145 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

The point is that a case could be made both for and against any possible new 'Mech chassis. People want trash-tier nostalgia, people want powercreepy newtech chassis. People want weird **** nobody who hasn't been in this setting for twenty years even knows about (can you believe there's people who actually pressed to have the FREAKING BATTLE COBRA introduced?). Whatever people want, there will be instant raging nerdwar over it.

For instance? I want the Grendel. I want the Grendel real bad. A forty-five tonner with seven jets moving 120 before Tweak with roughly 13 tons of pod space for light, high-efficiency Clan weaponry? Hnnngh yes please. It's a terrible 'Mech though, absolute garbo dungheap design by comp standards. Would I get me some Grendels anyways? Absolutely. Would other people tell me to get bent and die in a basement somewhere for asking for an obscure Clan fastie design over their Last Of The Unseen™ chonkyboi? Absolutely.

Or the Hellion! Hnngh, Hellion. Thirty tonner moving 120 klicks before M.A.S.C., with eleven and a half tons of usable pod space. Dead gods, yes please. This little turdburglar would redefine "Light 'Mech Problems". Nobody gives a **** about Piranhas when you could have an ECM-capable M.A.S.C.-capable light 'Mech with four SRM-6s, four heavy small lasers, and just enough ammo to make your buttocks asplode running around delivering Jenner IIC levels of git-rekt with far better hitboxes, ECM, and much more versatile loadouts. Hell, if we ever get AP Gauss the Echo-variant Hellion becomes the third 'Mech in all of MWO to mount M.A.S.C., ECM, and jump jets in the same design, after the Shadow Cat and the new Thunderbolt variant. Gawd the Hellion would be amazing, even better than the Arctic Cheetah back when the Arctic Cheetah was good.

Would people cremate me alive for suggesting we get such an outstandingly cool and efficacious Clan light 'Mech over The Last Of The Unseen™? You betcha they would.

Do I want Crusaders? Not even slightly. I could argue all day for why they're a bad idea. But in the end, everybody could argue that for everything. None of us are gonna get what we want, so we may as well let the 'Mech Dads have their final little trophy for the wall. If they're willing to buy it, go ahead and let Piranha sell it to 'em.

[Verilligo]

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

The Komodo can't do a single solitary thing with those eleven energy hardpoints except medium laser spam. Inner Sphere non-PPC energy weaponry [redacted] - IS small laser boats are terrible, and the thing doesn't have the tonnage to do much of anything except its base ML spam configuration. Its variants are also either strictly worse (trade from 11 energy down to seven) or out-of-timeline/No-Tech-Good (C3 tombuggery). Piranha would have to invent every variant past the first two, and again - Inner Sphere lightweight energy boats don't work. The Sphere doesn't have the energy weapons to make that happen, not without access to micro lasers or medium lasers that don't blow.

The Raptor would require Piranha to admit that OmniMech build restrictions aren't anything but an arbitrary screwjob to tabletop fits that don't just-so-happen to align with MWO's game style and rejigger balance to make Omni technology measure up evenly with BattleMechs. Not gonna happen. And even if it did? The Raptor is a Mist Lynx that can't jump and is stuck with weight-devouring standard armor it can't get rid of, and its eleven energy hardpoints don't matter because it has no micro lasers to boat. Again - the Inner Sphere cannot make used of massed energy hardpoints the way Clan machines do because they don't have the lightweight, high-damage lasers needed to make it effective. Literally the only laser the Raptor could try and boat would be smalls, and who cares if it has eleven small lasers? Nobody cares about small laser Piranha, either, and Clan smalls actually deal damage.

The Black Hawk-KU is a sixty-ton 'Mech (a weight point no one likes) with Standard armor and structure (which means it's very poorly weight optimized) with five fixed jump jets (i.e. four more jump jets than anyone wants), leabing it with exactly seventeen tons of space to try and carry bulky, heavy Inner Sphere weapons. That's equivalent to a Linebacker, except the KU is slower, more poorly armored, beset with Omni problems, and also every last single implementable variant except the Prime and the Echo, i.e. The Second Prime, is absolute hot dog *****. Yes, the BHKU could boat a bunch of Inner Sphere lasers. So what? Who cares? Nobody's afraid of Sphere laser boats, people are afraid of Sphere pinpoint punch damage from their superior ballistics and various PPCs and their massed-missile-******* brawlers.

For the record, IS lasers are honestly pretty good. 11 SLs is basically 40 damage pinpoint. The 8 SPL Firestarter seems to be a genuinely good build at the moment, too. Before the Cauldron fixes to smaller lasers, you'd have a point, but the recent buffs have made the weapons good. They just need large enough numbers massed in order to matter. These hardpoint-heavy designs would meet that critical mass. With regards to JJs... that's not exactly true. You need enough JJs to jump about 21-25m in order to reach most relevant vantage points in the game. For many mechs that's 2-4 JJs.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 06 July 2021 - 10:14 PM.
quote cleanup

[Valdarion Silarius]

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

Stone Rhino: i.e. Strictly Worse Marauder IIC

Nah, friend. Having a 100 Jump Jet monster besides the new Direwhale variant with JJ's would be an interesting addition to the game. Besides being another 100 ton clan battlemech monster in it's weight class, since I've given up hope on the Direwolf and the Kodiak I would hope the Stone Rhino would get decent hitboxes depending on the geometry of the mech.

Let's hope that PGI will still add the Firemoth and the Grendel sometime in the future.

[Ekson Valdez]

While this talk about other mechs and IS omnis is quite intriguing, it's only remotely connected with the original topic of the Crusader.
Please open a new discussion!

[Storming Angel]

Who cares, just add the mechs in. Not sure why we have people whinging about them not being viable. They can make the viable by changing up the hard points a bit not exactly going to be a huge problem, unless the vast majority want them in a certain way.

Theres only soo much you can do with the limited gameplay we have atm, unless you add in new weapons, new armour, newer maps with interesting effects etc.

[FupDup]

Storming Angel, on 06 July 2021 - 11:08 PM, said:

Who cares, just add the mechs in. Not sure why we have people whinging about them not being viable. They can make the viable by changing up the hard points a bit not exactly going to be a huge problem, unless the vast majority want them in a certain way.

Theres only soo much you can do with the limited gameplay we have atm, unless you add in new weapons, new armour, newer maps with interesting effects etc.

PGI doesn't change up the hardpoints of canon mechs. They can inflate hardpoints, but that is dependent on what the base unit comes with and they'll never go over a certain quantity (i.e. they rarely give an IS mech more than 7-8 hardpoints total).

[Storming Angel]

FupDup, on 07 July 2021 - 03:04 AM, said:

PGI doesn't change up the hardpoints of canon mechs. They can inflate hardpoints, but that is dependent on what the base unit comes with and they'll never go over a certain quantity (i.e. they rarely give an IS mech more than 7-8 hardpoints total).

But isn't increasing the number of hardpoints the same thing as changing them? Regardless that wasn't the point anyways, the point is there is a lack of equipment too allow for more varied gameplay which, won't be implemented since they don't even have a programmer to do that (not even sure how they managed to accomplish that, but thats amazing too be fair).

So people saying they won't be viable doesn't matter since the meta won't change, just you will see new models too shoot at.

[Escef]

Storming Angel, on 07 July 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

But isn't increasing the number of hardpoints the same thing as changing them?

Hardpoints don't exist in table top Battletech. They were invented for either MechWarrior4 or MechCommander 2 as a balancing mechanic. The closest thing there is to them in table top are the rules concerning how the difficulty in modifying a mech goes up as you install weapons and equipment of different tonnages, crit slots, and types. For example, swapping out an SRM4 for an LRM5 is comparatively easy because the they are both 2 ton, 1 crit, missile weapons; while swapping an LRM20 and its 2 ton ammo bin for an AC10 is a bit trickier because while you are looking at identical tonnage and crit slots, you still have to contend with installing a ballistic where there used to be a missile launcher (coolant lines will need to be completely rerouted for the new weapon's needs, you need to build an ejection port for the spent shell casings, and you might need to put some custom code into the fire control system).

Now, if you want to balance mechs by saying each weapon it mounts converts into a hardpoint of the corresponding weapon type that's fine. But once you make that change, hardpoint inflation for some mechs is pretty much a must. I mean, why would anyone use a Catapult A1 over the C1 elsewise? (Unless you want to start getting into the idea of sized hardpoints, but at this point you have to start making some game design decisions about what kind of and how much customization you want to enable.)

[Gagis]

FupDup, on 07 July 2021 - 03:04 AM, said:

PGI doesn't change up the hardpoints of canon mechs. They can inflate hardpoints, but that is dependent on what the base unit comes with and they'll never go over a certain quantity (i.e. they rarely give an IS mech more than 7-8 hardpoints total).

False. Every mech that has rear-facing weapons has had them converted to front-facing and there's also a few mechs that actually have weapons in the legs and those have been converted to weapons in side torsos for MWO.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Gagis, on 07 July 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:

False. Every mech that has rear-facing weapons has had them converted to front-facing and there's also a few mechs that actually have weapons in the legs and those have been converted to weapons in side torsos for MWO.

but, but...
I want an iconic Crusader, with missiles from the legs. oh, and a wall of missiles coming from the arms.
ideally, another wall of missiles from the torsi.
yeah - talking mrms here.

quirks:
+70% missile spread
-80% heat
+100% ammo.
*dreaming of a white christmas. oh, and of missile-walls that hit everybody and his dog^^

and just before anybody picks this up:
yes, ofc I'm totally serious about this, and it's perfectly balanced. don't question it

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 07 July 2021 - 06:40 AM.

[pbiggz]

Escef, on 07 July 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

Hardpoints don't exist in table top Battletech. They were invented for either MechWarrior4 or MechCommander 2 as a balancing mechanic. The closest thing there is to them in table top are the rules concerning how the difficulty in modifying a mech goes up as you install weapons and equipment of different tonnages, crit slots, and types. For example, swapping out an SRM4 for an LRM5 is comparatively easy because the they are both 2 ton, 1 crit, missile weapons; while swapping an LRM20 and its 2 ton ammo bin for an AC10 is a bit trickier because while you are looking at identical tonnage and crit slots, you still have to contend with installing a ballistic where there used to be a missile launcher (coolant lines will need to be completely rerouted for the new weapon's needs, you need to build an ejection port for the spent shell casings, and you might need to put some custom code into the fire control system).

Now, if you want to balance mechs by saying each weapon it mounts converts into a hardpoint of the corresponding weapon type that's fine. But once you make that change, hardpoint inflation for some mechs is pretty much a must. I mean, why would anyone use a Catapult A1 over the C1 elsewise? (Unless you want to start getting into the idea of sized hardpoints, but at this point you have to start making some game design decisions about what kind of and how much customization you want to enable.)

Sized hardpoints are a legitimate answer to many of our woes, however, that's a can of worms that is not easy to open, and will nerf alot of mechs, meaning of course the reaction from some will be just a wall of senseless shrieking, so I think its unlikely we'd ever see it.

If it was my choice i'd do it in a second, though it'd probably take a month or two to run through all the variants we have and size the hardpoints.

[Escef]

pbiggz, on 07 July 2021 - 07:22 AM, said:

Sized hardpoints are a legitimate answer to many of our woes,...

I disagree, but the matter is academic at this point. The proverbial ship has sailed.

[Worm Seraphin]

How did this one get missed?
One of my favorite tabletop mechs.

[Novakaine]

FinnMcKool, on 06 July 2021 - 01:23 PM, said:

If Novakain wants it,


I cant think of a better reason to have any Mech.

You are wise and most kind being of great charm and mirth.

1453 R, on 06 July 2021 - 03:48 PM, said:

The point is that a case could be made both for and against any possible new 'Mech chassis. People want trash-tier nostalgia, people want powercreepy newtech chassis. People want weird **** nobody who hasn't been in this setting for twenty years even knows about (can you believe there's people who actually pressed to have the FREAKING BATTLE COBRA introduced?). Whatever people want, there will be instant raging nerdwar over it.

For instance? I want the Grendel. I want the Grendel real bad. A forty-five tonner with seven jets moving 120 before Tweak with roughly 13 tons of pod space for light, high-efficiency Clan weaponry? Hnnngh yes please. It's a terrible 'Mech though, absolute garbo dungheap design by comp standards. Would I get me some Grendels anyways? Absolutely. Would other people tell me to get bent and die in a basement somewhere for asking for an obscure Clan fastie design over their Last Of The Unseen™ chonkyboi? Absolutely.

Or the Hellion! Hnngh, Hellion. Thirty tonner moving 120 klicks before M.A.S.C., with eleven and a half tons of usable pod space. Dead gods, yes please. This little turdburglar would redefine "Light 'Mech Problems". Nobody gives a **** about Piranhas when you could have an ECM-capable M.A.S.C.-capable light 'Mech with four SRM-6s, four heavy small lasers, and just enough ammo to make your buttocks asplode running around delivering Jenner IIC levels of git-rekt with far better hitboxes, ECM, and much more versatile loadouts. Hell, if we ever get AP Gauss the Echo-variant Hellion becomes the third 'Mech in all of MWO to mount M.A.S.C., ECM, and jump jets in the same design, after the Shadow Cat and the new Thunderbolt variant. Gawd the Hellion would be amazing, even better than the Arctic Cheetah back when the Arctic Cheetah was good.

Would people cremate me alive for suggesting we get such an outstandingly cool and efficacious Clan light 'Mech over The Last Of The Unseen™? You betcha they would.

Do I want Crusaders? Not even slightly. I could argue all day for why they're a bad idea. But in the end, everybody could argue that for everything. None of us are gonna get what we want, so we may as well let the 'Mech Dads have their final little trophy for the wall. If they're willing to buy it, go ahead and let Piranha sell it to 'em.

Hah mech Grandpappy at my age

[r4plez]

Crusider?! How anbout no to Gundam mek. Its not even recognizable in canon

[pbiggz]

r4plez, on 07 July 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

Crusider?! How anbout no to Gundam mek. Its not even recognizable in canon

Whats a Crusider?

[FinnMcKool]

pbiggz, on 07 July 2021 - 09:32 AM, said:

Whats a Crusider?

thats the guy in the passenger seat yelling out the window as you pass some hot chicks in the street.

[r4plez]

pbiggz, on 07 July 2021 - 09:32 AM, said:

Whats a Crusider?

you know what it is, you just had to post

[ScrapIron Prime]

Worm Seraphin, on 07 July 2021 - 08:49 AM, said:

How did this one get missed?
One of my favorite tabletop mechs.

Two words... Harmony Gold. but they're back in their cage now, so this could happen.

r4plez, on 07 July 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

Crusider?! How anbout no to Gundam mek. Its not even recognizable in canon

I have no idea what you're saying, sir. The Crusader is one of the original mechs from the box set, the design lovingly ripped off from Macross (an armored Valkyrie). no Gundams involved.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 07 July 2021 - 11:03 AM.

[r4plez]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 July 2021 - 11:02 AM, said:

I have no idea what you're saying, sir. The Crusader is one of the original mechs from the box set, the design lovingly ripped off from Macross (an armored Valkyrie). no Gundams involved.

ok, my bad -this mech looks too much anime for me