157 replies to this topic

[Kubernetes]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

the 4 CERPPC warhawk only manages to be somewhat effective because it carries like 27 CDHS. its not because the CERPPC is good or because of its quirks. because its quirks are really bad after it got nerfed. its because CDHS are broken as hell compared to ISDHS.

And the Summoner can boat 20+ cDHS for only 2 ERPPCs. The Summoner runs cooler, and yet it's less viable than the Warhawk. Why? Because if pushed the Warhawk can still pump out damage at a reasonable rate. The Summoner only carries two weapons, and with a 5 sec cooldown it's toast if it's pushed. At this point the Summoner is only good for long range sniping, whereas before you could fight at all ranges.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

um because spread damage is way less powerful than PPFLD

therefore spread damage weapons need to cost less heat than PPFLD in order to not be outright worse

makes perfect sense to me



lmao what? how is the warhawk prime overquirked?

it gets 10% CERPPC velocity and -4% CERPPC heat generation

if thats your idea of overquirked thats laughable. have you even looked at the PPC quirks on the IS side?

PGI should have, right from the start, really ripped out all vestiges of eSports from anything and everything outside of Solaris. Then we could have another dimension in MWO: numbers.

But no, eSports was just too seductive to PGI and a large chunk of the player base.

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 04:42 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kubernetes, on 10 September 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

And the Summoner can boat 20+ cDHS for only 2 ERPPCs. The Summoner runs cooler, and yet it's less viable than the Warhawk. Why? Because if pushed the Warhawk can still pump out damage at a reasonable rate.

No it can't. Heat is way more of a limiting factor than cooldown is just like with Heavy PPCs on the IS side. It bewilders me why people keep making this weird claims like the Warhawk can pump out damage with 4 cERPPCs. Unless I missed them undoing the of the C's quirk nerf (it lost 9% heat gen in this patch: https://static.mwome...009-19-2017.pdf) then it hasn't been able to sling near enough PPCs for a long time and even back then it didn't withstand pushes the greatest, especially with Supernovas around during that period.


Either way, both the Summoner and Warhawk sort of fell out of the meta because of quirk nerfs well before the cooldown got increased on the cERPPC (for the second time I might add) and the meta shift towards the Deathstrike and Night Gyr only solidified that (good enough range capabilities AND solid DPS). Now I'm not against undoing the last cooldown nerf that brought it from 4.5s to 5s, but let's not pretend like undoing it is magically going to fix the issue because heat is still the major blocker of DPS on these mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 September 2018 - 04:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 10 September 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

Then we could have another dimension confounding variable in MWO: numbers.

Fixed it for clarity.

[Khobai]

Mystere, on 10 September 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

PGI should have, right from the start, really ripped out all vestiges of eSports from anything and everything outside of Solaris. Then we could have another dimension in MWO: numbers.

But no, eSports was just too seductive to PGI and a large chunk of the player base.

or they shouldve just added dinosaurs

[Abaddun]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

um because spread damage is way less powerful than PPFLD

therefore spread damage weapons need to cost less heat than PPFLD in order to not be outright worse

makes perfect sense to me

Aside from spread damage weapons generally dealing more bulk damage, like For example, the CERPPC, which deals 33% more damage than the ISERPPC, go figure. Apparently the idea of saturation damage seems to go way over your head. Take, for example a MRM 20, comparatively similar base tonnage to the regular IS PPC if we were to load the PPC with extra heatsinks to remain heat neutral. Comparatively, the MRM 20 has almost twice the DPS of the PPC at the same optimal range, ignoring for now the extra max range of the PPC. Now whilst in theory, if you landed every single shot with a PPC on the CT your time to kill would be shorter then that of an MRM 20, however, in a realistic scenario, damage will be twisted away, shots will miss, you will hit the odd arm etc, in which case it pays it hurl as much splash DPS down range as you can to soften a target. And what do you know, the CERPPC has a higher DPS then the ISERPPC, go figure.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

lmao what? how is the warhawk prime overquirked?

it gets 10% CERPPC velocity and -4% CERPPC heat generation

if thats your idea of overquirked thats laughable. have you even looked at the PPC quirks on the IS side?

theres some IS mechs that get like 30% PPC velocity, -10% PPC heat gen, and other quirks too like cooldown reduction or range increases. I dont think you realize just how absurd PPC quirks are on the IS side. not only does IS have three times more mechs with PPC quirks but their quirks are like three times better too.

The warhawk prime has a 20% CERPPC velocity, a 15% missile cooldown reduction and IS tier structure quirks. The IS mechs that received super strong PPC quirks were in dire need of a niche, take for example, the Awesome 8Q, a mech which I see maybe every 20 games and the Panther 9R, a mech which I saw only briefly during the sale event then never again.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

so yeah dont tell me the CERPPC shouldnt be x3 ghost heat too when IS get insane PPC quirks like that. maybe if the IS quirks got nerfed down to reasonable levels you could convince me CERPPC shouldnt be ghost heat limit of 3. But as long as those ridiculous quirks exist the CERPPC is just bad in comparison. The only thing keeping it marginally afloat is CDHS which are completely overpowered compared to ISDHS, and that should absolutely be fixed.

No it shouldn't have a GH cap of 3 because that's bloody mental. That's asking for abuse from poptarters and PPC+Guass combos. Not only that but it would completely cripple the IS, who are only barely capable of dealing with Clan laser vomit because of a high burn, and you want to give clan a high damage, low face time option? I'm sorry but that's nuts.

I think the best thing for you to do is take a serious look at how many mechs you see running around with IS PPCs of all types in both QP and FP, then compare that to what you see on the Clanner side.

Edited by Abaddun, 10 September 2018 - 05:57 PM.

[Khobai]

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

No it shouldn't have a GH cap of 3 because that's bloody mental. That's asking for abuse from poptarters and PPC+Guass combos.

no its not.

1) what clan mech is gonna poptart with three CERPPCs? Warhawks cant poptart. Summoner can barely even fit two CERPPCs and cant fit three. Mechs like the Night Gyr have been laughably nerfed so they can barely function as mechs let alone poptart. No clan mech can do it well enough for it to be a threat. Its an irrational fear.

2) Furthermore, even with ghost heat of x3 on CERPPC, you still wouldnt be able fire more than two ERPPC/Gauss together without generating ghost heat because clan gauss would still be linked with CERPPCs and set at x2 ghost heat. Again what are you talking about?

Youre afraid of clans being able to do things they just wont be able to do.

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

Not only that but it would completely cripple the IS, who are only barely capable of dealing with Clan laser vomit because of a high burn, and you want to give clan a high damage, low face time option? I'm sorry but that's nuts.

30 PPFLD+splash damage is hardly high damage lol.

dual heavy gauss+5 lasers doing 80 damage is high damage. x3 CERPPC not so much.

you vehemently defend IS having an 80 damage damage dual heavy gauss alpha, 50 damage of which is PPFLD and generates low amounts of heat. but youre horribly opposed to letting clans have a 30+7.5-15 damage PPFLD alpha with splash damage that generates TREMENDOUS heat. what a joke. biased much?

Abaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

I think the best thing for you to do is take a serious look at how many mechs you see running around with IS PPCs of all types in both QP and FP, then compare that to what you see on the Clanner side.

Do you listen? Because ive explained that like 10 times.

The reason is because ISDHS are terribad. IS cant take enough DHS to make PPCs work for them. Only clans can. The WHOLE PROBLEM is that ISDHS need to be buffed. It has nothing to do with CERPPCs being too good.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 09:32 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Mystere, on 08 September 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

As per the title.

What's a 30-point alpha these days anyway? <shrugs>

LOL, how about.. NO.

30 point alpha to a single component is OP.. there's good reason why it has ghost heat.. PPC+Gauss meta is powerful enough.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

no its 30 meaningful damage and 7.5+ trash damage that almost never matters. and worse performance than the ERPPC in literally every other category. And it actually weighs more tonnage if you have to take a targeting computer.

The thing is that, the 7.5 trash damage, piles up every shot. It might not be going somewhere you don't intend to, but **** it, it's going somewhere. You can't just compare CERPPC and iERPPC because the two have different roles on their own techbases.

Again, you don't have to take a targetting computer, it's fine without it. Remember that, Clans do not have a variety of PPC in the first place so that, CERPPC is supposed to have a trade-off for also being for shorter ranges. Being effectively optimal at ranges between 600m and 810m is understandable.

Not to mention that the TCs affect all of the PPCs at once, so the more PPC you bring, the more useful it is. Such as if you allow 3x CERPPC, people will bring 6x CERPPC because it's pretty much possible, now even your argument of TC would matter so little because the same weight you needed to match the velocity of the iERPPC is divided into 6.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

and CDHS being better than ISDHS is not the fault of the CERPPC. the CERPPC shouldnt be punished because of that. its the fault of ISDHS not being as good as CDHS. I have said many times that ISDHS need to be buffed. ISDHS cost 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots so they should dissipate heat faster than CDHS.

That's funny, we're here trying to increase PPC GH for the current state of the game, yet here you are arguing for a different state of the game. Of course the disapproval 3x CERPPC is for the current state of the game, just as the approval for the 3x iPPC is. Why be inconsistent? The hell's wrong with you? Once we change the CDHS balancing, the entire perspective also shifts.

And why would you exempt CERPPC? We're here for the god damn result, the entire CLAN tech is contributing for the OPness of the Clan and it's equipment, simply isolating ERPPC wouldn't be conducive when we're trying to balance. Whether CERPPC is "balanced" with respect to the IS version weapon to weapon is largely irrelevant if builds are capable of outperforming it in many ways. It's really annoying how it's always the wall we hit, is your tunnel vision.

Tell you what, fix the tech imbalance first, then we'll talk.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

Instead of punishing clan weapons constantly because CDHS are better, why not buff ISDHS to be on par? That makes so much more sense than continually nerfing clan weapons and not fixing the underlying problem of massive disparity between clan vs IS heatsink performance.

Either way works, in fact buffing IS is what we are doing, dafuq you're talking about?

Clan ERPPC is just being left out, we're not nerfing it.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

No one is saying splash damage doesnt help. It certainly helps a small amount.

But it certainly doesnt help enough that the CERPPC shouldnt get x3 ghost heat limit

Even if both the CERPPC and ERPPC are both x3 ghost heat limit, the ERPPC retains several key advantages over the CERPPC. I listed them all above.

True, however techbase differences says otherwise. Such as we're looking at a 6-ton weapon doing 12.5-15 damage, even if that's just 10 PPFLD + 2.5-5 spread damage, that's still damage that's going somewhere. And that 6-tons, coupled with smaller-lighter everything else with Clan-tech, we're looking at Clans doing better 3x CERPPC than IS, and their 2x CERPPC is already acceptable, if not stellar. Hell, not a lot of people even take ERPPC and PPC anymore, and that is because of HPPC phasing them out.

This is what is lacking on your arguments, the god damn bigger picture.

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

So yeah... x3 ghost heat for all non-heavy PPCs including CERPPC. And buff ISDHS so theyre not terribad anymore.

No for CERPPC, just ******* no.

Also balance the techbase first. We'll keep asking for nerfs one after another otherwise.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 September 2018 - 12:18 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Khobai, on 10 September 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

no its not. 1) what clan mech is gonna poptart with three CERPPCs? Warhawks cant poptart. Summoner can barely even fit two CERPPCs and cant fit three. Mechs like the Night Gyr have been laughably nerfed so they can barely function as mechs let alone poptart. No clan mech can do it well enough for it to be a threat. Its an irrational fear. 2) Furthermore, even with ghost heat of x3 on CERPPC, you still wouldnt be able fire more than two ERPPC/Gauss together without generating ghost heat because clan gauss would still be linked with CERPPCs and set at x2 ghost heat. Again what are you talking about? Youre afraid of clans being able to do things they just wont be able to do. 30 PPFLD+splash damage is hardly high damage lol. dual heavy gauss+5 lasers doing 80 damage is high damage. x3 CERPPC not so much. you vehemently defend IS having an 80 damage damage dual heavy gauss alpha, 50 damage of which is PPFLD and generates low amounts of heat. but youre horribly opposed to letting clans have a 30+7.5-15 damage PPFLD alpha with splash damage that generates TREMENDOUS heat. what a joke. biased much?

That is cherry picking.

IS 80 Point alpha is tied to 95/100 ton assault mechs. For those 80 points you'd need almost 50 tons dedicated to weapondry and ammo.
It a horrible comparison.
It's ammo based.
It's tied to STD engines.
It's on a base range of just 220 meter.

You're much better of comparing a death strike with 80 Points of damage to a fafnir with 80 points of damage.
That is a fair view on two different approches.
Deathstrike, doubles and triples the effective range, is faster, has way better heat dispension.
Fafnir has way shorter burntime, more FLPD, higher health components.
In short, Clan has the range advantage, IS can murder up close and personal.
This is what asymetrical balance should look like.

To get back on topic, 80 damage points IS assaults are meant to get in your face. It's their playstyle to get arround the fact they're slow and clunky and murder something as fast as possible once they are in engagement range.

Clan PPC builds are build arround a total different playstyle. They are not meant to get close and personal, they don't ever want to get tied into a close range engagment. They are build to be opportunistic with minimal exposure.

These are two opposite playstyles. If your PPC boat dies to a 80 point damage IS assault, it's not because you get horrible outgunned at 250ish~ meter. It's because you already lost several minutes ago when you failed to force your ranged playstyle of attrition and the IS mech forced his strong closerange playstyle on you.

[dante245]

what we need is boost to the damage of the ppcs" 3 to 5 damage splash" or reduce the heat pur shot. they are not effective in there current state compared to simple lazer boat mettas

[Abaddun]

dante245, on 11 September 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

what we need is boost to the damage of the ppcs&quot; 3 to 5 damage splash&quot; or reduce the heat pur shot. they are not effective in there current state compared to simple lazer boat mettas

Don't forget PGI are aware laser vomit is overperforming and are addressing that with changes to the heat scale. It's hard to tell if this will catch PPCs in the crossfire, but if the dissipation changes to external heatsinks go through then we could see twin PPCs become heat neutral on fewer heatsinks.

[Shifty McSwift]

Make em all do splash damage and slightly less PP damage to compensate output. Then you can have reasonable heat levels, play with cooldowns a bit more etc, and it separates them from both ballistic and laser further as a weapon type.

edit; and then add boosting splash damage as a firepower tree upgrade for ppcs.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 11 September 2018 - 03:57 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Abaddun, on 11 September 2018 - 03:37 AM, said:

Don't forget PGI are aware laser vomit is overperforming and are addressing that with changes to the heat scale. It's hard to tell if this will catch PPCs in the crossfire, but if the dissipation changes to external heatsinks go through then we could see twin PPCs become heat neutral on fewer heatsinks.

People say that PGI increasing sustained DPS is an indirect buff anyways so, lol.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

Tell you what, fix the tech imbalance first, then we'll talk.

I say it again: screw the tech imbalance. The BattleTech way is "quality vs. quantity".

Remember, during the 10C vs. 12IS tests, the Clans got consistently wiped.

I call that a beginning.

However, some probably see it as "an inconvenient truth".

But all of the above are another matter.

Edited by Mystere, 11 September 2018 - 06:52 AM.

[Mystere]

Shifty McSwift, on 11 September 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

Make em all do splash damage and slightly less PP damage to compensate output. Then you can have reasonable heat levels, play with cooldowns a bit more etc, and it separates them from both ballistic and laser further as a weapon type.

edit; and then add boosting splash damage as a firepower tree upgrade for ppcs.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd rather have these over simple stat changes:

Mystere, on 08 September 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

Also, I think all PPCs should have more side effects on target:

• targeting loss
  
• heat spike
  
• HUD disruption

Edited by Mystere, 11 September 2018 - 07:07 AM.

[Khobai]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 11 September 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

IS 80 Point alpha is tied to 95/100 ton assault mechs. For those 80 points you'd need almost 50 tons dedicated to weapondry and ammo.

not sure what point youre trying to make because a warhawk has to devote just as much tonnage to operating 4 CERPPCs.

24 tons for x4 CERPPCs and 27 tons for CDHS = 51 tons

and it can only do 20 PPFLD damage at a time... not 50. And its max alpha is much lower.

plus its way more limited by heat and prone to overheating.

derp.

honestly allowing the warhawk to fire x3 CERPPC at a time is not overpowered in the least compared to what other mechs are already capable of.

splash damage on 3 CERPPCs is not going to break the game. unlike dual heavy gauss which actually does break the game.

The6thMessenger, on 11 September 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

That's funny, we're here trying to increase PPC GH for the current state of the game

because unlike you I actually realize that increasing IS PPC ghost heat to x3 is pointless if you dont also buff ISDHS so they can actually sustain firing 3 PPCs at a time. ISDHS suck so bad now they cant even sustain firing 2 ERPPCs...

the whole reason PPCs are bad on the IS side is because they cant deal with the heat. so what good is increasing the ghost heat limit going to do if you dont also increase the dissipation? I mean really.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 11 September 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

Clan PPC builds are build arround a total different playstyle. They are not meant to get close and personal, they don't ever want to get tied into a close range engagment. They are build to be opportunistic with minimal exposure.

really because werent you all just saying CERPPCs arnt meant to be used at long range? lmao

make up your minds. you keep flipflopping.

you have no coherent argument. all you have is your obvious IS bias.

anyways im done. I cant argue with people that cant stick to one position.

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2018 - 12:49 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Khobai, on 11 September 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

not sure what point youre trying to make because a warhawk has to devote just as much tonnage to operating 4 CERPPCs.
24 tons for x4 CERPPCs and 27 tons for CDHS = 51 tons
and it can only do 20 PPFLD damage at a time... not 50. And its max alpha is much lower.
plus its way more limited by heat and prone to overheating.

20 of the 27 tons of heatsinks are hardwired, guess why people slap 4 ppcs on warhawks.
And yes, "only" 20 FLPD but at a base of 810 and not 220 meter, without ammo limitations. The drawback IS THE HEAT duuh.

I don't know why you want to see heavy gauss closerange setups and ppc longrange setups compete at the same field. They are quite literally polar builds.

Khobai, on 11 September 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

really because werent you all just saying CERPPCs arnt meant to be used at long range? lmao

make up your minds. you keep flipflopping.

you have no coherent argument. all you have is your obvious IS bias.

anyways im done. I cant argue with people that cant stick to one position.

I said you want to play at an advantage in range. You do need time to cool off after all. My warhawk and my adder doing it by staying at range, my huntsman/hunchback/summoner doing it by using jumpjet versatility and verticality use of cover.
I would not want to get anywhere near IS brawlers with any of my PPC build.

I don't see where i personally made a "flipflop".
I don't have an IS bias either, i play both sides and i know both ups and downs.
I've been push by IS closerange setups and i've been grinded down by Clan PPCs setups. Hench my throwing my 50 cents into the conversation.

There is no coherent argument because you are talking with different people with different experiences, opinions and takes on the matter.


I do not want to make any sort of PPC into a closerange weapon other then snubnose ppcs.
I would like them to be a valid option for precise damage delivery at mid to long range.

With the current stats, i find them a bit lacking since the removal of gauss+ppc setups. 2+2 was a bit too strong but nowhere near too strong to nerf it down to 1+1. The skill level needed to use those setups wasn't too low either and you had to have good aim to begin with.

I personally don't see PPC competing well with midrange laser or AC setups, i also see them flat out losing to longrange setups.
Hench my take would be to slightly buff velocity and work with quirks to reduce heat on certain mechs (like the adder and warhawk shown).

Further i would like to see the gauss + ppc heat penalty reduced or even set to 2 + 1 (as in 2 ppc + 1 gaus or 2 gauss + 1 ppc).
Nightgyr and timberwolf, as well as hellbringer and ebon jaguar could run those builds well and had to be played with good aim and good sense of positioning while watching their heat.

I can also see such setups work for Warhammers and marauders as well as several IS assaults.

Raising the ghost heat cap for PPC won't benefit any of the current Clan ppc builds. most only field 2 ppcs.
The oddball warhawk is using 4 by firing 2 + 2, i don't see it work better with 3 +1.
I don't remotely see it work better versus heavy gauss setups in close range just because it can fire 30 FLPD for 45 heat.
None of the old and current PPC builds worked with 3 ppcs, they worked with 2 or 2 + gauss.
That is my position.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 11 September 2018 - 06:04 PM.

[Humpday]

PPCs suuuckkkkk.
Only the most heavily quirked Mechs can wield them effectively/dangerously.

Warhawk, Awesome and Thor...thats it(well, thats all in my memory that I've seen anywhere near useful)

Anything lighter than an assault gets too dang hot.
I mean you can certainly troll people for giggles in light mechs zipping around with a singe PPC...but thats about it.

The heat needs to be dialed back a tiny bit I think and if people start spamming them, just make a portion of the weapon splash damage.

[FupDup]

Humpday, on 11 September 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

Warhawk, Awesome and Thor...thats it(well, thats all in my memory that I've seen anywhere near useful)

Nova-A and Adder-Prime have good quirks for Peepers.