157 replies to this topic

[UnKnownPlayer]

1. - cLRMs have no minimum range, that doesnt mean they are supposed to be used at a shorter range than ATMs. Came for cERPPC and ISERPPC.

2. cERPPS were originally balanced with ghost heat because of poptarting clan mechs. You want 3 ghost heat limit back? Make it interfere with JJs or something because it's that no burn long range damage coupled with a target which is exposed for less time than corner poking / hill humping which was the original problem.

3. Some of you guys have clearly not seen some of the damage number put up by clan try hards in CW where they will rack up 1500dmg in a single summoner with 2 cERPPCs.

4. Would Gauss still go 2 with 3 cERPPCs? That would be coming close to a single volley taking a torso off many IS heavies in 1 go at long range.

At present game balance is for all game modes, the implications go far beyond quickplay brawling.

[El Bandito]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 September 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't like this argumentation. Following the reasoning, i could say that:

SRM without artemis are better better then with artemis, because you don't always hit the component you want and splash helps.

Or

Firing LBX at distance is better then AC, because you don't always hit the component you want and splash helps.

Are you even being serious? SRM with or without Artemis deals the same total damage. Regular AC10 and LBX10 deals the same total damage. CERPPC with splash however, deals more damage than IS ERPPC. Not the same thing cause CERPPC splash damage is bonus.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

Because remember theres damage transference. Which allows high PPFLD to do splash damage of a sort anyway. So if you miss the CT, and destroy their side torso, half of the excess damage will transfer to the CT. Because damage transference exists anyway its another reason splash damage isnt all that great.

Sorry but im still not convinced that splash damage is the boogeyman you make it out to be. Its nowhere near good enough to prevent CERPPC from being x3 ghost heat limit.

But im glad weve identified weak ISDHS and min range on PPCs as the real problems.

I already wrote multiple times that it will be cold day in hell before PGI makes comprehensive tech balancing, which means yes, Clan tech will always give a hand to CERPPC's effectiveness, which means no, it cannot have GH increase.

Mystere, on 10 September 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

So who here prefer weapons with splash damage over PPFLD? Anyone?

Anyone other than LRM lovers, of course.

Not when the splash is bonus on top of the 10 PPFLD. Or maybe you wanna go back to lore damage value of 15 PPFLD for CERPPC? Now would be even sillier than everything I said.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2018 - 08:26 AM.

[Khobai]

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 September 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

cLRMs have no minimum range, that doesnt mean they are supposed to be used at a shorter range than ATMs. Came for cERPPC and ISERPPC.

CLRMS do have a min range in point of fact. its just exponential damage dropoff instead of a zero damage deadzone. but theyre still effectively useless at close range.

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 September 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

cERPPS were originally balanced with ghost heat because of poptarting clan mechs

they were ghost heated because of gauss. but they can no longer be used in combination with gauss. so thats a non-issue.

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 September 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

3. Some of you guys have clearly not seen some of the damage number put up by clan try hards in CW where they will rack up 1500dmg in a single summoner with 2 cERPPCs.

I can rack up 3000dmg in CW with LRMs. im not really seeing your point. someone doing 1500dmg with CERPPCs is hardly a cause for concern.

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 September 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

Would Gauss still go 2 with 3 cERPPCs? That would be coming close to a single volley taking a torso off many IS heavies in 1 go at long range.

You cant fire 2 gauss with 3 ERPPCs without ghost heat.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 08:29 AM.

[Abaddun]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

nope. ERPPC does the same PPFLD as CERPPC for less heat. so its more heat efficient at doing PPFLD.

also the splash damage DOES disappear. if you hit an arm or a leg or a head for example you dont do 5 splash damage. you only do 2.5 splash damage. splash damage is highly unreliable in that sense.

paying extra heat for trashy splash damage is undesirable most of the time. especially when you have to deal with worse velocity, a slower rate of fire, and worse everything else too.



you do have to take a targeting computer if you want the same velocity

without a targeting computer the CERPPC is straight up worse at long range compared to the ERPPC

if you want the CERPPC to have the same performance as the ERPPC, you have to take a targeting computer, and it actually ends up weighing more than the ERPPC.



1) but the fact remains that IS gets about 3 times more mechs with PPC quirks. and most of those mechs get better PPC quirks than clan mechs.

2) the primary reason the warhawk is good at using CERPPCs is CDHS. It has nothing to do with its quirks or CERPPC being better than ERPPC (because its not). It has to do with CDHS being vastly superior to ISDHS.



exactly its trash damage. people dont seem to understand how splash damage works. 90% of the time splash damage isnt helping you kill the mech any faster. Maybe 10% of the time it matters...

its the PPFLD that kills mechs. not the splash damage.



And once again the issue is ISDHS sucking.

The CERPPC should not be punished because ISDHS are bad.

instead ISDHS should not be bad and the CERPPC should not be punished.

1. By the same logic I should just bin all of my LBX-AC mechs and SRM mechs, because the way you are putting it, splash damage is useless.

2. With my extremely limited testing, I have noticed that in cases with only 1 adjacent slot some of the splash damage bounces back to the area hit. Now I must reiterate this is due to limited testing of shooting people in the face with twin CERPPC (and being shot by twin CERPPC in the face) I'll happily do a few experiments to get a definete answer, so for the time being, lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are right, I'll get back to you with my results.

3. I reiterate CERPPC has a longer CD and lower velocity for a lighter weight, small crit slot and better heat efficiency. Meaningful tradeoffs.

4. It's effectiveness at long range is only a matter of quality of life. It's not so slow that a mech larger than a light has a reasonable chance of dodging at the optimal range.YOU DO NOT NEED A TARGETING COMPUTER. It's like saying I need a TC to use the AC5 at 800 metres.

5. Also lighter engine, lighter PPCs, smaller weight saving materials, oh t's almost as if Clan mechs have a natural advantage over IS mechs with regards to the equipment they can take, necessitating artificial modifiers on most IS mechs to allow them to even remotely compete. So what happens when we introduce a Clan mech that has relevant CERPPC quirks, like say BAP A? 90 ton jumping ECM 20% bonus ERPPC velocity.

[Armored Yokai]

Awesomes should be allowed to have 4 PPC with no ghost heat penalty
3ERPPC
3HPPC
6LPPC
4SnubPPC

[B L O O D W I T C H]

El Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

Are you even being serious? SRM with or without Artemis deals the same total damage. Regular AC10 and LBX10 deals the same total damage. CERPPC with splash however, deals more damage than IS ERPPC. Not the same thing cause CERPPC damage is free bonus.

Yes, i am serious and you purposely ignore the notion about the usefullness of splashed damage.
Oh, and i wouldn't call it "free bonus" C-er-ppc is 15 points pinpoint. the 2,5+2,5 splash is a nerf, on top of having worse stats then the IS er-ppc. Sure it's lighter and smaller so some compensation is needed.

[Khobai]

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

1. By the same logic I should just bin all of my LBX-AC mechs and SRM mechs, because the way you are putting it, splash damage is useless.

Its not the same logic though. Because LBX and SRMs are low heat. CERPPC is not. Not at all the same thing bro.

spread damage is perfectly fine when the heat generated is low. CERPPC is one of the hottest weapons in the game though.

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

3. I reiterate CERPPC has a longer CD and lower velocity for a lighter weight, small crit slot and better heat efficiency. Meaningful tradeoffs.

If you have to take a targeting computer to gain back that velocity its no longer lighter weight or less crits.

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

It's effectiveness at long range is only a matter of quality of life

no its effectiveness at long range is the entire point of the weapon. its an C>>>ER<<<PPC. Its not a CPPC or a CSNPPC. Its ER ER ER.

the fact you have to take a targeting computer for it to be effective at long range is a joke.

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

Also lighter engine, lighter PPCs, smaller weight saving materials

and punishing clan weapons because other clan equipment is unbalanced makes sense how? thats just poor balancing all around.

CDHS should not be better than ISDHS

CXL should not be better than ISXL

CFF/ES should not be better than ISFF/ISES

and clan weapons should not suffer because PGI cant balance the fundamental tech bases

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 08:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

and punishing clan weapons because other clan equipment is unbalanced makes sense how? thats just poor balancing all around.

So is buffing a weapon without nerfing the things that allow it to be already good....

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

and punishing clan weapons because other clan equipment is unbalanced makes sense how? thats just poor balancing all around.

CDHS should not be better than ISDHS

CXL should not be better than ISXL

CFF/ES should not be better than ISFF/ISES

Oh no no no no.

It's called balancing not equalizing!
You gain something in one field and lose something in another.
You want to have different pros and cons.
You do not want to level the field and make everything the same.

Clan DHS are smaller because their weapons run hotter. That is balanced towards IS DHS are bigger but their weapons run cooler.
You just can't nit pick one factor and isolate it from the rest.

[UnKnownPlayer]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

CLRMS do have a min range in point of fact. its just exponential damage dropoff instead of a zero damage deadzone. but theyre still effectively useless at close range.

Yes, my point exactly, thanks.

Quote

they were ghost heated because of gauss. but they can no longer be used in combination with gauss. so thats a non-issue.

Yeah possible you are right and I am wrong, I stand corrected, I still fell like the poptart meta would come back with a vengeance though.

Quote

I can rack up 3000dmg in CW with LRMs. im not really seeing your point. someone doing 1500dmg with CERPPCs is hardly a cause for concern.

It was in response to someone claiming they are too low DPS to do any real damage with 2, not a comment on damage numbers in general, also the CW poptarters mainly hit your torso and not everything like LRMs do. So 3000dmg with LRMs isnt much of a concern with that logic.

Quote

You cant fire 2 gauss with 3 ERPPCs without ghost heat.

No but you can fire them sequentially so 3 CERPPCs followed by 2 gauss (charge up whilst PPCs fly so with slower PPCs and faster Gauss they stand a good chance of hitting the same panel.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 September 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

No but you can fire them sequentially so 3 CERPPCs followed by 2 gauss (charge up whilst PPCs fly so with slower PPCs and faster Gauss they stand a good chance of hitting the same panel.

I've seen a certain someone making that work on therma no less. in a Scorch with 2ppcs and 2gauss. He had really good firing discipline.

Now, the question is, do we actually need a +1 cap on ghostheat or do we just need a stats adjustment.
I can see PPCs work with just a little more velocity or reduced heat instead of messing with the whole ghostheat + gauss issue.

[Mystere]

Armored Yokai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

Awesomes should be allowed to have 4 PPC with no ghost heat penalty
3ERPPC
3HPPC
6LPPC
4SnubPPC

Continue. Continue!

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 September 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

So is buffing a weapon without nerfing the things that allow it to be already good....

Are you seriously saying that the CERPPC is already good"?

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 09:38 AM.

[Mystere]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 10 September 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

Now, the question is, do we actually need a +1 cap on ghostheat or do we just need a stats adjustment.
I can see PPCs work with just a little more velocity or reduced heat instead of messing with the whole ghostheat + gauss issue.

Frankly, other than a GH change, I have very little interest in mere stat adjustments (i.e. heat, damage, velocity, cooldown). I'd rather have additional side-effects on the enemy. That will make the weapon type even more unique.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 10 September 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

Are you seriously saying that the CERPPC is already good"?

It's not that bad to warrant an increase in ghost heat, it really just needs a decrease in heat as the 4 ERPPC Warhawk proved.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 September 2018 - 10:04 AM.

[Abaddun]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Its not the same logic though. Because LBX and SRMs are low heat. CERPPC is not. Not at all the same thing bro.

spread damage is perfectly fine when the heat generated is low. CERPPC is one of the hottest weapons in the game though.

That makes no sense. Why does spread as a mechanic suddenly become fine in your eyes on low heat weapons? What tangible difference does it make if the weapons have low heat, especially if I'm running enough heat sinks to remain relatively heat neutral whilst firing one or more PPCs continuously, aside from low heat being a generally preferable stat to have on all weapons.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you have to take a targeting computer to gain back that velocity its no longer lighter weight or less crits.



no its effectiveness at long range is the entire point of the weapon. its an C>>>ER<<<PPC. Its not a CPPC or a CSNPPC. Its ER ER ER.

the fact you have to take a targeting computer for it to be effective at long range is a joke.

Oh my god I might as well be speaking ancient Babylonian. There is no hard cap on the range, a high velocity on a weapon only makes it so you don't have to lead a target as much, with enough practice, you can theoretically land CERPPCs consistently with no velocity buff just as well as if you had the ISERPPC. It's just a quality of life Stat.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

and punishing clan weapons because other clan equipment is unbalanced makes sense how? thats just poor balancing all around.

CDHS should not be better than ISDHS

CXL should not be better than ISXL

CFF/ES should not be better than ISFF/ISES

and clan weapons should not suffer because PGI cant balance the fundamental tech bases

And until the tech basis are balanced IS are going to keep getting overquirked mechs, which was my final point. But when you introduced overquirked Clan mechs the balance just swings right back around which is exactly what we are seeing with the Warhawk Prime.

Edited by Abaddun, 10 September 2018 - 10:31 AM.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 September 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

So is buffing a weapon without nerfing the things that allow it to be already good....

which is exactly what I said needed to happen in my posts. but thanks for the recap.

[Kubernetes]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 September 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

It's not that bad to warrant an increase in ghost heat, it really just needs a decrease in heat as the 4 ERPPC Warhawk proved.

No, it needs the cooldown returned to 4 seconds. The dual ERPPC Summoner is pretty much dead (who is actually using this build in FW to put up 1K damage?), as is the Hunchy version. At 5 seconds it pumps out damage way too slowly to rely only on one pair. The cERPPC is so hot that you can’t really pair them with many other weapons. It’d be okay if you could pair them with gauss, but GH linking killed that. That’s why only the Warhawk is still effective— because it boats four of them.

[Khobai]

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

That makes no sense. Why does spread as a mechanic suddenly become fine in your eyes on low heat weapons? What tangible difference does it make if the weapons have low heat, especially if I'm running enough heat sinks to remain relatively heat neutral whilst firing one or more PPCs continuously, aside from low heat being a generally preferable stat to have on all weapons.

um because spread damage is way less powerful than PPFLD

therefore spread damage weapons need to cost less heat than PPFLD in order to not be outright worse

makes perfect sense to me

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

And until the tech basis are balanced IS are going to keep getting overquirked mechs, which was my final point. But when you introduced overquirked Clan mechs the balance just swings right back around which is exactly what we are seeing with the Warhawk Prime.

lmao what? how is the warhawk prime overquirked?

it gets 10% CERPPC velocity and -4% CERPPC heat generation

if thats your idea of overquirked thats laughable. have you even looked at the PPC quirks on the IS side?

theres some IS mechs that get like 30% PPC velocity, -10% PPC heat gen, and other quirks too like cooldown reduction or range increases. I dont think you realize just how absurd PPC quirks are on the IS side. not only does IS have three times more mechs with PPC quirks but their quirks are like three times better too.

so yeah dont tell me the CERPPC shouldnt be x3 ghost heat too when IS get insane PPC quirks like that. maybe if the IS quirks got nerfed down to reasonable levels you could convince me CERPPC shouldnt be ghost heat limit of 3. But as long as those ridiculous quirks exist the CERPPC is just bad in comparison. The only thing keeping it marginally afloat is CDHS which are completely overpowered compared to ISDHS, and that should absolutely be fixed.

Kubernetes, on 10 September 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

That’s why only the Warhawk is still effective— because it boats four of them.

the 4 CERPPC warhawk only manages to be somewhat effective because it carries like 27 CDHS. its not because the CERPPC is good or because of its quirks. because its quirks are really bad after it got nerfed. its because CDHS are broken as hell compared to ISDHS.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kubernetes, on 10 September 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, it needs the cooldown returned to 4 seconds. The dual ERPPC Summoner is pretty much dead (who is actually using this build in FW to put up 1K damage?), as is the Hunchy version.

The Hunchy version never fired that often and the ERPPC Summoner had quirk nerfs and the Night Gyr that killed it off. The quirks the Summoner lost: https://static.mwome...an%20Quirks.pdf

The ERPPC Summoner lost 10% heat gen AND 10% cooldown which both combined kinda murdered how often it could repeat shots.

Kubernetes, on 10 September 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

That’s why only the Warhawk is still effective— because it boats four of them.

The Warhawk isn't effective, the moment they killed the the dissipation buffs on the C is the moment the Warhawk become too hot for the meta.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 September 2018 - 04:30 PM.