145 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Right because a missile based 65 tonner adds so much to the game.

[1453 R]

Nothing exists that's really unique anymore. Not that Piranha's willing to actually do, anyways. A Fire Moth breaking two hundred would be new, but it'd also exacerbate "LIGHTS OP DX" nonsense and I'm not sure if they ever fixed the Speed Barrier in this game. Beyond that? All that could really be 'new' is improved geometry over older machines, which is more or less straight power creep. The only real reason to introduce new chassis at this point is to fill in nostalgia points.

let's bne real - the Crusader is a terrible 'Mech. Everything it has is in huge, oversized arms that make amazing bullet catchers, which means its guns fall off at the drop of a hat. It's supposed specialty, i.e. close-quarters combat and Giant Robit Fisticuffs, doesn't really exist in MWO. Quirks can only do so much. Either they don't quirk it enough and it's forgotten a week after it drops or they overquirk the hell out of it and it becomes the new meta standard until its quirks go away. A 'Mech with three quarters of its armament shoveled into the arms is gonna need some hellacious quirks to be worth a damn, competitively.

And ye know what? None of that matters. Go ahead and Crusader. Do it up, let the people who're desperate for the full suite of Succession Wars machines have another. Who cares if it's redundant? 'Mechs have been redundant for the last three quarters of whenever, a Competitively Balanced™ game would've stopped with between five to ten options in each weight bracket. We've got approaching nine hundred individual variant options right now, what's a half-dozen more? Seriously? Let people have the critter if they want it, and someone can convinced PGI to make it. The last one there's the dealbreaker, but who knows? The Crusader's something they could backport into MW5 and charge DLC money for, so it may well be work they get to profit from twice.

[Novakaine]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

Right because a missile based 65 tonner adds so much to the game.

Probably not for you I respect that.
But for me it will.

[pbiggz]

idk i dont see why not

[Novakaine]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

Right because a missile based 65 tonner adds so much to the game.

Maybe not for you and I respect that.
But myself and maybe some others it will.

[El Cid]

https://external-con...26pid%3DApi&f=1


always

just
one
more

Edited by El Cid, 05 July 2021 - 12:16 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 05 July 2021 - 09:15 AM, said:

Nothing exists that's really unique anymore. Not that Piranha's willing to actually do, anyways. A Fire Moth breaking two hundred would be new, but it'd also exacerbate "LIGHTS OP DX" nonsense and I'm not sure if they ever fixed the Speed Barrier in this game. Beyond that? All that could really be 'new' is improved geometry over older machines, which is more or less straight power creep. The only real reason to introduce new chassis at this point is to fill in nostalgia points.

let's bne real - the Crusader is a terrible 'Mech. Everything it has is in huge, oversized arms that make amazing bullet catchers, which means its guns fall off at the drop of a hat. It's supposed specialty, i.e. close-quarters combat and Giant Robit Fisticuffs, doesn't really exist in MWO. Quirks can only do so much. Either they don't quirk it enough and it's forgotten a week after it drops or they overquirk the hell out of it and it becomes the new meta standard until its quirks go away. A 'Mech with three quarters of its armament shoveled into the arms is gonna need some hellacious quirks to be worth a damn, competitively.

And ye know what? None of that matters. Go ahead and Crusader. Do it up, let the people who're desperate for the full suite of Succession Wars machines have another. Who cares if it's redundant? 'Mechs have been redundant for the last three quarters of whenever, a Competitively Balanced™ game would've stopped with between five to ten options in each weight bracket. We've got approaching nine hundred individual variant options right now, what's a half-dozen more? Seriously? Let people have the critter if they want it, and someone can convinced PGI to make it. The last one there's the dealbreaker, but who knows? The Crusader's something they could backport into MW5 and charge DLC money for, so it may well be work they get to profit from twice.

There is plenty of much more interesting things to add, that would actually be unique, and most things can be brought in to MW5 once there is an inevitable time jump DLC.

To name a few on the IS side...

Raptor
Men-Shen
Blackhawk KU
Dragon Fire
Hauptmann
Komodo
Gunslinger

All push the envelope and expand the possibilities of what you can do. As to the question "Why not?", simply because there is limited time and resources which would be better spent on bringing some type of unique gameplay features or doing something that can't already be done.

[pbiggz]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2021 - 12:16 PM, said:

There is plenty of much more interesting things to add, that would actually be unique, and most things can be brought in to MW5 once there is an inevitable time jump DLC.

To name a few on the IS side...

Raptor
Men-Shen
Blackhawk KU
Dragon Fire
Hauptmann
Komodo
Gunslinger

All push the envelope and expand the possibilities of what you can do. As to the question "Why not?", simply because there is limited time and resources which would be better spent on bringing some type of unique gameplay features or doing something that can't already be done.

At this point there basically isn't any variant that doesn't fill a niche another mech could also fill. There's really alot of mechs in this game, so while the crusader isn't my favourite, I don't see why it couldn't be in the game. Maybe there are more interesting mechs to put in the game but everyone should get their turn to have their pet jank in the game.

That said, and this is a purely academic thought, I've kind of felt for a long time that MWO suffers because we have so many variants in the game. We ought to have had many fewer variants of mechs, but more mechs period to compensate. The best example of this of course would be the annihilator-fafnir interplay, wherein similar builds are possible on both mechs, only, if you don't want to die, you just take the annihilator every time, because the fafnir is just worse. If we'd had fewer variants of both mechs, they'd have both occupied different niches, with the annihilator boating numerous smaller weapons and the fafnir boating fewer, larger ones, and that can be played out again and again, across all weight classes.

When the ideal meta involves fast, tanky 65 tonners with 7 medium pulse lasers, it turns out, you can just pick whichever 65 tonner has the highest hardpoints and the best quirks and nothing else matters, so this is one of those paradoxical situations where giving players more choices actually gave them less choices.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2021 - 12:16 PM, said:

There is plenty of much more interesting things to add, that would actually be unique, and most things can be brought in to MW5 once there is an inevitable time jump DLC.

To name a few on the IS side...

Raptor
Men-Shen
Blackhawk KU
Dragon Fire
Hauptmann
Komodo
Gunslinger

All push the envelope and expand the possibilities of what you can do. As to the question "Why not?", simply because there is limited time and resources which would be better spent on bringing some type of unique gameplay features or doing something that can't already be done.

and I’d like to see those added too. (Well… except maybe the Komodo, it’s as ugly as they get.)

But Along with the wasp and stinger, the Crusader is the last of the unseen. The lawsuit BS with Harmony Gold scrubbed any effort to get them into the game, but that’s over now. Old timers would buy that stuff up, as would newer players if the mechs are properly quirked and hit box’d.

The wasp and stinger would be purchased as a single pack (since they’re so similar) with 3 variants each, the crusader is a pack, and you round out the list with another medium from the era like a whitworth, Clint, Hermès, or starslayer (since adding the hatchetman is pointless if no melee exists) and another assault like the longbow or even a fan favorite like the Bull Shark.

[East Indy]

Dang, so jaded!

Some players like to associate with specific 'Mechs, and don't mind the hardpoint overlap. The Liao variant is fun, and the right flavor quirks could make it a legitimate choice. A 'Mech-specific warhorn would be a fun vanity perk, as well.

Together with the Stinger and Wasp? I'd spring for the last of the Unseen.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 05 July 2021 - 12:32 PM, said:

At this point there basically isn't any variant that doesn't fill a niche another mech could also fill. There's really alot of mechs in this game, so while the crusader isn't my favourite, I don't see why it couldn't be in the game. Maybe there are more interesting mechs to put in the game but everyone should get their turn to have their pet jank in the game.

That said, and this is a purely academic thought, I've kind of felt for a long time that MWO suffers because we have so many variants in the game. We ought to have had many fewer variants of mechs, but more mechs period to compensate. The best example of this of course would be the annihilator-fafnir interplay, wherein similar builds are possible on both mechs, only, if you don't want to die, you just take the annihilator every time, because the fafnir is just worse. If we'd had fewer variants of both mechs, they'd have both occupied different niches, with the annihilator boating numerous smaller weapons and the fafnir boating fewer, larger ones, and that can be played out again and again, across all weight classes.

When the ideal meta involves fast, tanky 65 tonners with 7 medium pulse lasers, it turns out, you can just pick whichever 65 tonner has the highest hardpoints and the best quirks and nothing else matters, so this is one of those paradoxical situations where giving players more choices actually gave them less choices.

Well, Komodo has 11 E Hardpoints and ECM and JJ on an IS medium. Anything in game now?
Raptor is Omni and has 11 E hardpoints on a light at 113 kph. Anything in game now?
Blackhawk KU, 12E hardpoints and JJ on an IS heavy. Anything in game now?
Gunslinger has JJ and ECM on an 85 ton IS mech, dual arm ballistics, energy torso. Anything in game now?
Men-Shen is MASC and ECM capable and Omni, on an IS 55 tonner. Anything in game now?
Hauptmann is a slow IS Blood Asp basically.
Dragon Fire is a 75 ton ECM capable mech with dual large ballistic-in-arm capability and a Ballistic/Energy focus.

There is plenty there...

Clan side is a bit harder and would require active quirk focusing to make mechs like the Kingfisher(durability plus agility and high energy torso mounts)/Turkina(generous JJ quirks and noticeable mobility increase over Dire) unique, but then there is also the Stone Rhino, the Black Python, and Locust IIC that would make good additions to the lineup.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 July 2021 - 03:09 PM.

[Lanzman]

ScrapIron Prime, on 05 July 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

The wasp and stinger would be purchased as a single pack (since they’re so similar) with 3 variants each . . .

Wasp, Stinger, and Valkyrie as a three-fer, three variants each.

[MyriadDigits]

Lockheed_, on 05 July 2021 - 05:00 PM, said:

why does it have a Trebuchet head, Archer side torsos as shoulders and Archer legs and arms and Phoenix Hawk center and side torsos?

because its a kitbash

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:

Well, Komodo has 11 E Hardpoints and ECM and JJ on an IS medium. Anything in game now?
Raptor is Omni and has 11 E hardpoints on a light at 113 kph. Anything in game now?
Blackhawk KU, 12E hardpoints and JJ on an IS heavy. Anything in game now?
Gunslinger has JJ and ECM on an 85 ton IS mech, dual arm ballistics, energy torso. Anything in game now?
Men-Shen is MASC and ECM capable and Omni, on an IS 55 tonner. Anything in game now?
Hauptmann is a slow IS Blood Asp basically.
Dragon Fire is a 75 ton ECM capable mech with dual large ballistic-in-arm capability and a Ballistic/Energy focus.

There is plenty there...

Clan side is a bit harder and would require active quirk focusing to make mechs like the Kingfisher(durability plus agility and high energy torso mounts)/Turkina(generous JJ quirks and noticeable mobility increase over Dire) unique, but then there is also the Stone Rhino, the Black Python, and Locust IIC that would make good additions to the lineup.

The Komodo can't do a single solitary thing with those eleven energy hardpoints except medium laser spam. Inner Sphere non-PPC energy weaponry [redacted] - IS small laser boats are terrible, and the thing doesn't have the tonnage to do much of anything except its base ML spam configuration. Its variants are also either strictly worse (trade from 11 energy down to seven) or out-of-timeline/No-Tech-Good (C3 tombuggery). Piranha would have to invent every variant past the first two, and again - Inner Sphere lightweight energy boats don't work. The Sphere doesn't have the energy weapons to make that happen, not without access to micro lasers or medium lasers that don't blow.

The Raptor would require Piranha to admit that OmniMech build restrictions aren't anything but an arbitrary screwjob to tabletop fits that don't just-so-happen to align with MWO's game style and rejigger balance to make Omni technology measure up evenly with BattleMechs. Not gonna happen. And even if it did? The Raptor is a Mist Lynx that can't jump and is stuck with weight-devouring standard armor it can't get rid of, and its eleven energy hardpoints don't matter because it has no micro lasers to boat. Again - the Inner Sphere cannot make used of massed energy hardpoints the way Clan machines do because they don't have the lightweight, high-damage lasers needed to make it effective. Literally the only laser the Raptor could try and boat would be smalls, and who cares if it has eleven small lasers? Nobody cares about small laser Piranha, either, and Clan smalls actually deal damage.

The Black Hawk-KU is a sixty-ton 'Mech (a weight point no one likes) with Standard armor and structure (which means it's very poorly weight optimized) with five fixed jump jets (i.e. four more jump jets than anyone wants), leabing it with exactly seventeen tons of space to try and carry bulky, heavy Inner Sphere weapons. That's equivalent to a Linebacker, except the KU is slower, more poorly armored, beset with Omni problems, and also every last single implementable variant except the Prime and the Echo, i.e. The Second Prime, is absolute hot dog *****. Yes, the BHKU could boat a bunch of Inner Sphere lasers. So what? Who cares? Nobody's afraid of Sphere laser boats, people are afraid of Sphere pinpoint punch damage from their superior ballistics and various PPCs and their massed-missile-******* brawlers.

The Gunslinger has nigh-perfect energy hardpoints, yeah. Its chassis-defining ballistics are in huge, easily blasted off arms, and the 'Mech itself looks like a One Piece character. Big barrel-chested top-heavy dingus with tiny little feets. Would it be good? Certainly, if it wasn't a hitbox nightmare. I have the feeling it'd be a hitbox nightmare, and also it's another Big Dual Dakka Sphere Assault 'Mech. Don't we, like...have those in plenty? A lot of them, in fact? Sure this one has ECM. So does the Fatnir, which dakkas better than this guy. Still a mostly viable choice, but man. It's just boring.

The Men Shen would be quite an interesting addition, I'll admit. Again though, it would require Piranha to deal with Inner Sphere OmniTech and thus admit that balancing Clan gear through fixed frame components on OmniMechs is a nonthing. No way in hell Piranha bothers with that, not when this game is only just barely keeping its head above water. That said? A fast, ECM-capable medium with M.A.S.C. to maneuver with and a variety of interesting, legitimate variants means you actually have a point with this thing. Y'know, if Sphere Omnis weren't a "When pigs fly in Hell" dealio, at least.

The Hauptmann would be hilarious mostly because of its Laser Stogie, but as Piranha is terrible at doing cool geo like that we wouldn't get a Laser Stogie, and thus the whole 'Mech is invalid. Nevertheless. The Hauptmann is a STD-engine OmniMech hampered by a distinct lack of weight-saving gear. Yes, that leaves it tons of room to boat bulky ****, but does it have the weight? So far as I can tell it's got about thirty, thirty-fiveish tons of pod space and nowhere to stick those outrageously bulky IS DHS it'd need. "A slow, poorly-cooled and underarmed IS Blood Asp" feels like a bad sell - and again, we have the Sphere OmniTech issue to contend with first.

The Dragon Fire looks like a colossal Cicada. Srsly - look at it. The only art on Sarna for it is a seventy-five ton Cicada with ballistics instead of lasers. Sure, it's a multi-ballistic IS heavy with ECM. All the timeline variants are basically identical though, and the ONLY thing this thing has going for it is the ECM and the possibility of Marauder-esque hitboxes.

Most of these aren't even slightly possible due to Piranha not being willing to re-tackle Omni build rules to account for Inner Sphere OmniTech. The Clan options, in short:

Kingfisher: For when you want your Summoner to waste ninety tons instead of seventy.
Turkina: You ever wanted a Dire Whale, but Krab-shaped and almost no hardpoints? Here ya go!
Stone Rhino: i.e. Strictly Worse Marauder IIC
Black Python: Want to instantly obsolete all other Clan heavyweight energy 'Mechs with superior hitboxes, advantaegous BattleMech construction rules, and superlative weapon mounts? There's a Black Python for that.
Locust IIC: i.e. Piranha Problems 2.0

The case for the Crusader is no worse than the case for most of these, and significantly better than the case for any Sphere OmniMech. Why not let people have their nostalgia, eh? Nostalgia's the only thing keeping this game going.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 06 July 2021 - 10:06 PM.
vulgar language

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

The Komodo can't do a single solitary thing with those eleven energy hardpoints except medium laser spam. Inner Sphere non-PPC energy weaponry [redacted] - IS small laser boats are terrible, and the thing doesn't have the tonnage to do much of anything except its base ML spam configuration. Its variants are also either strictly worse (trade from 11 energy down to seven) or out-of-timeline/No-Tech-Good (C3 tombuggery). Piranha would have to invent every variant past the first two, and again - Inner Sphere lightweight energy boats don't work. The Sphere doesn't have the energy weapons to make that happen, not without access to micro lasers or medium lasers that don't blow.

The Raptor would require Piranha to admit that OmniMech build restrictions aren't anything but an arbitrary screwjob to tabletop fits that don't just-so-happen to align with MWO's game style and rejigger balance to make Omni technology measure up evenly with BattleMechs. Not gonna happen. And even if it did? The Raptor is a Mist Lynx that can't jump and is stuck with weight-devouring standard armor it can't get rid of, and its eleven energy hardpoints don't matter because it has no micro lasers to boat. Again - the Inner Sphere cannot make used of massed energy hardpoints the way Clan machines do because they don't have the lightweight, high-damage lasers needed to make it effective. Literally the only laser the Raptor could try and boat would be smalls, and who cares if it has eleven small lasers? Nobody cares about small laser Piranha, either, and Clan smalls actually deal damage.

The Black Hawk-KU is a sixty-ton 'Mech (a weight point no one likes) with Standard armor and structure (which means it's very poorly weight optimized) with five fixed jump jets (i.e. four more jump jets than anyone wants), leabing it with exactly seventeen tons of space to try and carry bulky, heavy Inner Sphere weapons. That's equivalent to a Linebacker, except the KU is slower, more poorly armored, beset with Omni problems, and also every last single implementable variant except the Prime and the Echo, i.e. The Second Prime, is absolute hot dog *****. Yes, the BHKU could boat a bunch of Inner Sphere lasers. So what? Who cares? Nobody's afraid of Sphere laser boats, people are afraid of Sphere pinpoint punch damage from their superior ballistics and various PPCs and their massed-missile-******* brawlers.

The Gunslinger has nigh-perfect energy hardpoints, yeah. Its chassis-defining ballistics are in huge, easily blasted off arms, and the 'Mech itself looks like a One Piece character. Big barrel-chested top-heavy dingus with tiny little feets. Would it be good? Certainly, if it wasn't a hitbox nightmare. I have the feeling it'd be a hitbox nightmare, and also it's another Big Dual Dakka Sphere Assault 'Mech. Don't we, like...have those in plenty? A lot of them, in fact? Sure this one has ECM. So does the Fatnir, which dakkas better than this guy. Still a mostly viable choice, but man. It's just boring.

The Men Shen would be quite an interesting addition, I'll admit. Again though, it would require Piranha to deal with Inner Sphere OmniTech and thus admit that balancing Clan gear through fixed frame components on OmniMechs is a nonthing. No way in hell Piranha bothers with that, not when this game is only just barely keeping its head above water. That said? A fast, ECM-capable medium with M.A.S.C. to maneuver with and a variety of interesting, legitimate variants means you actually have a point with this thing. Y'know, if Sphere Omnis weren't a "When pigs fly in Hell" dealio, at least.

The Hauptmann would be hilarious mostly because of its Laser Stogie, but as Piranha is terrible at doing cool geo like that we wouldn't get a Laser Stogie, and thus the whole 'Mech is invalid. Nevertheless. The Hauptmann is a STD-engine OmniMech hampered by a distinct lack of weight-saving gear. Yes, that leaves it tons of room to boat bulky ****, but does it have the weight? So far as I can tell it's got about thirty, thirty-fiveish tons of pod space and nowhere to stick those outrageously bulky IS DHS it'd need. "A slow, poorly-cooled and underarmed IS Blood Asp" feels like a bad sell - and again, we have the Sphere OmniTech issue to contend with first.

The Dragon Fire looks like a colossal Cicada. Srsly - look at it. The only art on Sarna for it is a seventy-five ton Cicada with ballistics instead of lasers. Sure, it's a multi-ballistic IS heavy with ECM. All the timeline variants are basically identical though, and the ONLY thing this thing has going for it is the ECM and the possibility of Marauder-esque hitboxes.

Most of these aren't even slightly possible due to Piranha not being willing to re-tackle Omni build rules to account for Inner Sphere OmniTech. The Clan options, in short:

Kingfisher: For when you want your Summoner to waste ninety tons instead of seventy.
Turkina: You ever wanted a Dire Whale, but Krab-shaped and almost no hardpoints? Here ya go!
Stone Rhino: i.e. Strictly Worse Marauder IIC
Black Python: Want to instantly obsolete all other Clan heavyweight energy 'Mechs with superior hitboxes, advantaegous BattleMech construction rules, and superlative weapon mounts? There's a Black Python for that.
Locust IIC: i.e. Piranha Problems 2.0

The case for the Crusader is no worse than the case for most of these, and significantly better than the case for any Sphere OmniMech. Why not let people have their nostalgia, eh? Nostalgia's the only thing keeping this game going.

I really dont subscribe to the "this mech is bad dont add it" school anymore.

PGI of today seems far more flexible than PGI of yesteryear, and cauldron has already demonstrated willingness (through talk and action) to roll back nerfs or even provide actual buffs to things that used to not perform.

Take for example the Turkina. With agility buffs, and jumpjet quirks, that could actually fill a unique niche, as a slow clan gunboat with major UPs. The Hauptmann could easily perform if it's given quirks to compensate for its locked engine. The 11 energy komodo would be legitimately scary with pulse lasers, so im not sure where you're coming from with this whole "PPCs only" business, that's kinda off mark, but I digress.

I would welcome any of the mechs listed there, just we have to accept that most of what they can do can already be done to a certain extend on at least one of the hundreds of existing variants of mechs we have.

I just don't think its worth our time to quibble about this anymore. Let everyone have their turn to have their pet jank. The crusader might not be the most unique mech ever asked for but it is one of the unseen/reseen/reunseen/rereseen and holds a special place in some crusty old nerds' hearts. Who am I to say they cant have it?

Thats not to say some mechs arent stupid or useless, just in this case, why not the crusader? idk doesn't seem like something we should waste our energy pushing back against when there are kids who log in here to tell us groups and snipers should be permabanned so they die less. There are definitely more toxic things for us to spend our energy pushing back on.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 06 July 2021 - 10:13 PM.
quote cleanup

[MyriadDigits]

EDIT: No idea why formatting went and filled its drawers after I clicked post but I don't care enough to fix it.

<p>

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

</p>
<p>The <em>Komodo </em>can't do a single solitary thing with those eleven energy hardpoints except medium laser spam. Inner Sphere non-PPC energy weaponry [redacted] - IS small laser boats are terrible, and the thing doesn't have the tonnage to do much of anything except its base ML spam configuration. Its variants are also either strictly worse (trade from 11 energy down to seven) or out-of-timeline/No-Tech-Good (C3 tombuggery). Piranha would have to invent every variant past the first two, and again - Inner Sphere lightweight energy boats <em>don't work. </em>The Sphere doesn't have the energy weapons to make that happen, not without access to micro lasers or medium lasers that don't blow.</p>
<p>

<br />
<br />
My FS9 and PXH would love to talk with you about how IS lightweight energy boats don't work. Besides, even <em>before </em>Cauldron went and buffed basically every IS laser weapon, IS MPL was already very good, and Komodo could do 6MPL 5ERSML with no trouble at all. C3s could be very simply replaced with Targeting Computers without rendering the stock loads invalid, and any variants that seem underpowered due to (lack of) hardpoints could just get quirks to compensate. Even throw in some flavor quirks to cover MWO's lack of C3s.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

</p>
<p>The <em>Raptor </em>would require Piranha to admit that OmniMech build restrictions aren't anything but an arbitrary screwjob to tabletop fits that don't just-so-happen to align with MWO's game style and rejigger balance to make Omni technology measure up evenly with BattleMechs. Not gonna happen. And even if it did? The Raptor is a Mist Lynx that can't jump and is stuck with weight-devouring standard armor it can't get rid of, and its eleven energy hardpoints don't matter because it has no micro lasers to boat. Again - the Inner Sphere <em>cannot </em>make used of massed energy hardpoints the way Clan machines do because they don't have the lightweight, high-damage lasers needed to make it effective. Literally the only laser the Raptor could try and boat would be smalls, and who cares if it has eleven small lasers? Nobody cares about small laser Piranha, either, and Clan smalls actually deal damage.</p>
<p>

</p>
<p> </p>
<p>6ML 5ERSML, or it could sacrifice 1 or 2 energy hardpoints for JJs from the RTX1-OF if it really wanted them. It'd also have decent options for SRM shenanigans. Quirks are a thing as well.<br />
<br />
Also I don't know why you think Raptor would mean PGI would need to do anything with current Omni implementation (outside of of allowing IS Omnis I guess), as it has a good size and speed to not be massively hindered by Omni limitations. The Men Shen as well could also work, as even you stated.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

</p>
<p>The <em>Hauptmann </em>would be hilarious mostly because of its Laser Stogie, but as Piranha is terrible at doing cool geo like that we wouldn't get a Laser Stogie, and thus the whole 'Mech is invalid. Nevertheless. The Hauptmann is a STD-engine OmniMech hampered by a distinct lack of weight-saving gear. Yes, that leaves it tons of room to boat bulky ****, but does it have the weight? So far as I can tell it's got about thirty, thirty-fiveish tons of pod space and nowhere to stick those outrageously bulky IS DHS it'd need. &quot;A slow, poorly-cooled and underarmed IS Blood Asp&quot; feels like a bad sell - and again, we have the Sphere OmniTech issue to contend with first.</p>
<p>

</p>
<p> </p>
<p>43 tons of pod space (actually 43.5 with weightless CASE), which is more than plenty to do Dual Heavy Gauss on those god tier shoulder mounts.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

</p>
<p><em>Stone Rhino: </em>i.e. Strictly Worse Marauder IIC</p>
<p>

</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Did you know Stone Rhino is on MechDB? Yeah. Even if it might have **** geo it packs more gun than literally anything else in the game. Sure this is only one variant, but if you're gonna argue against the Stone Rhino, saying its a worse MADIIC is the wrong way to go about it.<br />
</p>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_ee757571_SR-4 (XL300 1UAC20 2UAC10 3UAC5)</div>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_dbc6201e_SR-4 (XL300 2AC20 2AC10 1AC5)</div>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_1a48b305_SR-4 (XL300 (2AC10 4AC5)</div>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_102a7d82_SR-4 (XL300 2UAC10 4UAC5)</div>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_e131ef20_SR-4 (XL285 (2LB20 3LB10)</div>
<div>https://mech.nav-alpha.com/#_bea4e83b_SR-4 (XL300 1LB20 4LB10)</div>

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 06 July 2021 - 10:13 PM.
quote cleanup

[Kanil]

pbiggz, on 06 July 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

I really dont subscribe to the "this mech is bad dont add it" school anymore.

'mechs have to sell well enough for PGI to turn a profit on them, and a bad 'mech isn't going to sell as well as a good one.

Take a look at the Black Hawk KU for example, do you really think there's enough people wanting to drive a hardlocked suicide box for PGI to recoup the money they spend on creating the thing in the first place? Seriously, just because there isn't "anything in game now" like it doesn't mean that it's something anyone is clamoring to use.

Of course, the Crusader isn't that bad, and it's got some nostalgia going for it, but it is pretty mediocre. I quite like the 'mech, and would be happy to see it in game (and especially in MW5), but I don't plan on buying it just so it can sit in my hangars unused... and if I'm not willing to buy it, I probably shouldn't be asking for it.

I think the only thing PGI can currently offer that I'd be tempted by is Clan BattleMech power creep, so... gib Phoenix Hawk IIC?

[FinnMcKool]

If Novakain wants it,


I cant think of a better reason to have any Mech.

[1453 R]

Kanil, on 06 July 2021 - 12:52 PM, said:

'mechs have to sell well enough for PGI to turn a profit on them, and a bad 'mech isn't going to sell as well as a good one.

Take a look at the Black Hawk KU for example, do you really think there's enough people wanting to drive a hardlocked suicide box for PGI to recoup the money they spend on creating the thing in the first place? Seriously, just because there isn't "anything in game now" like it doesn't mean that it's something anyone is clamoring to use.

Of course, the Crusader isn't that bad, and it's got some nostalgia going for it, but it is pretty mediocre. I quite like the 'mech, and would be happy to see it in game (and especially in MW5), but I don't plan on buying it just so it can sit in my hangars unused... and if I'm not willing to buy it, I probably shouldn't be asking for it.

I think the only thing PGI can currently offer that I'd be tempted by is Clan BattleMech power creep, so... gib Phoenix Hawk IIC?

Isn't this the truth and a half?

Everybody has all the low-tier nostalgia shitmechs they could ever want, for the most part. The Crusader is the last of the Unseen (other than the absolutely awful Wasp/Stinger, anyways), but it's also kinda bad. It's hard enough for Piranha to justify charging full-game-on-Steam prices for three 'Mechs and a small handful of inconsequential cockpit swag as it is. I've bought exactly one 'Mech pack since I got back and I still kinda feel bad even for that.

If Piranha sells nostalgic shitmechs? People screech and caterwaul about how terrible they are and how DARE Piranha charge people actual dollars for this garbage, yadda yadda yap.

If Piranha sells blatant power spikes like the Black Python? People screech and caterwaul about how overpowered they are and how DARE Piranha force people to pay to win this way, yadda yadda yap.

Let people have their Crusaders. The damned thing will probably cover its own cost just for being The Last Of The (worthwhile) Unseen, and at least nobody will complain about Crusaders being overpowered. Or at least, nobody credible will complain about it.

[FLG 01]

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 02:03 PM, said:

(other than the absolutely awful Wasp/Stinger, anyways)

The WSP-1W comes with JJ, six energy HP, and a 170 engine (applying the usual multiplier for lights).

That is not terrible at all, especially as we do have not JJ-capable 20t Mech. In fact, that's quite some worthwile novelty.

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

The Dragon Fire looks like a colossal Cicada. Srsly - look at it. The only art on Sarna for it is a seventy-five ton Cicada with ballistics instead of lasers. Sure, it's a multi-ballistic IS heavy with ECM. All the timeline variants are basically identical though, and the ONLY thing this thing has going for it is the ECM and the possibility of Marauder-esque hitboxes.

ECM, Marauder-hitboxes and ballistics in the arms with the option to take AC/20s. I would do that. I miss that.

And it does not look like a Cicada. One has a square, squat, boxy torso on straight legs with no arms or barrels sticking out of it; the other an elongated, round torso with digitigrade legs, and long barrels for arms.

And seeing what fanart did with it...



Yeah, I want it.

Edited by FLG 01, 06 July 2021 - 03:39 PM.