157 replies to this topic

[Variant1]

Mystere, on 09 September 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

Are you sure you're not talking about LRMs?

nooooooo.......

[Kubernetes]

Mystere, on 09 September 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

As for the Summoner, I haven't used it for a while. However, I was not too impressed the last time I tried dual CERPPCs on it.

For a while it was (IMO) the best Clan heavy. It could sling those peeps at an incredible rate.

[C E Dwyer]

No

I agree with Fupdup, and El on their points, so no point in adding further

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 08 September 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

CERPPC, hell no.

CERPPC should definitely be ghost heat limit of 3 too

because thats still only 30 PPFLD

its unfair to make ERPPC ghost heat of 3 and not make CERPPC also ghost heat of 3. Because then IS can do 30 PPFLD while clans are still limited to 20 PPFLD. And the ERPPC is already superior to the CERPPC in a number of ways as is (better heat, better cooldown, better velocity, better quirks, better crit health, etc...). Youd just be making the ERPPC outright superior to the CERPPC which is ridiculous.

the splash damage on the CERPPC is largely inconsequential. For some reason you have an irrational fear of CERPPC splash damage when its really not that good. Half the time half the splash damage disappears into thin air anyway. Its a joke. When it comes to PPCs its ultimately the PPFLD that matters the most.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2018 - 07:11 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 08 September 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

For IS PPC, ERPPC, and SNPPC, sure. We'll have to figure out some way to make the regular PPC actually different from the HPPC in a way that allows both to co-exist without one obsoleting the other, but we have that issue now already.

HPPC, lolno.

LPPC, no because I think they should be differentiated in some way like faster cooldown that makes them stand out from the PPC and HPPC.

CERPPC, hell no.

This. Although i think we can solve that by having HPPC have better velocity for longer ranges, but PPCs have better cooldown. This way, we can either choose for the heavier 3x PPC for faster DPS up close, or 2x HPPC for longer range with worse DPS.

Like this:
HPPC (2x GH)
- Heat: 13
- Cooldown: 5.00s
- Velocity: 1300
PPC (3x GH)
- Heat: 9
- Cooldown: 4.00s
- Velocity: 1200
LPPC (3x GH)
- Heat: 4
- Cooldown: 3.00s
- Velocity: 1100

Khobai, on 09 September 2018 - 07:01 AM, said:

CERPPC should definitely be ghost heat limit of 3 too

because thats still only 30 PPFLD

Why, don't you think that the 15 splash damage won't be doing anything? That's still 45 damage total, for a techbase that already has 6 tons each for it. No, just no.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 September 2018 - 07:13 AM.

[panzer1b]

I agree with this just not for HPPC (and maybee not clam PPC as its super niche but still workable).

That said, ghost heat changes (unless they are so crazy as to allow 40-50 damage without ghost heat) really wont make the PPCs that much better then they are now. They are insanely inefficient compared to lasers, and unlike lasers, PPCs can and will miss some of their shots which results in their already pis poor damage/heat dropping even more when you factor in how many times you will fail to hit some of the more agile targets like lights and fast meds. Lasers will spread their damage every time against fastr movers, but at least you dealt most of the damage to said mech.

The worst part with PPCs is that their PPFLD nature isnt quite as crazy in pugs as most people seem to think. Sure you deal 20-30 dmg to a single spot, but unless you are either top 5% in skill or deal with massive targets like direcows or king krabs, it is extremely unlikely for you to hit the exact same component on a moving target that is likely to be returning fire with any sort of consistency, or at least not at the edge of the weapon's optimal range. This is why i do NOT use clam ERPPCs at all, the lowish velocity combined with little to no quirks makes it virtually impossible to hit one component on a moving target consistently past ~400-500m. Why pay the heat price for having a range of 800m when you cant effectively utilize that range due to the inability to hit something every time.

That and the final nail to the coffin for PPCs is their derpy hitreg. I cant even count the number of times i fired PPCs at targets, only to have the ground eat the round or worse have hitreg make them deal 0.0 damage per shot.

They are a fun weapon to play when im sick of 24/7 meta, but as of this moment the ONLY mech i have outfitted with any PPCs is the summoner, and even that only runs a single PPC (its a 1 GR and 1 PPC build which is actually cooler running and benefits from the absurd 30% or so ballistic cooldown it has not to mention better damage from the gauss).

So yeah, i can get behind the 3 ghost heat for all IS PPCs but the HPPC as that actually works sorta. that and seriosly drop heat on the snub, its supposed to be a brawling weapon, but its just so bloody hot that it cant be effectively used in a sustained brawl. If it ends up too powerful with better heat management, then drop its max range as to further reinforce the brawling intention for it.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 09 September 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Why, don't you think that the 15 splash damage won't be doing anything? That's still 45 damage total, for a techbase that already has 6 tons each for it. No, just no.

Its not always 45 damage total. Splash damage isnt 100% reliable. Half the time half of it just disappears. And a lot of the time the splash damage doesnt even contribute at all towards killing the mech. If splash damage was actually 100% reliable things might be different, but its not.

Yes CERPPC should absolutely be ghost heat limit of 3. Because when it comes to PPCs its the PPFLD that matters the most.

Alternatively you could remove some of the absolutely ridiculous PPC quirks that IS mechs get. But either way something would have to give or the CERPPC would end up being worse.

The6thMessenger, on 09 September 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

for a techbase that already has 6 tons each for it.

actually if the CERPPC wants the same velocity as the ERPPC it requires a targeting computer. Once the weight of the TC is factored in the CERPPC actually weighs MORE than the ERPPC. The fact the CERPPC is only 6 tons isnt an advantage if youre forced to take a targeting computer to up the velocity.

if you made the ERPPC x3 ghost heat and left the CERPPC at x2, the ERPPC would become vastly superior.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2018 - 07:45 AM.

[East Indy]

For a start, I'd like to see rollbacks of ancient nerfs from ancient times.

Increase velocity to the original 2000 m/s — for all calibers. The slowness of autocannons precludes meta mixing, and Gauss is now subject to heat scale; the original conditions for the (partially rolled back) 2014 velocity nerf have changed. There's also no real reason why ERs should be faster, as they bring benefits of greater effective range.

Obviously, MWO's simplistic fire control rules are why we can't have nice things. So, at least with Heat Scale in place, a few more FLD weapons that are effective at long range would give players other things to do with energy hardpoints.

[FupDup]

East Indy, on 09 September 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

For a start, I'd like to see rollbacks of ancient nerfs from ancient times.

Increase velocity to the original 2000 m/s — for all calibers. The slowness of autocannons precludes meta mixing, and Gauss is now subject to heat scale; the original conditions for the (partially rolled back) 2014 velocity nerf have changed. There's also no real reason why ERs should be faster, as they bring benefits of greater effective range.

Obviously, MWO's simplistic fire control rules are why we can't have nice things. So, at least with Heat Scale in place, a few more FLD weapons that are effective at long range would give players other things to do with energy hardpoints.

The ERPPC needs the superior velocity because a projectile weapon's effective range is not purely based on your spreadsheet "max range" value like it is for lasers. Your velocity has a direct impact on your effective range as well. Higher velocity equals longer effective range because you're going to more consistently nail targets that are way off in the distance if your projectile flies faster.

We saw this on the opposite end of the spectrum (too slow rather than too fast) when PPCs got nerfed to just 850 m/s. They were nearly useless at their listed 540m range. The 950 m/s ERPPC was worse than useless at its 810m listed range.

Something like an extra 100-300 m/s for each IS PPC (some getting more than others) would be fine, but no to standardization. The PPC, HPPC, and LPPC already overlap too much as it is. No need to make the ERPPC also overlap with them.

Edited by FupDup, 09 September 2018 - 08:59 AM.

[East Indy]

FupDup, on 09 September 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

Something like an extra 100-300 m/s for each IS PPC (some getting more than others) would be fine, but no to standardization. The PPC, HPPC, and LPPC already overlap too much as it is. No need to make the ERPPC also overlap with them.

The "overlap" is player perception of being inferior to reliable hitscan weapons with no minimum range. Conventional wisdom on this suffers badly from the "5% syndrome" of not bothering to think deeply about something hardly anyone uses. Utility between each is obvious: 1) high DPS yet cool and compact, 2) better FLD for extra tonnage and slots, 3) low-tonnage FLD. But, again, no one's looking because, as I implied and you spelled out, low velocity impacts effective range. Easier leading of targets won't trivialize the ER's full damage from nearly 300m farther away.

Edited by East Indy, 09 September 2018 - 09:39 AM.

[FupDup]

East Indy, on 09 September 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

The "overlap" is player perception of being inferior to reliable hitscan weapons with no minimum range. Conventional wisdom on this suffers badly from the "5% syndrome" of not bothering to think deeply about something hardly anyone uses. Utility between each is obvious: 1) higher DPS, 2) better FLD for extra tonnage and slots, 3) low-tonnage FLD. But, again, no one's looking because, as I inferred and you spelled out, low velocity impacts effective range. Easier leading of targets won't trivialize the ER's full damage from nearly 300m farther away.

This isn't just about balancing PPCs against lasers. This is about balancing the PPC, LPPC, HPPC, and ERPPC against each other.

Excluding the 'ER they currently all have the same optimal and minimum ranges plus velocity. Their heat ratios are so close that they might as well be the same. All of them except the HPPC have the same cooldown, and they tend to be limited by heat more than cooldown anyways. The only substantial difference is that the HPPC lets you have a larger max alpha strike before Ghost Heat kicks in. The slots and tonnage don't make them actually feel different on the battlefield. They are functionally the same weapon.

The 'ER at least for the moment has a substantially different velocity and range to make it feel different, although it's not quite enough on mechs that don't have significant quirks for it.

What I've been asking for is for actual differences like shaving off at least 0.5 seconds off the LPPC's cooldown to make it the "DPS PPC," while keeping its heat where it is so it can't replace the bigger Peepers.

Differentiating the PPC vs. HPPC isn't as clear cut though. One option is to let the HPPC keep the higher max alpha strike before Ghost Heat as your "Brute Force PPC," but let the regular PPC have somewhat more favorable heat and velocity as the "Efficient Baseline PPC." The ER I guess could use even further velocity and maybe a wee bit less heat (but still way more than any other IS PPC type).

The SNPPC is already on the right track because of its range and lack of min range, it mostly just needs less heat so it can truly hold its own in a brawl.

Edited by FupDup, 09 September 2018 - 09:50 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

2 ER-PPC + 1 Gauss ?
2 HPPC + 1 HGauss ?

Havn't we had 2 PPC + 2 Gauss meta for a llong time?

I'd like to have it back, sure. But, i doubt our balance overlords will revoke their bann on those kind of setups.

[Black Ivan]

PPC are lacking and need some help.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 09 September 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Why, don't you think that the 15 splash damage won't be doing anything? That's still 45 damage total, for a techbase that already has 6 tons each for it. No, just no.

How often do you think the full splash damage is applied?

panzer1b, on 09 September 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

(and maybee not clam PPC as its super niche but still workable).

The whole point of doing the same to the CERPPC is to make it more than just "super niche but still workable". Why do you think laser vomit is the go-to for most Clan Mechs?

Edited by Mystere, 09 September 2018 - 11:17 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Why not raise cERPPC GH limit to three? Firing three would be hot AF and would probably require a minimum of 25 DHS to use effectively. How many Clan mechs can do that? EBJ and a few assaults?

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 09 September 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

The ERPPC needs the superior velocity because a projectile weapon's effective range is not purely based on your spreadsheet "max range" value like it is for lasers. Your velocity has a direct impact on your effective range as well. Higher velocity equals longer effective range because you're going to more consistently nail targets that are way off in the distance if your projectile flies faster.

correct but the CERPPC doesnt get the velocity it needs. it has to supplement with a targeting computer. which makes it weigh more than the ERPPC.

thats why the CERPPC is worse than the ERPPC. it only appears better because CDHS are way better than ISDHS. But thats a separate balance issue entirely and Ive always said ISDHS need to be buffed.

but theres absolutely no reason the CERPPC shouldnt have a ghost heat limit of 3 also. And IS-DHS should also get buffed so theyre every bit as good as C-DHS.

Edited by Khobai, 09 September 2018 - 12:33 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 09 September 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

How often do you think the full splash damage is applied?

Fairly common. Lets say half of the time. That is still effectively 2.5 effective-damage each, total of 12.5, that is still effectively 37.5 damage.

Khobai, on 09 September 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

Its not always 45 damage total. Splash damage isnt 100% reliable. Half the time half of it just disappears. And a lot of the time the splash damage doesnt even contribute at all towards killing the mech. If splash damage was actually 100% reliable things might be different, but its not.

If it disappears half of the time, then it's effectively 2.5 splash-damage, so that's still 12.5 damage. You are still looking at 37.5 damage, for 6 tons, when Clans already have the capacity to mass so much DHS.

Khobai, on 09 September 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

Yes CERPPC should absolutely be ghost heat limit of 3. Because when it comes to PPCs its the PPFLD that matters the most.

No, because when it comes to CERPPC, it still has Splash-damage to boot. Just no.

Khobai, on 09 September 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

actually if the CERPPC wants the same velocity as the ERPPC it requires a targeting computer. Once the weight of the TC is factored in the CERPPC actually weighs MORE than the ERPPC.

The fact the CERPPC is only 6 tons isnt an advantage if youre forced to take a targeting computer to up the velocity.

But you aren't forced to get a TC, the CERPPC, while not of the same velocity, it's still usable at those ranges. CERPPC is insanely hot, you are better off with another heatsink.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 September 2018 - 02:27 PM.

[vonJerg]

Make PPCs (both IS and CLAN) great again!

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 09 September 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

correct but the CERPPC doesnt get the velocity it needs. it has to supplement with a targeting computer. which makes it weigh more than the ERPPC.

MWO's CERPPC is actually designed to be used in closer range than IS ERPPC, since CERPPC has no minimum range. As for TC addition, it not only increases velocity but also crit bonus, sensor range, increased zoom, as well as faster paper doll read time--whole bundle of useful things together.

And yes, there is the splash, which is still better than no splash.

Not 100% against increasing CERPPC GH limit, but some aspect of CERPPC has to be nerfed in order for that to happen.

Of course, the most ideal way to balance PPCs is after comprehensive tech balance.

[Abaddun]

I'm with El Bandito on this. Once there are meaningful tradeoffs between tech, weapons can be compared properly, and adjustments made to either side. As it stands from my perspective, neither tech base gets much use out of their PPCs, that's not to say they are bad weapons, it's just that other weapon systems can do the PPCs job better. I'm sure that will change in the future as the meta shifts. I do agree the Snub needs to be adjusted, right now it's in a really weak spot, but lets just see what happens with the heat scale change first.

Personally I am against raising the heat cap on PPCs, even though we have shared GH brackets between gauss and PPCsn the 0.5 delay is negligible unless you're trying to hit fast movers, and in which case landing 2 CERPPCs (or IS PPCs for that matter) +Gauss is just overkill.

Edited by Abaddun, 10 September 2018 - 04:46 AM.