198 replies to this topic

[Peace2U]

I'm not here to ***** about the piranha being Over Powered.
Just trying to figure out what the developers had in mind for this little guy.

It's very confusing to see them running around sawing mechs 5 times their weight down in mere seconds, while assaults are hammering guys with all their firepower and getting less kills???
Was it intentional on their part to allow 12 weapon hard points to fire consecutively with very little heat penalty on such a small and quick mech, so that the Clans would have a better close range option against I.S. mechs?
And to top it off, if the little guy gets close enough to do some leg humping, the larger mechs cannot even see them to shoot back!

I always thought that a light mech was designed for scouting and harassing heavier opponents, not as a close range assassin.
With their crazy high D.P.S., they are the leading killers on the battlefield.

I have witnessed several occasions where a piranha was spotted moving towards the opposing team, and they withdrew from their position in fear of the little guy getting in range.
(sorry to say it was actually funny to watch - If Mr. Spock saw this his right eyebrow would raise)

Again, this is not a rant, but I have seen it happen so often it makes me wonder if this is by design.
I'm not talking about balance, or even fairness, I just want to make sense of it.

I encourage anyone with a counterpoint to discuss this, as I am mystified about it, and would like a logical explanation.
Peace

[Peter2k]

Peace2U, on 18 September 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

Just trying to figure out what the developers had in mind for this little guy.

InnerSphereNews, on 14 September 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Piranha Design Notes: ....The Piranha at its heart is very much an extreme glass cannon 'Mech, and we want to keep its current potency

there ya go, from the patch notes

actually spot on
extreme glas canon, it is extreme risk extreme reward
a good aimed alpha of another laser spamming light will take a torso off

Peace2U, on 18 September 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

I always thought that a light mech was designed for scouting and harassing heavier opponents, not as a close range assassin.
With their crazy high D.P.S., they are the leading killers on the battlefield.

Well not all lights
you also have lights that you usually don't see that often because they are too slow in practicality, but offer more pod weight


btw
it comes down to people either missing too much when hitting lights and not wanting to bother with streaks
if a PIR runs into a streak boat its insta gibbed


Also many Pilots actually have terrible awareness
I have shot many mechs in the back with assaults, heavies, all classes
It's surprising how long it usually takes them to notice they get shot in the back


In about 6000 matches I have been killed by lights in the back not more than a dozen times
I don't use seismic and run usually not more than 2 or 3 points back armor

I just know how to protect my back, even in an anni

Edited by Peter2k, 18 September 2018 - 11:00 PM.

[BumbaCLot]

#Pir2lyfe
50 damage 50% heat every second 2 alphas = dead

[Kaeb Odellas]

Peter2k, on 18 September 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

there ya go, from the patch notes

actually spot on
extreme glas canon, it is extreme risk extreme reward
a good aimed alpha of another laser spamming light will take a torso off

It's really not that much risk. Sure the mech is squishy and gets wrecked by streak boats, but that's true for just about every light, and those lights don't get the benefit of absurd, zero-heat firepower.

Just don't be an idiot and charge in at the very beginning. All you have to do is go cap or guard fatties for the first 5 minutes or so. Then, once the main brawl starts, run up and shoot at the red parts while they're busy shooting your teammates

[VonBruinwald]

Peter2k, on 18 September 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

actually spot on
extreme glas canon, it is extreme risk extreme reward
a good aimed alpha of another laser spamming light will take a torso off

An extreme glass cannon... with structure quirks... seems legit.

[Peter2k]

VonBruinwald, on 18 September 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

An extreme glass cannon... with structure quirks... seems legit.

+4 to legs, *waves hands maniacally over the head*; call the nerf police
thank god it has a heat dissipation quirk, that's gonna help with the machine guns

oh, you mean PIR-3, +3 to CT, my gawd


but then the cipher got deleted, so maybe you all got what ya wanted

Edited by Peter2k, 19 September 2018 - 01:15 AM.

[Inatu Elimor]

It' s not the Pir...it' s the skilled pilot you need to be afraid off.

[Tiewolf]

If it would only be kills, then there would be nothing to worry about. But apparently the little bugger collects KMDDs like crazy too and the allmost instant disarming or ammo crits on Assaults is the real problem.
It is true that in unskilled hands (like mine) the Piranha is not even a glass cannon but just an easy kill for the enemy team. In skilled hands how ever the glass cannon nature (highly debatable due to hitreg) and the limited cockpit view does not make up for its potential and this minority causes the legit OP Piranha shouts.
Since the lock on changes SSRMs, ATMs and LRMs are just a joke for lights. So the only real remaining threat is pinpoint dmg where speed and mobility matters most to counter it. If PGI rethink their lock on changes I would argue that there is a good counter for Piranhas and whiners should whine somewhere else. But with these changes i am in favour of the OP piranha calls.

[xVLFBERHxT]

Piranha & MG Mistlynx. At this point MWO stopped to be a battletech game. A light mech (specialy an anti infantry light mech) should never take an Assault 1v1.

[Racerxintegra2k]

I actually think that the PIR-1 was the last straw for me. I played the PIR-1 pretty much exclusively for a month on an alt account ... it was just silly how much better my stats were to my normal play. If a potato like me can perform that much better in 1 mech its broken imo.

[Curccu]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

Piranha & MG Mistlynx. At this point MWO stopped to be a battletech game. A light mech (specialy an anti infantry light mech) should never take an Assault 1v1.

because in BT machinegun are 100% anti-infantry and doesn't do 2 damage to mechs or just another silly opinion?

[xVLFBERHxT]

Curccu, on 19 September 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

because in BT machinegun are 100% anti-infantry and doesn't do 2 damage to mechs or just another silly opinion?

You know what i mean. To me its like taking a Tiger Tank with an 12 MG Willys Jeep.

[Davegt27]

[Shadowomega1]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 03:22 AM, said:

You know what i mean. To me its like taking a Tiger Tank with an 12 MG Willys Jeep.

To be fair those Jeeps didn't have 25mm Bushmaster autocannons, which is pretty much what a mech's machine gun is.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

*le sigh*

@OP - just buy yourself a Pir. it's really cheap. then drive it yourself to easymode-victory, as it is that overpowered.
no offense, but: grass looks always greener, you know..

personally, I really enjoy that mech. I also enjoy one-shotting them, which is not that hard in many mechs/matches, and is -way- easier to pull off than against most other lights.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 19 September 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[M R T]

Shadowomega1, on 19 September 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

To be fair those Jeeps didn't have 25mm Bushmaster autocannons, which is pretty much what a mech's machine gun is.

Battletech autocannons range from 25mm to 203mm, placing the AC/2 at around 25mm and the AC/20 at around 200mm. Sure you're not thinking of 12.7mm (or .50 caliber)? That would make more sense.

[Morrigann]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 19 September 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

*le sigh*

@OP - just buy yourself a Pir. it's really cheap. then drive it yourself to easymode-victory, as it is that overpowered.
no offense, but: grass looks always greener, you know..

personally, I really enjoy that mech. I also enjoy one-shotting them, which is not that hard in many mechs/matches, and is -way- easier to pull off than against most other lights.

Ah, YUP.
If i may, the issue with the pirahna, is most builds encourage STARING - target fixation is a no-no in small mechs (ok, any mech)...
What I think Hero-in-a-half-Mech is saying here is that, the pirahna is a tool, and you're imo overlooking the finesse required to use that tool well. They're great scavengers, and hilarious when attacking missile boats or snipers that lagged too far behind; but; used poorly... ( I've been in low-tier solo que where the pirahna was trying to MG a fresh mech, then whining when they die instead of thier target. Way too many times...)

Edited by DoubleOught, 19 September 2018 - 04:20 AM.

[Morrigann]

Shadowomega1, on 19 September 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

To be fair those Jeeps didn't have 25mm Bushmaster autocannons, which is pretty much what a mech's machine gun is.

at 1/2 ton of "machine gun"; we're looking at something approaching this ( 619 lbs, is it?)

That's technically an "autocannon" - and mounted on the A-10.
30 mm, iirc. Endless articles on how it performs against tank armor - and most aren't the answer most people think.

Battletech autocannons, despite sarna and endless tech discussions, are usually confused with auto-loaders; which is different, but is a difference generally considered fluff.( Weisman, if i understand correctly, said losing that difference caused some imbalances in the BT computer game, but in general, most people consider that a "fluff" argument. Ina 'fps" or simulator game, such abstractions get important quickly).
ANyway - we're getting on shiny squirrel tangents, my apologies.

Edited by DoubleOught, 19 September 2018 - 04:56 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

Morte Nilsum, on 19 September 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Battletech autocannons range from 25mm to 203mm, placing the AC/2 at around 25mm and the AC/20 at around 200mm. Sure you're not thinking of 12.7mm (or .50 caliber)? That would make more sense.

AC/2 does how much damage, and how much damage does a machine gun do in table top? 2 Right?

In MWO before the extra 500 rounds of MG ammo was added it was 2k rounds per ton, which is 1 pound per round, and a cMG weight is .25 tons or 500 pounds, and the IS MG is .5 tons or 1000 pounds.

What current system could weigh this much the? The M242 Bushmaster which is about 260 pounds, this could weigh more with a larger ammo feed system and ammo store system. The Bushmaster II (30mm) which is about 350 pounds again weight could be added by larger ammo feed system and ammo storage systems. The Bushmaster III which is 35mm which is nearly 500 pounds, and the Bushmaster IV a 40mm system with a weight around 800 pounds.

As for caliber the Machine gun to a mech could be 25*137 (Bushmaster I rounds) and the AC/2 could be 25*300mm or more. As for in the table top and lore just about all autocannons are burst weapons so we do run into the situation of what caliber is it truely.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 19 September 2018 - 05:14 AM.

[Appogee]

Here's what really happened with the Piranha...

PGI makes almost all of its revenue from the sale of Mech Packs. However, the game has been out for several years now, and long term customers have bought literally hundreds of Mechs. Among those Mechs can be found just about every combination of hardpoints, tonnages and configurations a player could ever reasonably want.

So it become harder and harder for PGI to sell Mech Packs. New Mechs that had no competitive advantage, or replicated existing hardpoint combinations and tonnages, were not selling well. Additionally, PGI's lack of work on attracting new players (no marketing), helping new players learn to play (almost no tutorials), and have positive gameplay experiences (dysfunctional matchmaker), also meant PGI wasn't getting enough revenue from new players buying existing Mech Packs.

To prop up its revenue, PGI resorted to power creep. It decided to create Mechs so attractive, so competitive, boating more hardpoints (or more armor, or more agility, or more ... something) than the hundreds of Mechs the installed base already owned.

The Piranha, able to boat MGs in quantities never before seen, is one such example. PGI knew its ability to crit Mechs would be so attractive that it would sell thousands of Piranha packs, even to those of us who already have hundreds of Mechs. (The Annihilator, which in effect boats durability like no other Mech, is another example of PGI deliberately power creeping Mechs.)

So, as with most decisions taken by the devs about this game, the Piranha was the latest in a long line of short-term efforts to boost sales.

Peace2U, on 18 September 2018 - 10:45 PM, said:

I'm not talking about balance, or even fairness, I just want to make sense of it.

Balance and fairness stopped being considerations for PGI more than a year ago. Since that time, balance decisions and selection of new Mech Packs have been principally driven by the goal of boosting sales ... through power creep, appeals to nostalgia, and buffing existing pay-real-money-to-purchase Hero Mechs relative to their peers.

(An alternative path would have been for PGI to make the game, the gameplay, the matchmaking and the end game of Faction Play so compelling that existing customers wanted to keep investing in it, and more and more new folks were attracted to try it out and stay. Unfortunately, that has never been PGI's business model.)

Edited by Appogee, 19 September 2018 - 05:39 AM.