157 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

Potent, pinpoint, long range weapons have more than once or twice proven to be too hard to handle for the mwo community.

The mwo community doesnt like that because they cannot clumsily and aimlessly wander round the map with potent ppcs or gauss ppc comboes.

A challenge a real warrior like me smiled at.

I love potent, strong and manly gauss ppc combos.

I like to fight mechs, with good pilots that also knew how to actually use those weapons. Pilots with skill and aim.

I loved it.

But vast majorty (like 99 %) of mwo community cried and whined about it (gauss and/or ppc) because it was too much for them and they didnt relish brutal and manly gameplay like i do.

Turn mwo into a manly game again.

Make weaopns badass and not water guns.

Right now its a kids game with flowers and roses.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 12 September 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Sure, that's why we compromise. Again, nerf CERPPC to 12 damage and then heat to 11, better yet 10 damage and 9.5 heat, then well talk. I'd really like that Gauss-PPC back as counter to Laser Vomit, but the problem is that, we just can't buff Clan willy nilly -- yes, buffing CERPPC just to be consistent with IS is willy-nilly.

Willy nilly? Applying consistency is the exact opposite of willy nilly.

[Daurock]

I think I'd rather see a simple buff to the weapons, rather than a change to the ghost heat limit.

I look around, and notice that 4 to 6 ERLL builds are far more common than ERPPC builds, both clan and IS. It really doesn't matter which mech size you're looking at, the general preference to Lasers is there. Changing the GH limit doesn't help a ShadowCat, Uziel, or Hunchback2 desire PPCs over a set of Large Lasers.

The weapons could use a small, but direct, Damage buff, IMO. (Think like C-ERPPC and ISPPC/ERPPC getting like 11 or 12 PPFLD damage instead of 10.) That keeps them a relatively slow firing, but slightly more dangerous weapon at all ranges. They'd still be heavier than the Competing Lasers, and still be less Heat efficient, giving the lasers a reason to be there, but they wouldn't give up quite as much damage to said lasers. Ideally, it'd become just a question of whether the individual player values Ranged Pinpoint damage over Ranged volume of damage.

[Variant1]

heck no ppc need nerfs not buffs. they already have damn good velocity buffs and quirks, just fire the thing like a balistic because thats what it is an energy balistic. And those ppcs should be hot they were always hot in TT and in previous mechwarriors games (not to mention slower too)

edit: also the lasers need to get nerfed, increase the heat for all of them especialy large ones and pulses. Remove the quirk tree it gives too much cooling for lasers and burn reduction

Edited by Variant1, 13 September 2018 - 10:45 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 13 September 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

Willy nilly? Applying consistency is the exact opposite of willy nilly.

I don't think you know what the phrase means.

https://www.merriam-...ary/willy-nilly

Again, CERPPC doesn't need the 3x GH in it's current state. Nerf it to have it, else leave it at 2.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

LowSubmarino, on 12 September 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

But vast majorty (like 99 %) of mwo community cried and whined about it (gauss and/or ppc) because it was too much for them and they didnt relish brutal and manly gameplay like i do.

Only a small minority was actually crying and whining about it. It's kind of always like this, a small but very vocal group complains and bombs someones twitter account until some very unnecessary changes getting implemented.
Gauss+ppc meta was used by people who could actually use them well and thus already had an advantage, making the meta appear even stronger.

Personally, i don't think the old 2+2 gauss/ppc meta was so OP that it literally was in need to get cut in half. Both sides, IS and Clans could use it too.

My take is still to increase the overall velocity of all PPCs and buff some standout variants with heatgen quirks.
Also increase gauss / ppc ghostheat combo from 1+1 to 2+1. That would probably not even break the current meta but would very well add some build variety.

As an example:
WHM-6R vs WHM-6R

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 14 September 2018 - 04:16 AM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 13 September 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

I don't think you know what the phrase means.

https://www.merriam-...ary/willy-nilly

Again, CERPPC doesn't need the 3x GH in it's current state. Nerf it to have it, else leave it at 2.

Sigh!

"haphazard" <> "applying consistency", ergo, "willy-nilly" <> "applying consistency"

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2018 - 06:46 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 14 September 2018 - 06:46 AM, said:

Sigh!

"haphazard" <> "applying consistency", ergo, "willy-nilly" <> "applying consistency"

Really? You want to be consistent with PPC, but you're going to let balance be screwed up?

Hows about be consistent with balance? You look at this ==, but then CERPPC =/= IS PPC, you say you're just applying consistency but result is inconsistency.

[Khobai]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 14 September 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

Personally, i don't think the old 2+2 gauss/ppc meta was so OP that it literally was in need to get cut in half. Both sides, IS and Clans could use it too.

it was nerfed more because it wasnt fun. thats what people complained about.

it led to a completely stale one-dimensional meta where poptarting literally dominated every other way of playing the game. We had stagnant games where both teams just camped on their side of the map and sniped at eachother for like 5-6 minutes without anything eventful happening. That was as boring as MWO gets. Glad thats gone and hope it never comes back.

as far as builds go, this game is at its most fun when everyone isnt playing the same exact build...


And raising ghost heat to 3 for non-heavy PPCs is fine. For both IS and clan PPCs.

Ghost heat should also be raised to 3 on light gauss, and its damage should be increased to 10. You should be able to do x2 ISERPPC/x1 Light Gauss or x1 ISERPPC/x2 Light Gauss without ghost heat.

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

Again, CERPPC doesn't need the 3x GH in it's current state. Nerf it to have it, else leave it at 2.

Then the ISERPPC doesnt need x3 either. Because it would be outright better than CERPPC at x3.

Because the ISERPPC is already borderline better than the CERPPC. Making it x3 pushes it way over.

Edited by Khobai, 17 September 2018 - 03:49 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 17 September 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

its not that it was OP. its that it wasnt fun.

it led to a completely stale meta where poptarting literally dominated every other way of playing the game

That's basically the definition of being OP.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 17 September 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

That's basically the definition of being OP.

sortve. one poptart on its own certainly wasnt OP. and there were plenty of builds that could counter a single poptart. but it had a compounding effect.

its when half or more of the teams were doing it that it became OP because youd get smashed in the face by multiple PPFLD alphas at the same time. it was instant death for anyone that didnt also poptart.

its more the fact that everyone was using the same build that made it unfun. if it was just an isolated build it wouldnt have been a problem.

poptarting wasnt like laser vomit OPness. because laser vomit was OP on its own. poptarting was only OP when you had a critical mass of poptarts on your team that you could instantly kill whoever you focused on. And it led to a camping meta and a total paralysis of moving out of cover. And the best counter to poptarts was playing a poptart yourself which only made it worse.

Edited by Khobai, 17 September 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

Really? You want to be consistent with PPC, but you're going to let balance be screwed up?

Hows about be consistent with balance? You look at this ==, but then CERPPC =/= IS PPC, you say you're just applying consistency but result is inconsistency.

Khobai, on 17 September 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

Because the ISERPPC is already borderline better than the CERPPC. Making it x3 pushes it way over.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 17 September 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

"Because the ISERPPC is already borderline better than the CERPPC. Making it x3 pushes it way over."

Lol, no it's not. Up to 15 damage, for 6 tons, it's already better. Not to mention that IS ERPPC isn't the only weapon the CERPPC is matching, it's supposed to be a fill-in for both ERPPC and PPC, and now LPPC, SNPPC, and HPPC.

You think that 10 PPFLD is worth that much? Not with 7 tons, not with low damage/heat, on an already disparaged techbase, and as if that 5 splash damage isn't doing anything -- no it's still piling up over time. Damn, IS ERPPC is doing 10 damage for 13.5 heat, or effectively 0.74 damage/heat. CERPPC, at damage between 12.5 to 15, with 14.5 heat, it's doing 0.862 to 1.0344 damage/heat.

So, what the **** are you even babbling about? iERPPC is better than CERPPC? Don't make me laugh.

Supposed that we even accepted that, the rest of the god damn techbase can still hold on it's own. Hell, taking on that logical conclusion, IS ERPPC shouldn't even be buffed, or CERPPC should be even buffed more than 3x GH -- because after all, CERPPC is worse than ERPPC and you wanted it to be equal.

But again, that's just a narrow look at things, mainly because it's supposed to evaluated by how it fits within the techbase too, not just = to counterpart weapons. No, just ******* no. 3x CERPPC "for consistency" is so ******* short-sighted.

Khobai, on 17 September 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

sortve. one poptart on its own certainly wasnt OP. and there were plenty of builds that could counter a single poptart. but it had a compounding effect.

its when half or more of the teams were doing it that it became OP because youd get smashed in the face by multiple PPFLD alphas at the same time. it was instant death for anyone that didnt also poptart.

its more the fact that everyone was using the same build that made it unfun. if it was just an isolated build it wouldnt have been a problem.

poptarting wasnt like laser vomit OPness. because laser vomit was OP on its own. poptarting was only OP when you had a critical mass of poptarts on your team that you could instantly kill whoever you focused on. And it led to a camping meta and a total paralysis of moving out of cover. And the best counter to poptarts was playing a poptart yourself which only made it worse.

Sounds more like a coordinated set of jumpers or something, or passive enemy players. It's more like Teamwork OP than PPFLD OP. Don't get me wrong, I don't like 2x Gauss + 2x PPC, but that seems like a whacked-out logic.

By that logic, even LRM is OP because at one point, people spammed it so much -- but we both know that LRMs are **** even. Hell, coordinated teams are smashing uncoordinated pugs with LRMs, are they OP? Sure they aren't fun at the receiving end, but that's hardly OP when LRMs on their own aren't that good, why would PPFLD builds be OP just because there's a lot of them in a game and isn't pretty on the receiving end, but not OP when there's only a few?

I'd like to have 2x Gauss + PPC or 2x PPC + Gauss back.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 September 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

Lol, no it's not. Up to 15 damage, for 6 tons, it's already better. Not to mention that IS ERPPC isn't the only weapon the CERPPC is matching, it's supposed to be a fill-in for both ERPPC and PPC, and now LPPC, SNPPC, and HPPC.

You think that 10 PPFLD is worth that much? Not with 7 tons, on an already disparaged techbase, and as if that 5 splash damage isn't doing anything -- no it's still piling up over time.

Supposed that we even accepted that, the rest of the god damn techbase can still hold on it's own. Hell, taking on that logical conclusion, IS ERPPC shouldn't even be buffed, or CERPPC should be even buffed more than 3x GH. But again, that's just a narrow look at things, mainly because it's supposed to evaluated by how it fits within the techbase too, not just = to counterpart weapons.

No, just ******* no. 3x CERPPC "for consistency" is so ******* short-sighted.

That said, bumping the iERPPC to x3 doesn't really fix the iERPPC. The problem is the damage for the heat simply isn't worth it even with the great velocity. iERLLs produce half the HPS for only 20% less DPS (and 10% less burst damage) than a single iERPPC, are hit scan, and weigh 2 tons less. Even with the duration (which IS has 15% duration from the skill tree + whatever mechs have duration quirks), that's still an insane penalty on damage per heat efficiency for being PPFLD especially for a tech base that already has dissipation issues. Making the ghost heat limit 3 just helps the assaults that might be able to spam it which really isn't the problem or why no one uses the iERPPC.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 September 2018 - 08:57 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 September 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

That said, bumping the iERPPC to x3 doesn't really fix the iERPPC. The problem is the damage for the heat simply isn't worth it even with the great velocity. iERLLs produce half the HPS for only 20% less damage than a single iERPPC, are hit scan, and weigh 2 tons less. Even with the duration (which IS has 15% duration from the skill tree + whatever mechs have duration quirks), that's still an insane penalty on damage per heat efficiency. Making the ghost heat limit 3 just helps the assaults that might be able to spam it which really isn't the problem or why no one uses the iERPPC.

Yeeeeep. The 3x is PPCs would just so there's alternative for HPPC for more aggressive builds, it's meant to add variety. I agree, heat needs to go down, I'd take 11.5 heat from 13.5.

[Shifty McSwift]

If they keep all the cooldowns at 4 or 5 I would be fine with the premise of "weighting out" the differences similarly the large/medium laser GH distinction.

Say if the max GH "weight" of PPCs, was 3.0.
Heavy PPCs would provide 1.5, meaning 2 per GH limit
Normal PPCs (and other 10 damage based PP PPCs) would provide 1.0, meaning 3 per GH limit
Light PPCs would provide 0.75, meaning 4 per GH limit.

I mean they are already hot as bowls and no longer link well with gauss, so I really can't see that breaking the game or changing the meta much really, and it gives IS better options to mix and match to hit that 3.0 limit.

[Khobai]

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

So, what the **** are you even babbling about? iERPPC is better than CERPPC? Don't make me laugh.

ive already gone into extreme detail about why its better.

you keep conveniently ignoring how absurd IS PPC quirks are

because if you acknowledge them your entire argument falls apart.

yeah lets just completely ignore the fact that some IS mechs get crazy PPC quirks like +30% velocity, -10% heat generation, and +10% faster cooldown. lets also ignore the fact that three times more IS mechs get PPC quirks than clan mechs. You can literally count the number of viable PPC clan mechs on one hand thats missing fingers.

after you factor quirks in theres no question the ISERPPC is already every bit as good if not better than the CERPPC. So buffing the ISERPPC without buffing the CERPPC is completely out of the question.

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yeeeeep. The 3x is PPCs would just so there's alternative for HPPC for more aggressive builds, it's meant to add variety. I agree, heat needs to go down, I'd take 11.5 heat from 13.5.

then why would you ever use x2 HPPCs? the x3 ERPPCs get the same PPFLD, shorter cooldown, WAY faster velocity, WAY longer range, no min range, for only 1 ton, 1 crit more and a couple extra points of heat.

congrats youve just made the HPPC useless.

you dont balance 5 different specialized PPCs by making them more similar to eachother. you balance them by making them uniquely different so each one excels in one specific role. And there should be very little or no overlap when it comes to those roles.

the ERPPC should be straight up inferior to the HPPC at midrange combat or you balanced it wrong.

But evidently youre so fixated on buffing the ERPPC you dont actually seem to care if its balanced internally or externally vs the CERPPC.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2018 - 01:34 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

congrats youve just made the HPPC useless.

I see what you are getting at but no, not useless at all, the differences might seem negligible but they exist, plus incorporating the benefit of having 2 projectiles over three and only taking up 2 energy hardpoints. So, if you are going to call those differences useless, then so are most of the smaller differences in the game.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 18 September 2018 - 02:16 AM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

So, what the **** are you even babbling about? iERPPC is better than CERPPC? Don't make me laugh.

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

ive already gone into extreme detail about why its better.

you keep conveniently ignoring how absurd IS PPC quirks are

because if you acknowledge them your entire argument falls apart.

^^^ What he said ^^^

The6thMessenger, on 17 September 2018 - 08:48 PM, said:

Not to mention that IS ERPPC isn't the only weapon the CERPPC is matching, it's supposed to be a fill-in for both ERPPC and PPC, and now LPPC, SNPPC, and HPPC.

If after this statement of yours you still do not get why changes to the CERPPC need to track changes to the IS PPC weapons, there really isn't much more to say.

What was my OP again?

[Parmeggido]

Khobai, on 18 September 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

yeah lets just completely ignore the fact that some IS mechs get crazy PPC quirks like +30% velocity, -10% heat generation, and +10% faster cooldown. lets also ignore the fact that three times more IS mechs get PPC quirks than clan mechs. You can literally count the number of viable PPC clan mechs on one hand thats missing fingers.

after you factor quirks in theres no question the ISERPPC is already every bit as good if not better than the CERPPC. So buffing the ISERPPC without buffing the CERPPC is completely out of the question.

I'm just curious which IS mechs with good ppc buffs have you so worried. The BJ-3? Panthers? Vindicraters? Would it be so terrible to have something like the RFL-3D actually on the field with PPCs? Or maybe even bring a few Awesomes out of mothballs? Because that's the problem with trying to use quirks as an argument, many of the highest quirked mechs, on both sides, are facing built in issues. On the other hand, i can look at pretty much any of my IS mechs and wish they could have 3 ton lighter Gauss Rifles. Imagine the Warhammer 6R with an extra 6 tons for the gauss build. I think it would be good to put 3 PPC on the test server, and see how it shakes out, because you're still going to be producing so much heat, it may not be worth it. And yes, I remember the TDR-9S with 50% lower heat ERPPCs. Even now, it still has some of the best quirks and hardpoints to run ERPPCs, but how often do you see that build?