42 replies to this topic

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 September 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

That has a near-zero impact on the gameplay and you know it. Nobody ever decided to take

It was a reply to "Why should they weigh twice as much with no appreciable gain?"

But ohhh kay then, how about the additional armor quirks the FA has over the the Pir-1?
Or the noexistencial movement nerfs?
How about the 10 additional dropweight for IS decks?

Let's talk about how most clan tech has a lot less health then IS components and is therefor much easier to crit out.

That's all totally "no appreciable" of course.

It's amazing how easy folks here blend out everything and work out of context.

A flea FA with 6 MG and some small lasers is absolut lethal in the back of a direwolf like a pir-1 in the back of an anni.

6 MGs on a flea crit a clan gauss with 5 health just as fast as 12 MGs on pir crit a 10 health IS gauss.
Oh my oh my.. look at the perfect balanced math here.. who would have thought.

[Y E O N N E]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

It was a reply to "Why should they weigh twice as much with no appreciable gain?"

Speaking of taking things out of context...

[FupDup]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

It was a reply to "Why should they weigh twice as much with no appreciable gain?"

But ohhh kay then, how about the additional armor quirks the FA has over the the Pir-1?

That is not a property of IS Machine Guns, that is a property of an individual chassis.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

Or the noexistencial movement nerfs?

See above.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

How about the 10 additional dropweight for IS decks?

That is also not a property of Machine Guns, that is a property of one specific grognard game mode that nobody plays outside of events. And it really doesn't apply to 20-ton mechs that are super easy to fit in your drop decks regardless of tonnage limits.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

Let's talk about how most clan tech has a lot less health then IS components and is therefor much easier to crit out.

Now we're finally talking about specific equipment, but in this case it's arguable that the extra HP is not worth the tonnage increase.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

6 MGs on a flea crit a clan gauss with 5 health just as fast as 12 MGs on pir crit a 10 health IS gauss.
Oh my oh my.. look at the perfect balanced math here.. who would have thought.

1. Both Gauss Rifles are easy to crit out even with non-crit weapons.

2. That Piranha is going to crit out either faction of Gauss Rifle (or any other equipment) a lot faster than a 6 MG Flea.

Edited by FupDup, 27 September 2018 - 05:51 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 September 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

Speaking of taking things out of context...

Yes, let's speak of all the things noone is willing to take into context.
We don't speak about all the extra structure quirks, we don't speak about the extra component health.

If that's all you got for a reply then i'm pretty sure i'm on the right track.

FupDup, on 27 September 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

That is not a property of IS Machine Guns, that is a property of an individual chassis.

Thread title.. "re-quirk-the-flea-fa"
Does the FA needs RoF quirks? Yes, no, maybe so and why.
You might have missed it.

Oh and obviously i will pitch the top clan MG boat against the FA.
We could pitch an ebon dragon against a flea 19 too, or an arrow and a shadow cat but just not in this thread.
I don't recall a fafnir or a sleipnir boating MGs being a point of concern.

FupDup, on 27 September 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

That is also not a property of Machine Guns, that is a property of one specific grognard game mode that nobody plays outside of events. And it really doesn't apply to 20-ton mechs that are super easy to fit in your drop decks regardless of tonnage limits.

If you don't play Faction, than that's your thing, just don't make up a lie about noone playing the mode outside of events.
Having a valid 20 ton mech for clans is actually pretty important deal, especially since it's already 10 tons less the IS decks.

FupDup, on 27 September 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

Now we're finally talking about specific equipment, but in this case it's arguable that the extra HP is not worth the tonnage increase.

1. Both Gauss Rifles are easy to crit out even with non-crit weapons.

2. That Piranha is going to crit out either faction of Gauss Rifle (or any other equipment) a lot faster than a 6 MG Flea.

Yes, arguable, i would like to argue about it. I personally think it takes longer to crit out something with trice the HP but i have to call nasa to run the math. I am aware that i am polarizing in picking the gauss/c-gauss as the prime example, but it does continue through out almost all the equipment range.. AC10? 15 to 10 health, AC20? 25 to 16,5 health.

By that i can perfectly pitch a flea 19 with 8 mgs with a pir-1 with 12 mgs.

Lats but not least,

1. yes, nobody asked that. The point was that clan tech has significant less health and crits out faster.

2. Yes, the pir will crit out stuff fast, it's a glass cannon solely build arround to crit stuff out.
Here is the twist.

Pir will crit out both IS and clan faster
FA will take longer to crit out
Pir will take longer to crit out IS components
FA will crit Clan tech out faster

The last two points are very relevant when we want to keep asymetrical balance in mind, since Clan and IS are pitched against each other. You know, that "one specific grognard game mode that nobody plays outside of events" which i and most of the guys i am playing with are actually quite found of playing.

On that note, please keep all the factors in mind, not just "it weights more".
And let's keep this up as a discussion and not a debate.

[Y E O N N E]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

Yes, let's speak of all the things noone is willing to take into context.
We don't speak about all the extra structure quirks, we don't speak about the extra component health.

If that's all you got for a reply then i'm pretty sure i'm on the right track.

So now we can add delusions of grandeur to your list of crimes? Fantastic.

TL;DR of this thread is that whatever the Fire Ant has is not enough for it to compete with a PIR (or even the FLE-17 for that matter). To even fit 6x MGs and 3x SL with enough ammo to think about carrying a match requires stripping 31 points of armor, rendering one of the two tangible advantages it has (the other being MASC) little more than "free tonnage so it can still do something that this other 'Mech can do, only way worse!"

And no, Clans will not take longer to crit out IS components. As soon as armor is breached, that HGauss goes boom 100% of the time. So does the AC/20. The AC/10. A pair of AC/5. Why? Because despite having more health, these guns also 30-50% more likely to get hit on account of their size and then there is more crit potential coming in through the damage. I suppose if you want to be pedantic, 0.0000001 seconds longer is still technically longer but...lol.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 September 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

So now we can add delusions of grandeur to your list of crimes? Fantastic.

TL;DR of this thread is that whatever the Fire Ant has is not enough for it to compete with a PIR (or even the FLE-17 for that matter). To even fit 6x MGs and 3x SL with enough ammo to think about carrying a match requires stripping 31 points of armor, rendering one of the two tangible advantages it has (the other being MASC) little more than "free tonnage so it can still do something that this other 'Mech can do, only way worse!"

And no, Clans will not take longer to crit out IS components. As soon as armor is breached, that HGauss goes boom 100% of the time. So does the AC/20. The AC/10. A pair of AC/5. Why? Because despite having more health, these guns also 30-50% more likely to get hit on account of their size and then there is more crit potential coming in through the damage. I suppose if you want to be pedantic, 0.0000001 seconds longer is still technically longer but...lol.

"delustional"? what?
Now you pretend to be the law, just stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

So what actually do you want? You want Pir-1 firepower with structure quirks and masc?
You know you don't have to stylize thee FA into a make belive pir-1. You can run a flamer with 6 maschineguns, or you could run 3 MPL with masc and max engine, or 4 mg 3 er small masc and xl170 but no.. you want the FA to be a pir-1
, am i correct?
You think tossing a hissy fit and flailing your arms around will work?

If you want to have pir-1 playstyle, then take a pir-1. If you want less firepower but more health and masc, take a flea.
If you want a flea with 12 mgs, max engine, masc and full armor.. well go cry on reddit i guess, it worked in the past and i don't see a reason why it shouldn't work again.

I think what you looking for is equalizing both mechs, what i want is asymetrical balance. That's why we both are not even on the same page.

Also, don't make up random numbers please. I partially agree that some weapons are 50% more likely to explode given that they quite literally have 50% more podsize (an ac2 for example) but it's not for all weapons, an ac20 on the other end of the spectrum has "just" one more podspace, 9 compared to 10 but almost 33% more health to boot.
Not tapping into the "0.00001" since that's purely made up too.

I gotta go get ready for work now, so calm down, drink a tea, formulate your arguments and let's see if we have something actually worth discussing about.

[Lykaon]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

You don't run maschine guns... only pir does, and it's a manical glass cannon which easily gets obliterated by IS burntime, single shell acs, heavy gauss bs and whatever weapons. Even regular dual gauss is garanteed to rip a part off of any pir, even with maxed out survival tree.

That is your tradeoff using and boating clan maschineguns which are utterly worthless on almost all other clan mechs.

Honestly, why should a mech which dedicated 3-4 tons to maschineguns even remotely equal a pir-1 which is dedicating almost half it's weight for 120 meter max range yolo glasscannon playstyle.

Um...+100% MG rate of fire would mean that 6 Inner Sphere MGs would equal the damage output of the 12 clan MGs.

But since the I.S. machine guns are TWICE as heavy the tonnage investments for MG damage output would be IDENTICAL.

12 x .25 ton MGs is 3 tons 6 x .5 ton MGs is also 3 tons.

And any and all arguments about glass cannon(ness) goes for the Flea that since it will need to utilize an I.S. "suicide box" extralight engine has +6 total armor quirking between it and death over a PIR that can survive having it's side blown off and not be destroyed.

So 26 side torso armor + 10 structure would give the Flea 36 health before death while a PIR would have 60 health (both side torsos destroyed or 36 for CT cored out.

In addition the PIR-1 has it's ballistic hardpoints in the torsos while the Flea -FA has it's mounts in arms requiring you to retain significant armor to shield your primary weapon systems. The PIR-1 gets to strip it's arm armor for more precious ammo weight.

Even with +100% MG rate of fire quirk and it's +6 armor quirks for the torsos and legs the PIR-1 is the superior choice over a Flea - FA. the clan XL and torso MG mounts see to that as does the larger engine cap and compact endo steel,ferro fibrious,heatsinks and XL engine. Essentially even with the +100% rate of fire quirk the flea is inferior in many meaningful ways to a PIR-1.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 September 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

They have more then double the health of a clan variant.

I can not find any source listing a clan MG as having any less health than it's I.S. counterpart,but let's go with what you say.

At half the weight wouldn't half the health be reasonable?

I mean how many clan pilots would take the offer of "hey we can more than double the health of your machineguns but it will double the tonnage."

Probably ZERO.

Edited by Lykaon, 27 September 2018 - 08:39 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

I can not find any source listing a clan MG as having any less health than it's I.S. counterpart,but let's go with what you say.

At half the weight wouldn't half the health be reasonable?

I mean how many clan pilots would take the offer of "hey we can more than double the health of your machineguns but it will double the tonnage."

Probably ZERO.

100% would.
For your salty viewing pleasure. please try to stay informed.



Oh and these

Edited by Jackal Noble, 27 September 2018 - 09:08 PM.

[Lykaon]

Jackal Noble, on 27 September 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

100% would.
For your salty viewing pleasure. please try to stay informed.



Oh and these

Thanks I guess...?? were you not hugged enough as a child or are you just naturally as friendly as a viper?


So would you rather have .25 ton machine guns or 7.5 instead of 3.5 health machineguns?


I believe my point was that even if somehow a Flea was to be given a +100% MG RoF quirk there are many points still in favor of a PIR-1 being a superior choice.

I can list them... again.

Clan XL instead of I.S. XL (this largely removes any advantage gained by the Flea FA having +6 armor quirks on it's torso and legs) the ability to survive a side torso loss opens up many options late game that a Flea would not have (due to being dead) In addition the destroyed components grant some additional damage absorption in the form of a 50% transfer reduction Padding no I.S. mech with an XL engine can utilize (again because the mech is already dead)

7 crit endo steel and 7 crit Ferro fibrious as well as 2 crit DHS AND a more compact XL leaves a PIR with a great deal more available space.

180 engine cap (PIR) vs 170 engine cap (Flea) that is also a difference of an internal heatsink as well.

PIR-1 has side torso ballistic hardpoints while the Flea FA has it's hardpoints in the arms. Obviously this gives the PIR the option to strip arm armor for additional payload while the Flea must retain enough armor to protect it's weapons in the arms.

Clan non MG weapon options are just better for the tonnage. half ton flamers are a frequent choice on PIR-1s in addition to MGs. ER micro lasers/micro pulse,Hvy small lasers etc In addition to access to light TAG or light active probes.

Since a Flea will not likely be using Ferro and endo or at least not double heatsinks to make room for much if anything beyond the MGs and ammo (not enough crits for the payload) A PIR has many more options for supporting weapons and equipment and space to put it.

I would probably stick to the PIR-1 over a Flea FA even with 100% MG RoF quirks because it's just overall a better offering.

Edited by Lykaon, 27 September 2018 - 11:48 PM.

[dante245]

i think the flea just needs a machine gun rate of fire quirk and its good to go. its got fine hard points

[B L O O D W I T C H]

dante245, on 27 September 2018 - 11:59 PM, said:

i think the flea just needs a machine gun rate of fire quirk and its good to go. its got fine hard points

I think it's pretty good as it is, 6 machine guns + 3 er smalls on max engine. Instead of ROF quirks which again promotes boating, i would much rather see the flamer quirk being reformed to general laser or energy quirks, for example 20% cooldown.

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

So would you rather have .25 ton machine guns or 7.5 instead of 3.5 health machineguns?

I think he meant overall the performance of IS MG being better, not just the health.

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

Clan XL instead of I.S. XL (this largely removes any advantage gained by the Flea FA having +6 armor quirks on it's torso and legs) the ability to survive a side torso loss opens up many options late game that a Flea would not have (due to being dead) In addition the destroyed components grant some additional damage absorption in the form of a 50% transfer reduction Padding no I.S. mech with an XL engine can utilize (again because the mech is already dead)

7 crit endo steel and 7 crit Ferro fibrious as well as 2 crit DHS AND a more compact XL leaves a PIR with a great deal more available space.

The flea has additional armor padding over the the Pir to combat the IS XL issue.
Talking about raw stats, it's 12,5% more armor on the legs, 30% on the sidetorsos and 20% on the CT (this is with maxed out survival and all armor to front), we can discuss if this is actual enough to impact a real game.

What i do would like to mention is that the the nr 1 FLPD clan choice is double gauss, which does 30 damage, and a flea can survive a hit on the CT and on the ST. The nr 1 FLPD choice for IS is dual heavy gauss, which either kills or cripples any PIR regardless where it hits.
I obviously emphasize IS vs clan balance with a look toward faction (where you are locked into either side).

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

PIR-1 has side torso ballistic hardpoints while the Flea FA has it's hardpoints in the arms. Obviously this gives the PIR the option to strip arm armor for additional payload while the Flea must retain enough armor to protect it's weapons in the arms.

Clan non MG weapon options are just better for the tonnage. half ton flamers are a frequent choice on PIR-1s in addition to MGs. ER micro lasers/micro pulse,Hvy small lasers etc In addition to access to light TAG or light active probes.

Since a Flea will not likely be using Ferro and endo or at least not double heatsinks to make room for much if anything beyond the MGs and ammo (not enough crits for the payload) A PIR has many more options for supporting weapons and equipment and space to put it.

Good points. Although, it's on side of the coin.

I personally run my pir-1 without armor on the arms and on the cockpit so i can take enough ammo to last me through a wave (or a qp game), means, i am running pure MG with 5 tons of ammo plus both ammo nodes.
There is really not much tonnage for any sort of additional equipment, i could run a single half ton laser for half a ton of ammo. Any more and i would need to sacrifice ammo for armor or run lasers on the arms without armor.
Those are all tradeoffs, the flea isn't the only one who has to make compromises when choosing equipment.

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

I would probably stick to the PIR-1 over a Flea FA even with 100% MG RoF quirks because it's just overall a better offering.

The Thing is, in faction you just don't have the choice anymore. A lolwhat quirk like 100% RoF affects faction balance and gameplay a whole lot more then pure quickplay balance.

With a 100% RoF, the flea will outperform the pir-1 by a lot when it comes to purely ripping through armor, structure and internals.
With a 100% RoF, the flea is a whole lot better in Faction then the Pir-1. Again, The flea will be up against mechs with not only far less armor and structure quirks, but also with far less component health.
Please keep faction balance in mind before you think about hilarious quirks such as double RoF.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 28 September 2018 - 07:10 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Lykaon, on 27 September 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

Thanks I guess...?? were you not hugged enough as a child or are you just naturally as friendly as a viper?

both

[Chados]

Jackal Noble, on 27 September 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

The more posts I read of yours, the more I'm convinced you've lost your marbles.

Yeah?

Which is stronger: 8 IS MGs and one laser without weight to equip even a SRM2 without gimping your speed to under 81kph or 6 IS MGs, 3 ML, and MASC with speed of +130kph?

I’ll wait.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Chados, on 28 September 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yeah?

Which is stronger: 8 IS MGs and one laser without weight to equip even a SRM2 without gimping your speed to under 81kph or 6 IS MGs, 3 ML, and MASC with speed of +130kph?

I’ll wait.

Counterquestion,

Who would win, a bunch of salty IS assaults
or
one fishy boi?

Seriously tho, i have trouble understanding which point you want to make. Can you formulate it differently? I think you talk about a FLE-19 with IS tech but clan weight or something.

[JediPanther]

lct 3v with only 2mgs could use a 300% mg rof. Ember has 25% and you don't see it often either. Pretty much any is mech with 4mgs or less needs a 300% mg rof.

[VonBruinwald]

JediPanther, on 28 September 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

lct 3v with only 2mgs could use a 300% mg rof. Ember has 25% and you don't see it often either. Pretty much any is mech with 4mgs or less needs a 300% mg rof.

This guy gets it!

[B L O O D W I T C H]

JediPanther, on 28 September 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

lct 3v with only 2mgs could use a 300% mg rof. Ember has 25% and you don't see it often either. Pretty much any is mech with 4mgs or less needs a 300% mg rof.

Ember is a pretty juicy target for a facehugger.
I don't think that mechs sub 4 MGs should get RoF buffs, i think that 'mechs with more then 4 MGs should get dimishing returns.

[Jackal Noble]

Chados, on 28 September 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yeah?

Which is stronger: 8 IS MGs and one laser without weight to equip even a SRM2 without gimping your speed to under 81kph or 6 IS MGs, 3 ML, and MASC with speed of +130kph?

I’ll wait.

That was directed at Von, not you man. I have both the Flea and the Piranha and love them both. They are both phenomenal lights.

More firepower isn't always the best option. The Cougar is crying in the corner now.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 28 September 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

The whack thing about the 19 is that the Fire Ant actually does more DPS with 6x MG and 3x SL than the the 19 does with 8x MG and 1x SL. It's not by much, but since more of it is tied in the lasers on the FA than on the 19, you can increase that gap even more by dumping into firepower.

All because MGs are 1 DPS, and SLs are 1.08 DPS, and both 'Mechs have the same hardpoint count.

[Chados]

Jackal Noble, on 28 September 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

That was directed at Von, not you man. I have both the Flea and the Piranha and love them both. They are both phenomenal lights.

More firepower isn't always the best option. The Cougar is crying in the corner now.

Boy isn’t THAT the truth.

It’s all good, my man.