39 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

There's a number of little things that continue to never get a patch so I wonder about them in general, and figure lots of people have their own things, and own justifications maybe, so here's my list.

Why no override engage menu toggle? Dying to forgetting to press that button is the lamest thing since lameness itself. I can turn off my own mech thanks, if the option is accidentally losing control of my mech and probably dying from the resulting damage, or taking some heat damage and choosing whether to shutdown etc, I choose the latter, stop making me remember to make it at the start of every battle.

Why no team damage indicator differential? (or auto "sorry" after teamhits) Waiting for a teammate to say sorry versus, instant verification that it is team damage you are taking (via a blue indicator or whatever), which does happen particularly in a game, and should have such in game indications/differentiation. You want to encourage communication and discourage trolling and not the other way around right?

Why no 8v8 QP options? I can understand the fear of scaling back the 12v12 games entirely, but surely QP could benefit from some 8v8 gameplay/maps/modes/options.

So yeah there's a couple that come to mind often enough, I count 8v8 QP as an easy option because many current maps/modes could easily have 8v8 versions/placements, but I might be under appreciating the workload? Who knows, what are your "why no"s and/or explanation for why there is no "x", not including "PGI sucks" because, well... Lets try to be creative at least

[Bombast]

Override State Toggle: While I empathize with this problem, and sometimes I've thought its a good idea, I don't think it actually is. Override is basically the games turbo, and a dangerous one that that. It can kill you faster than anything else in the game. It should always be a manual thing.

Auto-Sorry: Why assume they're sorry?

Team Damage Indicator: I'm unconvinced this is worth developer time, or if it should be put in at all regardless. Nothing you've pointed out makes me think its necessary or desirable.

8v8 Queue: The game's population cannot support this as an option, and the developers refuses to make it the standard.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

Override State Toggle: While I empathize with this problem, and sometimes I've thought its a good idea, I don't think it actually is. Override is basically the games turbo, and a dangerous one that that. It can kill you faster than anything else in the game. It should always be a manual thing.

I don't see what people potentially being able to kill themselves quickly due to override has to do with a menu toggle, the option to do so still exists, and the option to untoggle it would exist, it sounds like you are making an argument for not having override at all, which wasn't what I was pointing at.

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

Auto-Sorry: Why assume they're sorry?

Is that your honest response? Or a joke?

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

Team Damage Indicator: I'm unconvinced this is worth developer time, or if it should be put in at all regardless. Nothing you've pointed out makes me think its necessary or desirable.

Developer time? The game already identifies when you cause team damage, some kind of simple automated indicator, much like the directional damage warning that already exists (or the idea of the sorry call function being used automatically), the utility of this should be self evident; to ensure that communication is made effectively in an environment where it should be, and most importantly in general deterrence of trolling, if you don't think those are good enough justifications that's fine, but I do.

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

8v8 Queue: The game's population cannot support this as an option, and the developers refuses to make it the standard.

How so?

[Bombast]

Shifty McSwift, on 14 September 2018 - 07:26 PM, said:

I don't see what people potentially being able to kill themselves quickly due to override has to do with a menu toggle, the option to do so still exists, and the option to untoggle it would exist, it sounds like you are making an argument for not having override at all, which wasn't what I was pointing at.

It's just how I think the mechanic should work. You should have to turn it on, simple as that.

I'd be game for an auto-open on bay doors though. Christ, that's annoying.

Quote

Is that your honest response? Or a joke?

Honest. It's silly for the game to be spitting out apologies for the player. If they're sorry, they can say they're sorry. If you want to assume every friendly hosing you in the back is sorry, you don't need the game telling you so.

Quote

Developer time? The game already identifies when you cause team damage, some kind of simple automated indicator, much like the directional damage warning that already exists (or the idea of the sorry call function being used automatically), the utility of this should be self evident; to ensure that communication is made effectively in an environment where it should be, and most importantly in general deterrence of trolling, if you don't think those are good enough justifications that's fine, but I do.

Yes, it takes time. No, this isn't a communication issue, though you could argue its a HUD information issue. And no, this would not deter trolls.

Quote

How so?

How so what? That the game can't support an extra two queues? I'd think that's self evident.

That the developers refuse to change to 8v8 overall? People have been begging for it since 12v12 was a thing. The developers have said they were considering it at least twice. And yet here we are.

Edited by Bombast, 14 September 2018 - 07:49 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

Honest. It's silly for the game to be spitting out apologies for the player. If they're sorry, they can say they're sorry. If you want to assume every friendly hosing you in the back is sorry, you don't need the game telling you so.

What's silly is that argument, if that is really how you feel, how about and off option maybe?

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

How so what? That the game can't support an extra two queues? I'd think that's self evident.

Can't support two extra queues but can support solaris and faction play distinction, even if I were arguing for separate queues, which I am not, that is questionable logic. All I pointed to was a few 8v8 placements on the maps and modes we have added to the quickplay pubqueue random list, it would still incorporate the group 12v12, and the pub 12v12 scenarios, it would just occasionally plop in 8v8 versions, depending on randomness and the current lobby etc.

[Bombast]

Shifty McSwift, on 14 September 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

What's silly is that argument, if that is really how you feel, how about and off option maybe?

I don't see how it's that silly of an argument. The game spitting out 'Sorry' serves no purpose. You've failed to demonstrate what it would change.

Quote

Can't support two extra queues but can support solaris and faction play distinction, even if I were arguing for separate queues, which I am not, that is questionable logic.

Solaris is dead and FP quite frequently is as well. If players split evenly we'd be in deeper trouble than we are now.

As it is at the moment, MM struggles, and almost universally fails, to construct decent matches with relatively equally skilled opponents. Diluting teams between 8v8 and 12v12 would only serve to make this problem worse.

But since you're not arguing for separate queues, the second bit applies - The developers have refused to do it for years. They've considered it at least twice and it hasn't happened. There's really not much arguing left on that point, just futile prayers Chris is gonna spit back in your face.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bombast, on 14 September 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

I don't see how it's that silly of an argument. The game spitting out 'Sorry' serves no purpose. You've failed to demonstrate what it would change.

Perhaps, or perhaps you have failed to recognize the situations in which the points i make would be helpful. To paint a picture, like when you have potentially both teammates pushing behind you that may be slightly clipping you, but also the threat of an enemy peeping your spine, it would be nice for the many situations like this, to be able to immediately identify whether it is a bit of unintended (or intended, but that's irrelevant really) teamfire or if it is enemy fire. Rather than relying on "friendlies" to tell you, and/or having to spin all the way around to make sure, and/or just letting yourself be cored by an enemy because you think it is just teamfire etc. Rather than a very simple automated indicator.

As far as deterring trolling goes, if it is very clearly a troll firing at teammates backs when they get hit by enemy fire, such a differentiation would make that very clear, which is a rare example of trolling, but an example nonetheless, if you require more examples to show the merits here they are myriad and I can list them, but if you are going to just ignore them and claim it is not demonstrating anything, then that is your view on it, I feel like I have demonstrated it multiple times now.

[Bombast]

Shifty McSwift, on 14 September 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

Perhaps, or perhaps you have failed to recognize the situations in which the points i make would be helpful. To paint a picture, like when you have potentially both teammates pushing behind you that may be slightly clipping you, but also the threat of an enemy peeping your spine, it would be nice for the many situations like this, to be able to immediately identify whether it is a bit of unintended (or intended, but that's irrelevant really) teamfire or if it is enemy fire. Rather than relying on "friendlies" to tell you, and/or having to spin all the way around to make sure, and/or just letting yourself be cored by an enemy because you think it is just teamfire etc. Rather than a very simple automated indicator.

I can't think of a situation where I wasn't able to determine whether I had to turn around or not just by looking at the map and my rag doll. Getting shot in the back by an enemy does not always require you to turn around, and you can't always ignore friendly fire. A blue indicator is a poor substitute for just paying attention and making use of your own judgement.

Quote

As far as deterring trolling goes, if it is very clearly a troll firing at teammates backs when they get hit by enemy fire, such a differentiation would make that very clear, which is a rare example of trolling, but an example nonetheless...

Most MWO 'trolls,' in my experience, very much want you to know that they're the ones shooting you.

Quote

...if you require more examples to show the merits here they are myriad and I can list them, but if you are going to just ignore them and claim it is not demonstrating anything, then that is your view on it, I feel like I have demonstrated it multiple times now.

I'm afraid I just don't think any of your examples or points are worth anything. Sorry.

[Shifty McSwift]

I think we have discovered the reason relatively simple and efficient things really won't get added. Thanks for making that clear.

[Ruar]

I agree there should be a way for you to pick if you want manual override or set it to automatic. On you if your poor heat tracking leads to an early death. Default for new players should absolutely be turned on and I'd require going through a tutorial before activating the automatic option.

Team damage indicator should be a thing. Even if it's just a blue flashy on your screen when you take friendly damage. I wouldn't add in any text for it though. I realize it's a little unrealistic for your system to know what type of damage you take, but it's a game and we don't have full immersion so little things to help make sense.

Personally I think 8v8 is a bad idea, but I can understand it's appeal to some people. I would just make it an event one weekend out of the month, maybe even a full week. There would be two ques during those times and people would be encouraged to play in the 8v8 with increased rewards and exp, but not required. A little variety without committing to any kind of permanent change.


One of the biggest issues I've seen with people on these forums is they don't want to compromise. Override should only be one way. Match size should only be one way. There is almost always a way to find some common ground where both sides get a little bit of what they want. Sadly it seems MWO is slowly fading away because PGI refuses to compromise.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ruar, on 15 September 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

I agree there should be a way for you to pick if you want manual override or set it to automatic. On you if your poor heat tracking leads to an early death.

Exactly, poor management of a lot of things will lead to an early death, the game gives players the option to play with override engaged or not, the option already exists, the annoyance I pointed to lies in the unnecessary mechanic of having to turn it on every game.

Why does it get turned off when my mech goes back to the mechbay? If we can't get a menu toggle, can you tell me which car is the mech repairman that keeps turning off the override engage in all my mechs? If override engage is a switch on my mech, can I MC purchase some duct tape to keep it in the ON position?

If people don't like the mechanic itself, I totally understand that and would probably agree with most changes there, but it is what it is in the meantime, and a toggle isn't going to change the 98% of the time I don't forget to press the dang button.

[Siegegun]

Shifty McSwift, on 15 September 2018 - 06:24 AM, said:

I think we have discovered the reason relatively simple and efficient things really won't get added. Thanks for making that clear.

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that is why we can not have nice things. I happen to agree with Bombasts points.

[Ruar]

Siegegun, on 15 September 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that is why we can not have nice things. I happen to agree with Bombasts points.

Also, most of the opposing view points on the forums have left. The majority of the people who still play and post are the ones who prefer PGI's decisions instead of player suggestions. Don't let the dog pound discourage you because the bulk of the people who agree have left the game and aren't around to support you anymore.

[Siegegun]

Ruar, on 15 September 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

Also, most of the opposing view points on the forums have left. The majority of the people who still play and post are the ones who prefer PGI's decisions instead of player suggestions. Don't let the dog pound discourage you because the bulk of the people who agree have left the game and aren't around to support you anymore.

I do not agree with most of PGI's decisions. That is a huge ASSUMPTION on your part. All I said is just because someone does not agree with OP, does not mean this is "why" things do not get added. Quite frankly that's a childs attitude in my opinion. It is akin to "you do not agree with me so that is why it is all messed up".

[Tarl Cabot]

Wait, you are getting your panties twisted because there is no toggle to preset engage override? Really? imho, that engage override should have been happening sooner with a hard shutdown. Even though TT has 4 dice rolls to determine if the mech shuts down or not before the hard shutdown, I would be okay with only one threshold.

Imho, MWO is the only game of its type with some small replay value. Yes, many have left to play other games but not mech games (does Titan still count somehow?) There are many aspects of the game that are shallow, just not shallow enough to quit just yet. Nor am I aware of any other company ready to take it up. I am not ready for another 10 year dry spell.

As for the team damage/8v8, it is difficult enough to get things done as it is. Though I would like team damage to be shown on the big score board and not just the individual scoreboard. As for 8vs8, I would like to see a limited version, even if it was to run every other hour, one day out of the week, etc.but PGI has coded it so it is not very flexible, Edit - this would be on the backend, the pay out/etc, though I do wonder how it would play out in FP on the non-siege maps.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 September 2018 - 07:55 AM.

[Ruar]

Siegegun, on 15 September 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

I do not agree with most of PGI's decisions. That is a huge ASSUMPTION on your part. All I said is just because someone does not agree with OP, does not mean this is "why" things do not get added. Quite frankly that's a childs attitude in my opinion. It is akin to "you do not agree with me so that is why it is all messed up".

First, please not the use of the words "most" and "majority" which indicates it doesn't apply to everyone. If my statement doesn't apply to you then please don't try to wear it.

And the OP isn't saying just because people disagree it's why things are messed up. He's saying that the person providing counter arguments left no room for compromise and barely acknowledged any of the issues were actually a problem. There was no real discussion and instead it was more akin to "you don't know what your talking about and are completely wrong because I say so".

These forums are very bad at actual discussion and are very good at simply dismissing people's disagreements. Mainly because so many who used to bring up disagreements about the game have left because they got tired of there being no actual discussion.

[Shifty McSwift]

Siegegun, on 15 September 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that is why we can not have nice things. I happen to agree with Bombasts points.

The inference was that petty contrarianism is a likely reason why devs just don't bother and no it wasn't serious, I never suggested my wants there were "nice" at all, just that they were things I perceived as relatively simple changes that hadn't been made and my arguments for them, you might notice in the OP I make that pretty clear that these are indeed personal things and personal reasoning and that others might have their own personal annoyances and reasoning that might line up. It isn't a suggestion post for drumming up support for changes it is discussing the notion of what may seem like simple changes and why we want them, and the kinds of reasons they don't get changed.

The only points I saw Bombast make were along the lines of "get better", "your points suck", "because that's how it should be" and a single on topic addition of wanting a toggle for bay doors, which was nice of him to actually add something useful. Disagreements I have no issue with.

I thought I made the premise clear, but I seem to have failed there.

[Siegegun]

Ruar, on 15 September 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

First, please not the use of the words "most" and "majority" which indicates it doesn't apply to everyone. If my statement doesn't apply to you then please don't try to wear it.

And the OP isn't saying just because people disagree it's why things are messed up. He's saying that the person providing counter arguments left no room for compromise and barely acknowledged any of the issues were actually a problem. There was no real discussion and instead it was more akin to "you don't know what your talking about and are completely wrong because I say so".

These forums are very bad at actual discussion and are very good at simply dismissing people's disagreements. Mainly because so many who used to bring up disagreements about the game have left because they got tired of there being no actual discussion.

Your statements most and majority are completely fabricated. You have no actual idea of any real numbers. So please do not use "most" and "majority" as some kind of statistical numbers then. The OP most certainly DID imply we cant have change because someone disagreed with him. There were counter points brought up, and done so politely. Funny how there is no "discussion" just because you are disagreed with.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

Shifty McSwift, on 14 September 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

Why no team damage indicator differential? (or auto "sorry" after teamhits) Waiting for a teammate to say sorry versus, instant verification that it is team damage you are taking (via a blue indicator or whatever), which does happen particularly in a game, and should have such in game indications/differentiation. You want to encourage communication and discourage trolling and not the other way around right?

>PusseyD34THzZTRACTORRR<:PUSH, U NUB
>PusseyD34THzZTRACTORRR<:sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorrysorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>PusseyD34THzZTRACTORRR< killed Shifty McSwift
>PusseyD34THzZTRACTORRR<:i beg your pardon!

So, people will shoot backs just for the love of art

Edited by Sneaky Ohgoorchik, 15 September 2018 - 07:56 AM.

[MrXanthios]

Shifty McSwift, on 14 September 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

Why no team damage indicator differential? (or auto "sorry" after teamhits) Waiting for a teammate to say sorry versus, instant verification that it is team damage you are taking (via a blue indicator or whatever), which does happen particularly in a game, and should have such in game indications/differentiation. You want to encourage communication and discourage trolling and not the other way around right?

I would settle for permanent ban for those ************* who open or pop your rear torso with their bloody gauss, because as soon as they see a red reticle they have to shoot and cannot realize there is a friendly between their barrel and the enemy.

Edited by MrXanthios, 15 September 2018 - 08:09 AM.