157 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

ive already gone into extreme detail about why its better.

you keep conveniently ignoring how absurd IS PPC quirks are

because if you acknowledge them your entire argument falls apart.

Wrong, it's because your arguments are short-sighted that keeps narrowing the use of CERPPC in the same use as ERPPC, when in reality CERPPC is supposed to be a stand in for roles all of the IS ppc series into one weapon. You keep droning on about that velocity, which sure makes ERPPC easier to land in longer ranges -- but the thing is that, they don't have to, 1500 velocity is perfectly fine in many cases, it's usable even at the long range of ERPPC. That 12.5 to 15 damage for a 6 ton is immensely powerful, and with the current state of Clan tech, no it is not good to give further buffs for the CERPPC.

As for the IS Quirks, that is more Mech balance than Weapon balance, because not every IS mechs have these quirks, not to mention that even if we gave them, the mechs would still be lagging in some way. Which mechs? The Awesome? The Vindicator? The Panther? Warhammer? CERPPC is fairly common and would work better, vs ERPPC on those, and often they either use HPPC. You know why? Because superior damage, and the quirks barely makes ERPPC worth it.

No, just no. It is you that is ignoring our arguments, because it is convenient for you.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

yeah lets just completely ignore the fact that some IS mechs get crazy PPC quirks like +30% velocity, -10% heat generation, and +10% faster cooldown. lets also ignore the fact that three times more IS mechs get PPC quirks than clan mechs. You can literally count the number of viable PPC clan mechs on one hand thats missing fingers.

Yes, for some mechs. Are you really just going to balance this based on the mechs that have quirks? Really?

The quirks IS have are literally the only stuff that's letting it be on par with Clan tech. Supposed that we give that 10% heat generation and 10% velocity, that's 2470 velocity, and 12.15 heat for 10 damage, which is effectively 0.823 damage/heat, again for scale the Clan ERPPC at 0.862 to 1.0344 damage/heat, for 6 tons.

And about that's the 2470 velocity, why is that any merit when you're doing piss poor damage and damage/heat? And 2740 velocity, is ******* overkill, it's only ever useful at a fringe long-range use, the CERPPC with better alpha and lower tonnage is far more useful at an even wider band of range, because it's supposed to be the SNPPC, HPPC, PPC, and ERPPC of Clan, simply relegating this into a question of which does range better is just stupid because it fails to adhere to the point of Clan ERPPC.

Okay, sure, lets apply that to PPC; 9.5 damage/heat is effectively 1.0526 damage/heat, which is even superior than the CERPPC, and that 30% PPC velocity is at 1560, and with that respect 3x IS PPC is superior than 2x CERPPC. But the take away from that is the 2x CERPPC that is 12 tons nearly matched a 3x IS PPC while the ERPPC alone, is sadly terrible.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

after you factor quirks in theres no question the ISERPPC is already every bit as good if not better than the CERPPC. So buffing the ISERPPC without buffing the CERPPC is completely out of the question.

Lol, no. Are you being funny?

All it has under it's belt is a longer range with overkill velocity that only gives you better ability to touch targets from afar and slightly superior CD after quirks, the 3x ERPPC buff hardly even amounts to something that would make ERPPC a viable choice if the heat-buff isn't applied yet, and that is another story.

The Clan ERPPC on the other hand, triumphs at everything else, especially damage and damage/heat. And again, before you go with "muh PPFLD", that 2.5 - 5 splash damage still stacks up. And in just four shots (or 2 volleys) on the CT, that's practically a pair of another PPC shot on the side-torsos.

So basically when your 4x PPC Awesome shot 4 PPCs, the Marauder IIC or Warhawk practically shot 6, and now factor in the completely worse damage/heat of the ERPPC that makes it less sustainable.

Is it sinking in yet?

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

then why would you ever use x2 HPPCs? the x3 ERPPCs get the same PPFLD, shorter cooldown, WAY faster velocity, WAY longer range, no min range, for only 1 ton, 1 crit more and a couple extra points of heat.

congrats youve just made the HPPC useless.

Probably because HPPC does 0.9667 damage/heat, while the ERPPC does 0.86953 damage/heat which gives it (the HPPC) capable of better sustained DPS. Now factor in the fact that it uses less hardpoints, that you can add more DHS.

Are we even playing the same game?

Lol. Sure, okay 11.5 heat seems to be too far, what about 12.5? ERPPC still NEEDS lower heat.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

you dont balance 5 different specialized PPCs by making them more similar to eachother. you balance them by making them uniquely different so each one excels in one specific role. And there should be very little or no overlap when it comes to those roles.

I'm doing no such thing, but considering such problematic heat value for ERPPC, something has to give. 11.5 heat is also rather specific, but what is evident is that ERPPC needs a damn heat buff, it doesn't have to be at 11.5, but a heat buff certainly needs to happen because 3x ERPPC would not help it.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

the ERPPC should be straight up inferior to the HPPC at midrange combat or you balanced it wrong.

Again, it would still be inferior, the ERPPC would still have less sustained DPS than HPPC.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

But evidently youre so fixated on buffing the ERPPC you dont actually seem to care if its balanced internally or externally vs the CERPPC.

I care to have it balanced, the problem with you on the other hand is that you could only look at your perspective, at a narrow view of balance.

And why would it should be even equal to CERPPC? again, as I have told you, the Clan only has the CERPPC for it's energy-ppfld needs, so it's a stand-in for what is essentially C-PPC, C-HPPC, and C-SNPPC too, so it should be balanced by the needs of the Clan as a techbase first.

Not to mention that IS ERPPC, as have been demonstrated again and again, is completely inferior to the CERPPC especially against other PPCs of the same techbase. The IS-ERPPC is so pitiful, you might as well stand closer and shoot with standard PPC, and those are already less favorable compared to bringing HPPCs. If we allow 3x other PPCs, it still wouldn't solve the ERPPC's problem.

Your argument of 3x CERPPC should be because ERPPC = CERPPC falls apart because of these simple facts:

- C-ERPPC =/= IS-ERPPC
- C-ERPPC > IS-ERPPC
- C-ERPPC > most IS PPC series
- 2x C-ERPPC > 3x IS-ERPPC
- 2x C-ERPPC = 3x IS-PPC, 3x IS-SNPPC, 2x IS-HPPC.
- Clan Techbase > IS Techbase

This entire debacle isn't because "I don't care about balance", rather its you who is incapable of looking at balance at a broad perspective, end up with wrong conclusions, and too god damn thick to understand.

Here we are, giving you our points and you're just slapping it back on our face with "muh PPFLD" and ****, with "muh velocity" and ****, equating CERPPC with ERPPC when it's not supposed to be. You keep saying how IS-ERPPC is better than C-ERPPC, yet numbers say otherwise, and I'm the one ignoring your arguments? Don't make me laugh.

Mystere, on 18 September 2018 - 02:31 AM, said:

If after this statement of yours you still do not get why changes to the CERPPC need to track changes to the IS PPC weapons, there really isn't much more to say.

Because the changes to the CERPPC doesn't need 3x GH limit, we have pointed out a lot of things why. If you want your 3x CERPPC, nerf the damage and adjust the heat.

Mystere, on 18 September 2018 - 02:31 AM, said:

What was my OP again?

Mystere, on 08 September 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

As per the title.

What's a 30-point alpha these days anyway? <shrugs>

2x CERPPC already does 30-point alpha.

*shrugs*

If you still don't get that, I can't help you.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 September 2018 - 04:41 AM.

[Abaddun]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

ive already gone into extreme detail about why its better.

you keep conveniently ignoring how absurd IS PPC quirks are

because if you acknowledge them your entire argument falls apart.

yeah lets just completely ignore the fact that some IS mechs get crazy PPC quirks like +30% velocity, -10% heat generation, and +10% faster cooldown. lets also ignore the fact that three times more IS mechs get PPC quirks than clan mechs. You can literally count the number of viable PPC clan mechs on one hand thats missing fingers.

after you factor quirks in theres no question the ISERPPC is already every bit as good if not better than the CERPPC. So buffing the ISERPPC without buffing the CERPPC is completely out of the question

And you keep conveniently ignoring how bad the mechs that have PPC quirks are, I'm going to use the example you have given, the Mauler 1P- 30% velocity boost, -10% CD and -10% heat. On paper, those are some Steller quirks, so the mech, by your reasoning, must be a very popular PPC boat. However, in this example I haven't disclosed that the energy mounts are low and in the arms, the mech has virtually non existent defensive quirks with barn door hit boxes, a max engine cap of 325 and gimped IS tech. It is little wonder then, that the Warhawk Prime is a FAR more popular PPC boat because whilst the quirks might be worse, the mech as a whole is better. I must disclose that the Mauler 1P has a large quantity of Ballistic and missile hardpoints in the STs, but generally speaking PPC builds are relegated to using that space for heatsinks.

And to say IS ERPPC boats are "viable" is just laughable. Even with a ghost heat of 3, ISPPCS are just too hot and too heavy to run more than 2 with supporting heatsinks. even if you made them cooler you would have to drop the heat to 10 to make them on par with the Heat to damage efficiency of CERPPCs, which forces PPCs to be made either redundant or ice cold.

I've already made my point on why 3 CERPPCs are a bad idea. You just wilfully ignore my arguments or try and debunk them with flawed reasoning.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 18 September 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

when in reality CERPPC is supposed to be a stand in for roles all of the IS ppc series into one weapon.

well it completely fails at being a standin for all those different roles. Because it lacks the PPFLD damage of HPPC. it lacks the velocity of ERPPC. and it lacks the heat efficiency of PPCs.

the CERPPC is already at best equal if not worse than the ERPPC after quirks. And you want to make that disparity even bigger. Yeah no thanks.

If CERPPC cant have x3 than ISERPPC doesnt need x3 either.

The6thMessenger, on 18 September 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

2x CERPPC already does 30-point alpha.

no it does 20 point PPFLD and 5-10 garbage splash damage.

that is not at all the same thing as 30 PPFLD. not even close in fact.

you continue to misrepresent splash damage as being way better than it actually is.

splash damage is at best 1/3rd as good as PPFLD.

Abaddun, on 18 September 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

And you keep conveniently ignoring how bad the mechs that have PPC quirks are

no lol.

in fact if you actually read my posts I said ISDHS, IS engines, and IS FF/ES all need to be buffed. I directly addressed the issue of IS mechs being inferior.

the tech bases need to be balanced at the fundamental level. rather than punishing CERPPC because clan DHS are better than IS DHS. that makes no sense. thats not how you balance a game.

Abaddun, on 18 September 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

I've already made my point on why 3 CERPPCs are a bad idea. You just wilfully ignore my arguments or try and debunk them with flawed reasoning.

The reasoning isnt flawed at all lmao.

You want to punish CERPPCs because CDHS are superior to ISDHS. You dont punish weapons because other equipment is unbalanced. Thats dumb and a poor, lopsided way to balance a game. Instead you fix the equipment that's unbalanced.

I want to buff ISDHS so theyre equal to CDHS (as well as IS engines and IS FF/ES). And then make the CERPPC and ISERPPC equal. I want to get rid of PGI's unfettered need to penalize weapons illogically due to having unequal techbases.

There is nothing flawed about that. In fact its the only logical way to balance the game.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2018 - 02:41 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

PPCs in general are at a point in the game where they are too much work and too little reward, without them being on a mech extremely quirked for them.
most other weapons are easier to use and get you more, or cost you less effort, or tonnage or X.

they really should put some work into them.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 18 September 2018 - 07:01 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

I watched a guy recently with jumpjets and a single cerppc put some mad work in to take down the last two mechs on the field (a badly damaged heavy and a near fresh assault) and yeah all it left me thinking was, "that guy wasn't getting well enough rewarded for all his hard work" as it took him about 5 minutes to do, as expertly done as it was, 15 damage at a time with a not heat stable gun even on its own without jumping, is still 15 damage at a time.

Just a side anecdote really but even if the limit was 3 clan ppcs the heat without GH is insane, anything big enough to wield the 30 heat sinks you would need to use such a build efficiently can easily be matched in output by other combinations, except maybe at that max range of cerppc. So I just don't see the fear there, and I would also still feel for that dude putting in all that hard work with a gun that doesn't do half as much work as it should. :|

[FupDup]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 September 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

I watched a guy recently with jumpjets and a single cerppc put some mad work in to take down the last two mechs on the field (a badly damaged heavy and a near fresh assault) and yeah all it left me thinking was, "that guy wasn't getting well enough rewarded for all his hard work" as it took him about 5 minutes to do, as expertly done as it was, 15 damage at a time with a not heat stable gun even on its own without jumping, is still 15 damage at a time.

Just a side anecdote really but even if the limit was 3 clan ppcs the heat without GH is insane, anything big enough to wield the 30 heat sinks you would need to use such a build efficiently can easily be matched in output by other combinations, except maybe at that max range of cerppc. So I just don't see the fear there, and I would also still feel for that dude putting in all that hard work with a gun that doesn't do half as much work as it should. :|

Look at it this way: Bumping up the Spooky Heat cap wouldn't help that particular guy anyways. Reverting the most recent cooldown nerf and nudging the heat down by a wee bit, however, would.

[Shifty McSwift]

FupDup, on 18 September 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

Look at it this way: Bumping up the Spooky Heat cap wouldn't help that particular guy anyways. Reverting the most recent cooldown nerf and nudging the heat down by a wee bit, however, would.

Yeah I did say that

[Mystere]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 September 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

Just a side anecdote really but even if the limit was 3 clan ppcs the heat without GH is insane, anything big enough to wield the 30 heat sinks you would need to use such a build efficiently can easily be matched in output by other combinations, except maybe at that max range of cerppc. So I just don't see the fear there, and I would also still feel for that dude putting in all that hard work with a gun that doesn't do half as much work as it should. :|

And neither do I. It looks like the fear -- assuming it is even real -- is coming from something else but is intentionally being hidden behind a whole lot of "reasons".

Come on, where is the fear of this dreadfully dangerous 3xCERPPC mega monster coming from? Spit it out.

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 18 September 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

Come on, where is the fear of this dreadfully dangerous 3xCERPPC mega monster coming from? Spit it out.

Yeah... it doesnt make any sense. x3 CERPPC would be perfectly fine.

Splash damage is really NOT that good. Theres NO rational reason to be so afraid of it.

Especially when the CERPPC is way worse than the ISERPPC in literally every other regard (worse cooldown, worse heat, worse velocity, worse crit health, worse quirks, worse tonnage/crits if you have to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the ISERPPC, etc...).

The CERPPC is only ever better than the ISERPPC when the splash damage actually kills a mech. Which almost NEVER happens. It happens maybe like 10% of the time. If that. The other 90% of the time the ISERPPC is superior at killing mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2018 - 09:55 AM.

[Reno Blade]

First of all, I think the GH and basic stats for PPCs are fine in general, but lasers in particular are too good (especially because they boat too well).

There needs to be enough reason for each weapon to be used on a build.
You should be able to choose between bunch of lasers / pulse / or PPCs without choosing bad vs good.

In the past, PPCs were very good and easy and they synced with Gauss for a quite cold combo.
They could be snip-fired with great precision because of the speed and high mech agility.
Now we got lower agility for most heavies/assaults, we got Gauss+PPC GH and we got slower PPCs.


So the question we need to consider: are PPCs worth in a build over other (energy/ballistic) weapons (1 or 2 or more) ?
Looking at the current "meta", it seems that the laser boating in particular, but also 2-caliber ballistic boating is prefered over the slow projectile/cooldown builds used by PPCs (and also AC20s).
On the other hand, Gauss is still very viable (mostly because it works perfect together with lasers and it's much faster) and even UAC10s are much better (high dps compared to PPCs and even over the old AC10s).

What we need to change?
- PPC GH for more boating? - no, boating should never be buffed!
- PPC velocity for easier snap-shots again (after years of PPC meta) ? - no, the difficulty is perfect right now (maybe skill points can be increased)
- PPC heat reduction? - maybe. it would buff light/med mechs using PPCs, would increase the usability with other weapons and even reduce the GH penalty (giving some risk-reward choice back).


In general, i would like a better balanced dmg/ton rating for most weapons, especially energy and reduce the boating potency (by earlier GH limits).
So i would make the laser class more difficult (by increasing beam), give pulse lasers a better niche (by making them fast dps weapons) and then the PPCs (and other slow and strong weapons are in a much better place).



previous post including example stats (huge rebalance of all values) here:
https://mwomercs.com...nd-improvments/
and
https://mwomercs.com...nt-suggestions/

Energy balance decisions in short:
Std or ER Laser should be above 1.0 second duration.
Pulse Lasers should be between 0.5 and 0.8 for both factions.

Where the average difference between the classes and types are:
micro->small->med->large should be 0.2s apart
STD->ER->Heavy should be 0.2 apart
PULSE should be about half duration of STD (and also half dmg, half heat and 1/3 cd)

Aiming for a 1.0 DPS (incl. duration) per ton of the std medium laser would make the starting point
suggested values:
ML = 5dmg, 3.33heat, 3.8s cd, 1.2s duration = 1.0 dps and 1.5dph and 1.0dps/ton
ERML = 5dmg, 4.5heat, 4s cd, 1.4s duration = 0.9259 dps and 1.11dph and 0.9259dps/ton
CERML = 6dmg, 5.0heat, 4.6s cd, 1.6s duration = 0.9677dps and 1.20
dph and 0.9677dps/ton
CHML = 10dmg, 8.0heat, 6.0s cd, 1.8s duration = 1.28 dps and 1.25dph and 1.28dps/ton
MPL = 2.8dmg, 1.6heat, 1.0s cd, 0.6s duration = 1.75 dps and 1.75dph and 0.875dps/ton
CMPL = 3.0dmg, 1.7heat, 1.1s cd, 0.7s duration = 1.67 dps and 1.76dph and 0.833dps/ton
This would mean that CERML being better at dps and dph than IS ERML, but less efficient than the IS STD ML.

Suggested GH Limit changes aiming for about 30-40 dmg:
BOTH limits for IS AND CLAN
Large (STD/ER/Pulse) max = 3
Large Heavy max = 2
Medium (all) max = 6
Small (all) max = 10
Micro (all) no max, no sharing
(PPCs unchanged)

[FupDup]

1.4 duration on the IS ERML? 1.8 second duration for Clan HML? You're out of your mind bruh.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

well it completely fails at being a standin for all those different roles. Because it lacks the PPFLD damage of HPPC. it lacks the velocity of ERPPC. and it lacks the heat efficiency of PPCs.

Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. All it needs to do is to be a stand-in for all of those because Clan doesn't have any other PPCs, the hell do you want? A single PPC that is good at everything? Now i know you're not about balance.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

the CERPPC is already at best equal if not worse than the ERPPC after quirks. And you want to make that disparity even bigger. Yeah no thanks.

Again, i have shown you that IS-ERPPC isn't even equal, all it has is better ability to touch enemies afar, but it lacks quite a lot at everything else such as damage/heat.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

If CERPPC cant have x3 than ISERPPC doesnt need x3 either.

Well, not really. ERPPC needs something else such as heat-buff. That being said, 3x ERPPC is nice to have vs HPPCs, and again, for the eleventy-billionth time CERPPC =/= ERPPC, get that to your head. Whether ERPPC gets 3x GH, the CERPPC is irrelevant to it.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

no it does 20 point PPFLD and 5-10 garbage splash damage.

that is not at all the same thing as 30 PPFLD. not even close in fact.

you continue to misrepresent splash damage as being way better than it actually is.

splash damage is at best 1/3rd as good as PPFLD.

No, i don't. It is however apparent that CERPPC is good in more ways than one, and what it lacks such as heat sustainability, is adequately covered by the already superior techbase.

Also splash damage whether it's damage that you dismiss, still counts for something, and it still piles up. With 2x CERPPC, two volleys literally mean extra PPC hits on the sides.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Yeah... it doesnt make any sense. x3 CERPPC would be perfectly fine.

Splash damage is really NOT that good. Theres NO rational reason to be so afraid of it.

Splash Damage on it's own isn't, Clan techbase as a whole is.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Especially when the CERPPC is way worse than the ISERPPC in literally every other regard (worse cooldown, worse heat, worse velocity, worse crit health, worse quirks, worse tonnage/crits if you have to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the ISERPPC, etc...).

Again, no. CERPPC is a stand-in for the rest of IS PPC series, you can't just equate it to ERPPC. And ERPPC, as we have been pointing out is in fact even worse, all it has is better ability to touch people at distance, the CERPPC is still more efficient with damage, and 1500 is kind of adequate.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

The CERPPC is only ever better than the ISERPPC when the splash damage actually kills a mech. Which almost NEVER happens. It happens maybe like 10% of the time. If that. The other 90% of the time the ISERPPC is superior at killing mechs.

Splash damage may not kill a mech, but it wears it down anyways, and that was the point.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 September 2018 - 12:27 PM.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 18 September 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Again, no. CERPPC is a stand-in for the rest of IS PPC series, you can't just equate it to ERPPC.

sure you can, because its most comparable to the ISERPPC in terms of PPFLD, heat, range, etc...

CERPPC is by far the most similar to the ISERPPC. it even has the same name.

Clans simply dont have an equivalent to the PPC, LPPC, SNPPC, or HPPC.

the CERPPC is NOT a combination of all IS PPCs like you keep claiming it is. It doesnt share any of the other traits that other IS PPCs have.

It lacks the PPFLD of the HPPC, it lacks the lower heat and shorter cooldown of the PPC and SNPPC, and it has basically nothing in common with the LPPC.

So how you can you even say that the CERPPC is a combination of all ISPPCs? Thats absolutely false in every way. you sound like a crazy person making !@#$ up.

The6thMessenger, on 18 September 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

No, i don't. It is however apparent that CERPPC is good in more ways than one, and what it lacks such as heat sustainability, is adequately covered by the already superior techbase.

And once again. You dont penalize weapons because the tech base is better.

Instead you equalize the tech bases. Then you equalize the weapons.

ISDHS, ISXL engines, and ISFF/ES all need to be equalized to the clan versions. Then theres no need to absurdly penalize weapons like the CERPPC because of fundamental tech base imbalances.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2018 - 02:53 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Remove ghost heat from IS PPCs

[Mystere]

LordBraxton, on 18 September 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

Remove ghost heat from IS PPCs

I wouldn't go that far.

[CtrlAltWheee]

Mystere, on 08 September 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

Why not?

Also, I think all PPCs should have more side effects on target:

• targeting loss
  
• heat spike
  
• HUD disruption

I think this is the most interesting way to do it. And it fits lore.

[Stonefalcon]

Tarl Cabot, on 08 September 2018 - 03:54 PM, said:

Remove the minimum range no damage BS, scale down the damage, even if it had an initial drop in that curve.

It used to. I remember using a 6 PPC Awesome to kill a dragon that was face hugging me. He then went on a tirade on the forums about being killed by a weapon that should do 0 damage till 90m. He was probably salty cause it was just after the dragon bowling nerf.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

sure you can, because its most comparable to the ISERPPC in terms of PPFLD, heat, range, etc...

CERPPC is by far the most similar to the ISERPPC. it even has the same name.

Yes you can, but we shouldn't, mainly because the two techbases have different uses.

As for the name, it's just a name. Else we'd classify North Korea as a democracy just because it has "Democratic" in it's official name.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Clans simply dont have an equivalent to the PPC, LPPC, SNPPC, or HPPC.

So does ERPPC, because the CERPPC is supposed to be a stand-in for all of those, it's not supposed to be equal but just a damn jack of all trades. Of course it's not going to beat a specialist by being a generalist.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

the CERPPC is NOT a combination of all IS PPCs like you keep claiming it is. It doesnt share any of the other traits that other IS PPCs have.

Wrong, I never said that the CERPPC is a combination of the IS PPC series, rather it fills in for the role of all those PPCs in one. How ******* stupid could you possibly get?

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

It lacks the PPFLD of the HPPC, it lacks the lower heat and shorter cooldown of the PPC and SNPPC, and it has basically nothing in common with the LPPC.

Thats because you only look at those narrowly. Now i ask you, when you need the the SNPPC of clan where you use your PPC short-ranged? What about the heavy damage of the HPPC? the light-weight-ness of LPPC?

Nada. There is only CERPPC, and so it must be borderline useful for the roles of those other PPCs on the other side.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

So how you can you even say that the CERPPC is a combination of all ISPPCs? Thats absolutely false in every way. you sound like a crazy person making !@#$ up.

Because i didn't, you're strawmanning me.

My argument was, it's supposed to FILL in for the roles of those other PPCs. If you're simply balancing by a single role it does, then ultimately you also buff the other roles it also fulfill.

For HPPC, whether you like Splash damage or not, it's still racking up 45 damage per shot at 18 tons, while the HPPC limited at 20 tons would be doing 30, and again, that splash damage piles up overtime. As valuable as 15 PPFLD is, the Clan ERPPC is still doing 15 total damage, and considering the difference in tonnage it's only fitting to have different qualities of damage.

Now unlike the ERPPC that would have been usable though terrible at a close range with completely lower damage/heat, the equivalent SNPPC doing 10 damage with 10 heat, effectively 1 damage/heat, the Clan ERPPC on the other hand with 12.5 to 15 damage does between 0.862 to 1.0344 damage/heat, that means you only need to fix your aim to do even better damage/heat versus the SNPPC, now the ERPPC on the other hand does 10 damage for 13.5 heat, or 0.74 damage/heat.

So do the 3x CERPPC, not only we get a good long-range setup, we also get an okay close-range setup. I mean sure, it's still pretty hot for brawls though DHS and fire-discipline can mitigate if not spectacularly perform, but it would have been far more efficient at close range than the IS ERPPC.

Sure, you might as well get an SNPPC for close-range at that point, but the thing is that you have the usability of both SNPPC and ERPPC for the CERPPC, while the IS ERPPC is only limited to a single role. When a Clanner brings a CERPPC, it's both an SNPPC and an ERPPC for both close range and long range, but if an IS bought an ERPPC it's just an ERPPC for long range (technically it can be used close-range but it's abyssmal compared to CERPPC that is actually okay if not stellar), or an SNPPC is just an SNPPC for close-range.

As for the LPPC -- the point of LPPC is to give PPC-level firepower for lighter chassis. We both know that Clan lights barely struggle to fit heavier PPCs while the IS is having problems. I mean you need 9 tons to have 15 damage out of 3 LPPC, but Clans need only 6 to have 15 damage at a single CERPPC, and they even have more pod-space to boot. And not only it's just 2 crit-slots that lets it function like an SNPPC-LPPC on the CT, it's also acting like an ERPPC and an SNPPC with it's usefulness at all ranges, at the same time it is an LPPC because it can be used by low-ton mechs effectively, while also doing borderline HPPC with it's total damage.

Is that really ******* hard to understand? That is exactly how CERPPC does the role of the entire series of IS PPCs at the same time, hell, even before we even had the other PPCs for IS! Quite simply, compared to the IS, you bring a decent piece of each of IS PPC types with a single CERPPC, that is why we can't simply balance them 1:1 with ERPPC alone.

This is were your narrow mindedness and insistence to only compare by stats doesn't get you, and because you can't get to this level of understanding is why we're having problems discussing with you.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

And once again. You dont penalize weapons because the tech base is better.

Instead you equalize the tech bases. Then you equalize the weapons.

Funny, coming from the one trying to equalize the weapons first, before the techbases.

And unfortunately, we have to nerf CERPPC at some way before we equalize it with the other techbase weapon, mainly because if we simply equalize them at narrow values such as GH limits with little nuance, then we disbalance the techbase, in which you are advocating.

Unless we first balance by tech, then the only way we could balance things is by penalizing one over performer. That being said, Clan ERPPC doing up to 15 damage/shot, that's still pretty powerful and should be treated differently because of it.

Why shouldn't we penalize weapons just because the tech-base is better? If we didn't do that then we couldn't balance the tech-bases, the point of asymmetrical balance is that it is balanced some other way and that means, though Clan Lasers have higher damage/shot, they have longer duration if not lower damage/tick -- they are still penalized at some way, and therefore we achieved a semblance of balance. Could you imagine if CLPL doing 12 damage still does 0.67s of beam time? What if CERLL does 1.09s of beam-time to match IS-ERLL? I mean, not because a techbase is better then we shouldn't penalize weapons right? *sarcasm

Your idea of not penalizing better techbase is what would make the techbase OP, and that is what makes 3x CERPPC ultimately OP. Tell you what, give ISPPC 4 PPCs at once, while CERPPC only does 3.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

ISDHS, ISXL engines, and ISFF/ES all need to be equalized to the clan versions. Then theres no need to absurdly penalize weapons like the CERPPC because of fundamental tech base imbalances.

Then do that first. Like i said, reduce Clan ERPPC damage, then we'll talk about that 3x CERPPC.

And to add with your "muh quirks", You are buffing the CERPPC on the basis that SOME quirked IS mechs are doing it better, regardless of other mechs that are doing it worse, your argument is just as untenable as nerfing MG for the rest of the clan just because Piranha is performing well.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 September 2018 - 03:14 AM.