10%range for E weapons... and -5% ML heatgen. With Range quirks, and TC1 boost, the Medium laser range can be bumped up to 370m+, and LPLs to 470m+

Vs 475m on cERML and 713m on the cLPLs.....

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

One top of that.... consider the very fast burn duration and super quick cooldown with cockpit level hardpoints, as well as great side profile for torso twisting.

......When taking laser vomit, no one cares about cooldown unless it is like the old 3 LPL Quickdraw or Thunderbolt (which this isn't). The hardpoints also don't matter because you are taking one weapon in the arm, so either you are dropping one ML or you are exposing more to ruin the whole point of those hardpoints.

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

At the end of the day... I'd take that BLR a thousand times over the that MAD-IIC, since it can also brawl if required!!!

Ummmm, wat? The BLR can't brawl. It just dies with those broad shoulders. That's why the only BLR that was ever taken before the MAD-IIC was the BLR-2C (and it also ran 5 LPLs with an XL).

Keep in mind though that the IS are only coming closer because of the damage nerfs NOT the dissipation buffs. The dissipation buffs should actually benefit whichever mech mounts the most external DHS, which are the Clan mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 September 2018 - 07:44 AM.

[Far Reach]

Why must you continue to punish the clans?
Why do you flip-flop on every change you make to this game?
Player numbers are critically low and you focus on micromanaging the few people left playing...
Instead of new maps or better content you continue to obsess over the numbers, while the hardcore playerbase continues to evaporate.
You DO realize this will lead to low MW5 sales, right?

[Sable Dove]

Far Reach, on 09 September 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

[...]
You DO realize this will lead to low MW5 sales, right?

What's really going to lead to low sales of MW5 is the lack of mechlab. The customization is half the fun of the game. Without it, why buy?

[Reno Blade]

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Would you be able to compare some crappy builds to these laser vomits?
Something that is considered bad, or is using too many weapon types (bracket builds) maybe.

Or how about comparing different weight classes together in one graph?

E.g. comparing a Wolfhound with a PHawk (both MPL boating) to a PHawk with under-gunned build (e.g. LL/ML/MG/JJets and sensor skills without operation skills).

I think the biggest problem is not purely focused on the best IS vs best Clan, but to actually look at average builds and bad builds.
Just using "backup lasers" on the Clan might already give a bad Clan build an advantage over a bad IS build.

[Y E O N N E]

MiZia, on 09 September 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

Blr has 20% range on medium laser. in fact fully skilled it can peak out at like 490 meters optimal for ermeds. for std meds its like 370?

He used a BLR-3M in that example, not a BLR-1G, because it shows 8 lasers and not 7. The BLR-3M has zero range quirks, zero heat quirks, and only has a relevant 10% MedLas duration quirk.

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Since your are so fixated on 270m range of MLs on the battlemaster, I decided to test something.

Consider a battlemaster-1G, with 20DHS, LFE335, TC1, 3xLPLs and 4xMLs (Yes. FOUR. even one less than what I originally assumed)

That thing has +10% range for MLs, and +10%range for E weapons... and -5% ML heatgen. With Range quirks, and TC1 boost, the Medium laser range can be bumped up to 370m+, and LPLs to 470m+

I'm fixated on bad data? Okay.

Here's what you have Shown with this new comparison:

1.) That you have funny ideas on how to build a mid-range Battlemaster 1G

2.) That a heavily-quirked 'Mech that still does not have similar range only just barely keeps pace with its Clan counterpart (MedLas with the quirks (20%), skills (15%), and TC1 (3.5%) are 374 meters....compared to the 460 meters the cERML have with just skills)

3.) That the Clan counterpart is still keeping pace despite being built suboptimally (I fixed it for you)

4.) Used quirks to defend a baseline state

...

Wat?

At the end of the day, the BLR-1G, with all of its quirks and all of the heat skills, can only fire 50 damage once every 6.08 seconds once it is heat capped, while the longer-ranged MAD-IIC can fire 63 once every 6.01 seconds under the same conditions.

That is broken.

Quote

And finally in terms of damage output... well take a look for yourself at these comparisons to the MAD-IIC:


The BLR-1G not only keeps up with the MAD-IIC in terms of damage output in the long run, it is able to even over-perform in the first 30 second of engagement.

The first 30 seconds only matter in a push, which is an edge-case. Otherwise it's the back-half of the graph that represents how lasers are played the majority of the time in any given match. They poke over and over, staying up near 100% heat as much as they can, holding coolshots in reserve for pushes and securing kills. That the BLR-1G, with its prodigious quirks and using MedLas instead of the more task-appropriate ER MedLas, is only just keeping pace with the MAD-IIC - while still possessing an 80+ meter range deficit and a 13-point alpha deficit - should alarm the crap out of you on the state of the game for every other 'Mech besides this one exceptional option.

Quote

One top of that.... consider the very fast burn duration and super quick cooldown with cockpit level hardpoints, as well as great side profile for torso twisting.

A.) You are not going to get 50 damage out of the BLR-1G's or 3M's mix of LPL and ML by only using the good torso mounts, you have to also use that craptastic arm mount (and the same holds true for the WHM-6D, which everybody likes to conveniently forget, while the HBR has all of its lasers in high torso positions); the only way to get 50 from the torso with lasers is to mass LL, which requires losing the duration contest, or mass LPL, which requires an XL.

B.) Go do the damage-over-duration math for the MAD-IIC; actually, I'll save you the trouble. In 1 second, the MAD-IIC does 59.13 damage. In 0.9 seconds, it will do a little over 53. While, yes, the BLR will do all 55 in 0.765 seconds, it isn't agile enough for its shape or size to really spread the bulk of that incoming Clan damage, with those drawbacks compounding against your own human limitations. If you are firing when he fires at you, you are going to eat it. You are only going to spread it if you were spreading before the shot occurs. This has been true since forever and is at the heart of why mid-range IS laser vomit assaults are binned in favor of Clan flavors despite so many on-paper advantages that make it look like they might be comparable.

Quote

At the end of the day... I'd take that BLR a thousand times over the that MAD-IIC, since it can also brawl if required!!!

No you wouldn't. You will be out-DPS'd by cMPL at 380 meters, and above it you can't deliver your damage competitively with the MAD-IIC. You are too big, too slow, and too wide to evade the incoming 63 damage, and the small advantage in initial burst does not represent the way you need to be playing that 'Mech. You will also find that 'Mechs that you could kill in two exposures with the MAD-IIC require three with the BLR-1G.

You will smash some inferior teams with it and then you'll underperform against a peer team and your drop commander will tell you to stop wasting an Assault slot on an overweight Black Knight.

Quote

Also, that MAD-IIC is not under-sinked!. the difference between 29DHS compared to 30DHS on the same build is so tiny that it would not be even distinguishable on a graph!

As above, I built it for you.

I also built the Battlemaster 3M comparison you are being so evasive over, and the one that is more realistically usable in the current game.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 09 September 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[kuma8877]

Sable Dove, on 09 September 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

What's really going to lead to low sales of MW5 is the lack of mechlab. The customization is half the fun of the game. Without it, why buy?

There will be customization, but it will be structured differently to better go with a SP game, based more on replay-ability and long term play, versus a PVP only environment like MWO. At least that's the word on the street. MWO mechlab structure lends itself to boredom quickly in a PVE long term playstyle. If I can mount any sized weapon to any type (E/B/M) hardpoint, at the first opportunity on any sized mech... it seems to me, any possible sense of progression would evaporate pretty quickly with MWO's open ended mechlab in MW5.

[The Mysterious Fox]

disappointed with the slow rollout of the mobility changes

[Xx_M01S7R47JU1C35_xX]

Navid A1, on 09 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Yeonne Greene, on 09 September 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

I appreciate you both. But we need to focus on the real issues here, and not about semantics or it weakens all of our arguments and makes PGI more likely to skip over us and the concerns we raise because it looks like petty squabbling.

You both raise good points, but we have bigger whales to harpoon and more pressing concerns with the potential update.

Please stand united and stay on message.

[Y E O N N E]

Brynjarr, on 09 September 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

I appreciate you both. But we need to focus on the real issues here, and not about semantics or it weakens all of our arguments and makes PGI more likely to skip over us and the concerns we raise because it looks like petty squabbling.

You both raise good points, but we have bigger whales to harpoon and more pressing concerns with the potential update.

Please stand united and stay on message.

It's not semantics, it's actually core to what PGI is doing, here.

By giving both IS and Clan DHS the same behavioral traits, PGI do not accomplish their own stated goal of reducing the gap between Clan and IS laser vomit because Clan volleys remain larger while having as good-or-better heat efficiency and DPS. It also means that Clan ballistic boats will run that much colder, because IS versions bring less DHS for the same volley size while already running 10-15 kph slower with a 30-90 meter range deficit.

When Navid presents a graph to demonstrate the impact of the changes to PGI, it does us, the players, zero good if what he's showing PGI is an apples-to-pineapples comparison that embellishes the IS position on damage out while obfuscating the fact that it has a huge deficit in range and that the time window at which the IS version is superior is essentially irrelevant to how that 'Mech gets played.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 09 September 2018 - 10:51 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Gave it some time. Still pissed. Still utterly bewildered by how Chris could reach the conclusions he has reached from these PTSs or his assertions regarding the actual live game. From the heat changes to his misguided beliefs regarding quirks, I can only hope that this is all some sort of gaslight style prank. If it isn't, and he actually imposes what is putforth above, the fun factor -forget balance chassis to chassis, IS to Clan or whatever the **** balance refers to anymore- the actual fun of playing a diverse number of mechs, weapons, and play styles, and thus the game itself, is about to end.

Why are they doing this? How can they think this is a good idea? This meets none of the goals that they have stated are their various goals since before skill tree dropped. I just don't get it.

[Kalleballe]

Ultimatly this affect their own paycheck, if that argument is not enough nothing is.

[GweNTLeR]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 September 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

It also means that Clan ballistic boats will run that much colder, because IS versions bring less DHS for the same volley size while already running 10-15 kph slower with a 30-90 meter range deficit.

Wait wait wait...hold on...are you implying that clan ballistic boats will somehow magically become better than IS? Seriously? A little more dissipation would not change ANYTHING for ballistic boats since most of them are already pretty cold.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

GweNTLeR, on 09 September 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Wait wait wait...hold on...are you implying that clan ballistic boats will somehow magically become better than IS? Seriously? A little more dissipation would not change ANYTHING for ballistic boats since most of them are already pretty cold.

Not sure if this is sarcasm but there isn't really any good ballistic boat that doesn't run hot. Outside of the old penta-AC5 Mauler and Dakkahammer before they increased AC5 heat almost every ballistic boat gets heat capped. The Anni, MKII, and Whale all get heat capped pretty fast and would welcome any dissipation boosts they can get.

[Chados]

Bud Crue, on 09 September 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

Gave it some time. Still pissed. Still utterly bewildered by how Chris could reach the conclusions he has reached from these PTSs or his assertions regarding the actual live game. From the heat changes to his misguided beliefs regarding quirks, I can only hope that this is all some sort of gaslight style prank. If it isn't, and he actually imposes what is putforth above, the fun factor -forget balance chassis to chassis, IS to Clan or whatever the **** balance refers to anymore- the actual fun of playing a diverse number of mechs, weapons, and play styles, and thus the game itself, is about to end.

Why are they doing this? How can they think this is a good idea? This meets none of the goals that they have stated are their various goals since before skill tree dropped. I just don't get it.

LOL, this is exactly what they did with the Artemis nerfs/lock cone nerf/ECM buff, except there was no PTS to be ignored, they just did it and **** all y’all who run a lot of streaks, ATMs, and LRMs. This is basically a “**** all y’all” to the direct-fire warriors, supposedly designed to nerfbat everything but laser vomit and it’s not. It’s just as ***-backwards as the missile nerfs. They nerfed locking missiles into the ground, ignoring the FACT that the player base only complains about the very style of play they buffed through the roof with the velocity increases and Artemis/lock cone nerfs...because now LRMing from the back of the map is the ONLY style of play with guided missiles that ever WORKS in any way. Now, they’re trying to stop the 80-damage Deathstrike by making it run colder, LOL. If that sounds like Bizarro-logic to you, well, join the party, pal, because it doesn’t make a lick of sense to the rest of us either.

Edited by Chados, 09 September 2018 - 01:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GweNTLeR, on 09 September 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Wait wait wait...hold on...are you implying that clan ballistic boats will somehow magically become better than IS? Seriously? A little more dissipation would not change ANYTHING for ballistic boats since most of them are already pretty cold.

And now they are even colder.

Also, the five Clan 'Mechs that can boat ballistics: DWF, KDK-3, MCII-B, HBK-IIC, and NTG, were all better than their IS counterparts prior to agility nerfs (for those that got them) precisely because they are faster and colder for the same size volley.

[GweNTLeR]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 September 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

And now they are even colder.

Also, the five Clan 'Mechs that can boat ballistics: DWF, KDK-3, MCII-B, HBK-IIC, and NTG, were all better than their IS counterparts prior to agility nerfs (for those that got them) precisely because they are faster and colder for the same size volley.

Ah, so that's why those mechs do dominate Solaris and CW(no), I see a direwolf every game I play siege(no).
DWF and NTG is somewhat playable only on AC2's (still glass cannons), KDK-3 is dead, HBK and MCII-B are widely used, but they hardly compete to bushwaker and ANH.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 September 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

Not sure if this is sarcasm but there isn't really any good ballistic boat that doesn't run hot. Outside of the old penta-AC5 Mauler and Dakkahammer before they increased AC5 heat almost every ballistic boat gets heat capped. The Anni, MKII, and Whale all get heat capped pretty fast and would welcome any dissipation boosts they can get.

Surely not(of course it is!), in MWO there is no such chassis as ANH (with penta LB10) or Fafnir(quad) Sleipnir(quad LB10/UAC5) doesn't exist and each time I see penta AC 5 mauler I flee in fear.
I'm not even mentioning HG variants.
Are we playing the same game guys?

Edited by GweNTLeR, 09 September 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GweNTLeR, on 09 September 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

Ah, so that's why those mechs do dominate Solaris and CW(no), I see a direwolf every game I play siege(no).
DWF and NTG is somewhat playable only on AC2's (still glass cannons), KDK-3 is dead, HBK and MCII-B are widely used, but they hardly compete to bushwaker and ANH.

You think any of that has to do with the ballistics and not the armor and agility those 'Mechs have to make them not-trash in every other game mode?

Did you even read what I wrote? (no)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

GweNTLeR, on 09 September 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

Ah, so that's why those mechs do dominate Solaris and CW(no), I see a direwolf every game I play siege(no).
DWF and NTG is somewhat playable only on AC2's (still glass cannons), KDK-3 is dead, HBK and MCII-B are widely used, but they hardly compete to bushwaker and ANH.

Surely not(of course it is!), in MWO there is no such chassis as ANH (with penta LB10) or Fafnir(quad) Sleipnir(quad LB10/UAC5) doesn't exist and each time I see penta AC 5 mauler I flee in fear.
I'm not even mentioning HG variants.
Are we playing the same game guys?

HG isn't dakka so mentioning it would be a waste, those specifically compete with Gauss vomit on the clan side (albeit shorter range). No one cares about 5 LBX10s (how slow is that exactly) just like no one really cared about the 4 LBX10 Kodiak. Those aren't dakka nor are they actually great builds.

I'm not sure what game you are playing either saying the Whale is only useful for UAC2s/AC2s, cuz it still works just fine for UAC10/5 spam just like the MCII-B only with a worse profile. The MCII-B is stronger than the dakka Anni, either you give up too much damage volume (4 AC10s) or you are less heat efficient copy of the other (2 UAC10/2 UAC5). Don't get me wrong, I really love the 4 AC10 Anni, but I like the volume of damage the MCII-B gives me more.



Side note: No one cares about Solaris and FW, the game isn't balanced around either of those modes and never has been.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 September 2018 - 04:02 PM.

[GweNTLeR]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 September 2018 - 03:43 PM, said:

You think any of that has to do with the ballistics and not the armor and agility those 'Mechs have to make them not-trash in every other game mode?
Did you even read what I wrote? (no)

How's that suppsed to be an argument of clan boats better than IS counterparts?
Since 2016 (when the chassis you mentioned were performing fine) we had some mobility nerfs, clan UAC nerf(jam chance duration ghost heat) introduction of IS UACs, ANH amd FAFNIR. Surely that changed alot.