198 replies to this topic

[thievingmagpi]

there ya go

[Shadowomega1]

kf envy, on 19 September 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

last I looked at my books and core books the MGs are not 25mm bushmasters that's more in the AC2 range weapon group the MGs are in the 50cal range and MGs do way more damage to boots on the ground then AC2s

How about this, one of the current best high rate of fire .50 cal or 12.7mm machine guns, GAU-19/B weighs in at a total of 106 pounds (48kg) even with ammo feeding system going though the whole mech that would only bump the weapon's weight to about 200 to 250 pounds; half of the weight of a clan machine guns weight and a quarter of the weight of an IS machine gun. Yet those bushmasters would easily match the weight with ammo feeding systems spread though the mech. Not to mention the weight of the 25mm rounds are about 1 pound each compared to one of the heaviest of the most common used .50 cal rounds is a tenth of that. Also in lore the mechs are is a highly dense composite material made from the hardest materials known to man, and current .50 cal rounds can not do much against mbts using composite materials. Currently 25mm and even 30mm rounds viability is coming into question as even those are having trouble penetrating modern composite tank armor like Chobham armor. Even during the first gulf war 25mm rounds fired by Bradley's IFV/CFV against T-55 and T-72 with RHA had been deflecting off. What do you think would happen in a universe where armor tech somehow surpases weapon tech, .50 cal rounds are just going to end up bouncing even when their made longer.

[FireStoat]

Player skill is everything with this mech, but that said, it's OP when it's in their hands. Proton was maintaining a 19 kill to 1 death ratio with the mech for several weeks until he was getting sick of playing it and his stream viewers were getting sick of watching it. He stated that he simply couldn't do as well in any other mech, especially to as high a ratio as he could with that one. Bearclaw was achieving similar results (but without the extreme ratio) and got tired of using it as well on his stream for the same reason - it was too easy to win with for him.

The issue is that these players are extremely fast in identifying weak places on maps and the usual choices potato players make in where they go, how they set themselves up, etc. Exceptionally good players know what they can get away with and when with the general flow of quick drops. They also know how most lesser skilled players play and how they arm and armor their mechs at a glance, and they know in their minds how fast a proposed single strike engagement will take. The fish mech delivers an absurd amount of close ranged firepower and is extremely mobile, so that's all they need to cruise around to kill 3-4 mechs early and tilt the match over for a win.

[Judah Malganis]

Quote

last I looked at my books and core books the MGs are not 25mm bushmasters that's more in the AC2 range weapon group the MGs are in the 50cal range and MGs do way more damage to boots on the ground then AC2s

BT lore and rules point to the fact that MGs get a bonus vs infantry, not a penalty vs 'Mechs. That's a significant difference. They do AC2 level dmg to 'Mech armor. People need to get off the 'MGs should be crap" podium. MWO MGs are probably the weakest of all the variations of them. Imagine if they were able to pull off AC2 fps in game. People would lose their minds.

On a side note, if you look at the score board for most QP matches nowadays, it's the light lance that carries the match, getting half the kills or more, and it's not just the Piranha. Light pilots tend to be braver than average (for better or worse) and will exploit the cowardice and mistakes of players on the opposing team.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 19 September 2018 - 08:29 AM.

[Snowbluff]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

Piranha & MG Mistlynx. At this point MWO stopped to be a battletech game. A light mech (specialy an anti infantry light mech) should never take an Assault 1v1.

"Lights can't be good."

[thievingmagpi]

that's a good final point. I have a few ideas about that:

1)They're fun. Speed, agility and firepower are just fun on a basic level.

2) "more skilled" players prefer lights. (Not always true, lots if dedicated high skilled assault pilots). this is related to some further points as follows, but there are a lot of pretty notable "lights only" pilots.

2) less reliance on team. I can do my own thing. Often, my team is just as much of an obstacle as the enemy. this related to point 1 as well. Lots of good pilots avoid assaults in QP because they don't want to have to deal with their team. hesitation, cowardice, xl lrm atlases... I love my Sleipnir and my Madcat, but frankly it's a real roll of the dice if my team is going to go full wtf mode and I'm left trying to solo half the enemy.

3) big, slow targets. in a PIR or something like a Commando, I'm putting damage into the enemy before most of my team and it's generally at a big, slow target. If I'm piloting an assault I generally need to wait a bit to get into position before I can really start being effective. Lights start the action faster.

In general I think a lot of this comes back to earlier statements I said about "overall player skill". If there were a move even level of skill, I'd tend more towards heavies and assaults because it's fun to run those with a competent-ish team. But it's a roll of the dice and I'm just not skilled enough to carry that hard in an Assault.

[JediPanther]

Inatu Elimor, on 19 September 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

It' s not the Pir...it' s the skilled pilot you need to be afraid off.

Given how often I fight and win duels against them in my IS lights I see a lot of yolo rambos in the pirs in qp. If one takes you by surprise then they normally can do a lot of damage but even then they are still just a light. It's like people don't know how or forget the light mech class' main weakness.

The vast majority of my pir kills are not from ct or st shots. The skilled pir pilots which are rare can do a lot of damage. I've had a few pirs run away from my Ember. My Ember runs a near identical loadout of mgs and lasers to the pir in the form of 4x hmgs with 25% rof quirk and 4x spls.

The easiest way to deal with any light:break the legs.

[Nightbird]

MG do BONUS damage to infantry in table top, but they are anti-armor. MGs in game are heavier than the nose gun of the A10 tankbuster:

https://en.wikipedia...i/GAU-8_Avenger

30mm auto-cannons

Kills tanks real good, turns infantry into red goo

[Mystere]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 03:22 AM, said:

You know what i mean. To me its like taking a Tiger Tank with an 12 MG Willys Jeep.

A Willys Jeep's MGs -- by design -- cannot destroy the Tiger's armor.

On the other hand, a BT MG -- by design -- can destroy any Mech's armor.

Is that too hard to grasp?

Edited by Mystere, 19 September 2018 - 08:55 AM.

[xVLFBERHxT]

Mystere, on 19 September 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

A Willys Jeep's MGs -- by design -- cannot destroy the Tiger's armor.

On the other hand, a BT MG -- by design -- can destroy any Mech's armor.

Is that too hard to grasp?

The comparison was about the vehicles, not the guns...

Is that too hard to grasp?

[thievingmagpi]

I'm pretty sure at least one Stuart took out a Tiger by shooting it in the back

[BumbaCLot]

People are still talking about 1s, and no mention of the 2s and 3s. Yes the MG crits may suck but these fast 15 laser alphas were deveststating last night. The ghost heat decoupling is awesome. I'll be running the 2 for my mech of choice for the next 2 weeks.

[thievingmagpi]

BumbaCLot, on 19 September 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

People are still talking about 1s, and no mention of the 2s and 3s. Yes the MG crits may suck but these fast 15 laser alphas were deveststating last night. The ghost heat decoupling is awesome. I'll be running the 2 for my mech of choice for the next 2 weeks.

you hush now

[xVLFBERHxT]

A light mech should not destroy an assault mech in seconds, thats not Battletech.
Its some sort of a (funy) mech shooter or so.

Kudos to MWO 's light pilots. I cant play them effectively and I have no problem with lights or MG's in this game. In fact, I have only bad results with the piranha. The mech is not op in my hands. But thats not what I wanted to say. I just dont like to see tanks running from willys jeeps.

[Shadowomega1]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

A light mech should not destroy an assault mech in seconds, thats not Battletech.
Its some sort of a (funy) mech shooter or so.

Kudos to MWO 's light pilots. I cant play them effectively and I have no problem with lights or MG's in this game. In fact, I have only bad results with the piranha. The mech is not op in my hands. But thats not what I wanted to say. I just dont like to see tanks running from willys jeeps.

They can in TT if they get a through armor crit, penetrate the head, crit the head or get all their hits into the mechs back side. Furthermore most mechs in TT also have more back armor then most pilots in MWO players have and we have double armor values and double structure values values. We also see people not twisting their mechs to spread the damage.

[Mystere]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

The comparison was about the vehicles, not the guns...

Is that too hard to grasp?

You failed to take into account the weapons the vehicle is known to carry.

That's the problem with performing a static one-dimensional analysis of a dynamic multi-dimensional system.

thievingmagpi, on 19 September 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure at least one Stuart took out a Tiger by shooting it in the back

My thoughts exactly.

Edited by Mystere, 19 September 2018 - 09:37 AM.

[Snowbluff]

BumbaCLot, on 19 September 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

People are still talking about 1s, and no mention of the 2s and 3s. Yes the MG crits may suck but these fast 15 laser alphas were deveststating last night. The ghost heat decoupling is awesome. I'll be running the 2 for my mech of choice for the next 2 weeks.

Oooh, I would like to know more.

[thievingmagpi]

xVLFBERHxT, on 19 September 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

A light mech should not destroy an assault mech in seconds, thats not Battletech.
Its some sort of a (funy) mech shooter or so.

Kudos to MWO 's light pilots. I cant play them effectively and I have no problem with lights or MG's in this game. In fact, I have only bad results with the piranha. The mech is not op in my hands. But thats not what I wanted to say. I just dont like to see tanks running from willys jeeps.

Now I sort of agree. It is a little bit silly for a 25 tonner to solo a 100 tonner. The issue I see that is as such:

1) There are a lot of good light pilots. A good pilot *should* be able to beat a bad pilot in just about every circumstance.

2) There are a lot of bad assault pilots. Easy enough.


Is that the only thing that explains the issue? Good players killing bads? I don't think so (speaking from experience both as a PIR, and as a victim of many PIRs)

What else?

3) Ignoring outliers, "average skill level" (players like me) still do have a hard time hitting lights sometimes. That's a function of bad skill and/or basic mechanical limits (torso mounts too high, no arms etc). I've even watched top players get facehugged by PIRs and have little to no recourse. That's important I think. Why is that Top Player getting facehugged at all? Were they just outplayed? Where is their team? Did they just melt leaving them to solo the rest of the enemies? Are they scattered to the wind and not able to help each other out?

I agree that a 20 tonner shouldn't be able to just walk up to an assault and stove them in. I'm not convinced that's what happening, but i'm also not convinced it's *simply* a function of Good Lights vs Bad Assaults.


I think the issue is a bit more complicated (and deeper) than just some Jeeps running around dunking on Tiger Tanks. Some Assaults just might be a bit too vulnerable, and something like the PIR might be punching over its weight by just a bit. That combined with some very poor teamplay create a perfect storm of REEEEEE

Snowbluff, on 19 September 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

Oooh, I would like to know more.

plz ignore, it's not a thing

[Kaeb Odellas]

Inatu Elimor, on 19 September 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

It' s not the Pir...it' s the skilled pilot you need to be afraid off.

This is true for literally every mech in the game. An Annihilator or Deathstrike in the hands of a potato is just as useless as any other mech.

[Nightbird]

A Piranha can't kill an assault in seconds. Maybe a bad assault that ignores getting shot in the back. From the front, a Piranha can kill some assaults that can't pitch down, but they also have to be bad enough to get completely isolated from teammates, because otherwise teammates love popping piranhas leg humping a teammate.